BongBongLand (Philippine) Discussion Thread

[Mundiferrum]

the problem isn't that he's impolite; the problem is more that he's so blase about death. he's basically inciting us all not just to rail against the establishment, which i don't agree with but isn't necessarily evil, but to rail against the deepest standards of good and evil by which our society is kept sane.

Okay, by which standards of morality are you referring to here? Because there are a lot of choose from depending on who you ask.

i'm not saying relativism is bad, but at the very least most standards of morality agree that killing people for no good reason is bad, and by a wide margin adult humans are people, and no good reason means no explicit support by the law, or at the very least by an institution that abuses the law.

hate against the EU? it might lead to economic ruin, which would destroy your point about "committing to positive change", but sure.

Yeah, no. Just because Euros aren't gonna be injected into the Philippine economy as much doesn't mean that the Philippines will end up in economic ruin within a few years. Presenting the notion that it will as fact is what Duterte has railed against the EU and the West in general--the argument that dependence on Western markets is vital for the survival of a nation's economy in the 21st century. Duterte's not saying that the Philippines will shut itself from the world, he says that it will survive even if the West will not help it with even the smallest penny. Besides, he could (and is) looking for other countries to partner up with economically.

*might*. i should have cut that out.

ignore all incentives to make this current drug war any less murderous, even if he's not directly responsible for all the deaths? might as well be responsible for those deaths, he's supposed to represent this entire nation.

He can't accept every single alternative to reduce the number of deaths either. That is just as irresponsible as "rejecting them all". If there should be a measure to reduce the number of deaths, I personally think that it should be done because it does good, not because it feels good.

but it's not about feeling good. the problem, as far as i can tell, runs deeper than whatever solutions he has so far proposed. a lot of the "self-defense" statements are shams, plain and simple. some of the police aren't exactly above that, considering the whole laglag bala issue that just affected the nation a few months ago, and there are a lot of news stories about criminals not resisting, or criminals not being criminals at all. who's to say this "some" isn't "most"? it's not a matter, i think, of him "accepting every single alternative to reduce the number of deaths", it's him listening not only to the EU but also to other countries that have or are undergoing the same situation (see: Colombia) to rethink his entire strategy, restructure the system, and maybe stop spouting out bullshit. my grandfather was a policeman at the time of *Marcos*, and as far as i can tell his work was far less shadier than the things happening now -- but this last point is anecdotal.

also, this is a pretty old article, but to add a bit of feeling to this response, see here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... .html?_r=1

[Mundiferrum]

Which is the main problem at hand. Lack of education equates to ignorance and eventual ignorance and apathy.
Should majority of the population remain uneducated, we will keep on falling for politicians promising to open the floodgates of heaven, accepting the almost-reactionary beliefs of the Catholic Church (because fully exposing yourself to sexually-transmitted diseases is a more "Christian" option than actually buying condoms... see the cancer that is the debate over the Rh bill.). If only a majority of the populace would be able to think for themselves effectively, then we would be able to put leaders with principle in power without tearing down our democracy.

They are thinking. They're just not thinking the way the intolerant liberal elite are thinking. They aren't bobotantes, they're thinking voters who have come to a different conclusion based on different factors many other people might not consider.

Education is one thing. Getting rid of this classism is another.

i think the irony is that if the majority of the population was educated by more western standards, then this complaint wouldn't exist. and yet it's the west that we want to leave -- europe especially, which is far less a country of idiots than america, and they're the continent we are explicitly leaving. it's not just classism: to be subjects is ingrained in our identity.

[Pasong Tirad]

Which is the main problem at hand. Lack of education equates to ignorance and eventual ignorance and apathy.
Should majority of the population remain uneducated, we will keep on falling for politicians promising to open the floodgates of heaven, accepting the almost-reactionary beliefs of the Catholic Church (because fully exposing yourself to sexually-transmitted diseases is a more "Christian" option than actually buying condoms... see the cancer that is the debate over the Rh bill.). If only a majority of the populace would be able to think for themselves effectively, then we would be able to put leaders with principle in power without tearing down our democracy.

Nope, even if the whole populace were educated, people will only vote for which propaganda machine suits their own self-interests, and they wouldn't care about the overall effect of the proposals of the politicians. They will only care about what makes them more privileged or which option will give them more money and a higher status symbol. It's inevitable.

Democracy is all about moving your propaganda machine in such a way that it will put your self-interest on top of anything while getting the majority to agree with you to lead the country.

Quite a dog-eat-dog worldview you have there.

[Victoriala II]

Man's a slave innit

[Pasong Tirad]

Man's a slave innit

Lola is a slave name.

[Emperio Maharlika]

Which is the main problem at hand. Lack of education equates to ignorance and eventual ignorance and apathy.
Should majority of the population remain uneducated, we will keep on falling for politicians promising to open the floodgates of heaven, accepting the almost-reactionary beliefs of the Catholic Church (because fully exposing yourself to sexually-transmitted diseases is a more "Christian" option than actually buying condoms... see the cancer that is the debate over the Rh bill.). If only a majority of the populace would be able to think for themselves effectively, then we would be able to put leaders with principle in power without tearing down our democracy.

Nope, even if the whole populace were educated, people will only vote for which propaganda machine suits their own self-interests, and they wouldn't care about the overall effect of the proposals of the politicians. They will only care about what makes them more privileged or which option will give them more money and a higher status symbol. It's inevitable.

Democracy is all about moving your propaganda machine in such a way that it will put your self-interest on top of anything while getting the majority to agree with you to lead the country.

Not all intelligent people are cold-hearted. You're basing your ideals on the stereotype that every person with high IQ just has to have the qualities of a supervillain.

[Kovacna]

"I'm not saying relativism is bad, but at the very least most standards of morality agree that killing people for no good reason is bad, and by a wide margin adult humans are people, and no good reason means no explicit support by the law, or at the very least by an institution that abuses the law."

I'm pretty sure the only reason why people are still living is because it's illegal to shoot them. That is, if it's not in the name of self-defence. Just because most standards of morality agrees that killing is "bad" doesn't mean that it's already bad. That's ad populum. The only reason why these "morals" and "laws" exist is simply to maintain a stable society that serves its own interests

"But it's not about feeling good. the problem, as far as i can tell, runs deeper than whatever solutions he has so far proposed. a lot of the "self-defense" statements are shams, plain and simple. some of the police aren't exactly above that, considering the whole laglag bala issue that just affected the nation a few months ago, and there are a lot of news stories about criminals not resisting, or criminals not being criminals at all. who's to say this "some" isn't "most"? it's not a matter, i think, of him "accepting every single alternative to reduce the number of deaths", it's him listening not only to the EU but also to other countries that have or are undergoing the same situation (see: Colombia) to rethink his entire strategy, restructure the system, and maybe stop spouting out bullshit. my grandfather was a policeman at the time of *Marcos*, and as far as i can tell his work was far less shadier than the things happening now -- but this last point is anecdotal"

The only reason why Duterte is ignoring these so-called "condemnations" is because he simply wants to ignite fear among the drug lords and the people. It is better to be feared than to be loved, because it would maintain a more stable leadership. It's just that the fear strategy needs to be reconstructed into something more effective, and he should take constructive advice from people who aren't like the bureaucratic EU idiots who think refugees have the right to impose their culture amongst their own people. Take the constructive advice privately from those who actually care about the country, not from those who only know how to criticise the current administration and topple any government they don't like. I totally believe that the opposition parties only want power and they only want to topple the current administration so they get back in power. All we need to have is that the end justifies the means, and that's what I believe Duterte should do. He should remember that if his methods fail, then we're in big trouble, while if his methods work (which would hopefully be done with alternatives that also invoke fear and discipline), then his methods are excusable. The end successfully justified the means.

"I think the irony is that if the majority of the population was educated by more western standards, then this complaint wouldn't exist. And yet it's the west that we want to leave -- Europe especially, which is far less a country of idiots than America, and they're the continent we are explicitly leaving. It's not just classism: to be subjects is ingrained in our identity."

No, in Western standards, we have left-right politics. It's all about having either a government implementing leftist policies which promote big taxes, big welfare systems, socialist wealth distribution and less economic freedom or we have a government that's pro-business that allows for free movement of goods and pro-market policies. People will only vote according to which policies, proposals and propaganda will suit their self-interests and feelings.

Take the 2017 French Elections for example. Voters there are relatively smarter and more educated than their American and Filipino counterparts. Vote buying isn't an issue there, the main issues there in the country were all about EU membership, unemployment rate, economic stagnation, mass migration, refugee policy and Islamization. People there only vote for which policy proposals will suit their self-interest and emotions, so if you're a worker who faces the threat of unemployment, you'd likely back leftist Jean-Luc Melenchon or FN leader Marine Le Pen who have protectionist proposals such as leaving the EU and having a protectionist trade policy. If you're the type of person who's dissatisfied with the status quo under Francois Hollande and want policy change, but are too easily offended over the rise of the Front National because "it had nazi roots" wherein it's not nazi anymore, then you'd likely vote Emmanuel Macron. If you're the type of person who wants to bring back the France First policy and are under the threat of unemployment, while also feeling threatened by mass migration and terrorist attacks, then you vote Le Pen. Each person from each side would basically try campaigning and pushing propaganda machines to pursue the political agenda that suits their self-interest at varying degrees, and you have to remember that voters only think of their own survival and status of living. Basically, they think about themselves.

Trust me, I've followed the election for the past 6 months.

"Quite a dog-eat-dog worldview you have there"

It's the reality. Life is basically survival of the fittest, and a competition of fulfilling your own interests first. It's not about being cold-hearted, it's just our natural instinct to think of ourselves first.

[Victoriala II]

we just eat shit and fuck don't make it so morally charged jesus fuck

[Saradena]

Duterte is going to ask Russia for precision bombs.

“It is difficult for us. So we have this ISIS thing. I’ve been scouting around for (a weapon to finish them off)… I’m going to Russia. Same purpose. If they can spare us the precision-guided (bombs)… we have so many smart bombs but not as accurate as the ones guided by laser or satellite,”

How long will it take until he realizes that we don't have any aircraft that is capable of mounting Russian smart bombs as of the moment.

[Saiwania]

What a splendid leader Duterte is proving to be. I have wild applause for his most recent action. I love his firm anti tobacco stance. No one is allowed to smoke in public spaces in the Philippines anymore under his watch. I heard he is giving violators 4 months in prison or $100 fine. Second hand smoke is going to be a thing of the past in the archipelago.

[Victoriala II]

well thank god for breathing down our neck

[Kubra]

can i still vape tho

[Kovacna]

What a splendid leader Duterte is proving to be. I have wild applause for his most recent action. I love his firm anti tobacco stance. No one is allowed to smoke in public spaces in the Philippines anymore under his watch. I heard he is giving violators 4 months in prison or $100 fine. Second hand smoke is going to be a thing of the past in the archipelago.

I'm waiting for stricter and harsher implementations so the law gets upheld more effectively.

[Victoriala II]

well thank god for breathing down our neck

[Springstile]

All hail Duterte! (Actually, hindi)

[Mundiferrum]

well thank god for breathing down our neck

you know, i must say i'm loving much of your commentary on all this

[Kovacna]

we just eat shit and fuck don't make it so morally charged jesus fuck

i'm not the one who promotes "logical secular morality" here lmao. in a secular perspective, i see nothing logical with the moral/ethical concepts

[Pasong Tirad]

you know, i must say i'm loving much of your commentary on all this

Vic's grown so much over the years. He should run a political comedy show and get called dilawan and dutertroll all night.

[Stormwrath]

i'm not saying relativism is bad, but at the very least most standards of morality agree that killing people for no good reason is bad, and by a wide margin adult humans are people, and no good reason means no explicit support by the law, or at the very least by an institution that abuses the law.

Okay, in that case, from where did those standards of morality get the idea that killing people for no good reason (aka murder) is wrong?

but it's not about feeling good. the problem, as far as i can tell, runs deeper than whatever solutions he has so far proposed. a lot of the "self-defense" statements are shams, plain and simple.

Yes, but you seem to conflate "a lot" with "every single fucking incident involving dead people".

some of the police aren't exactly above that, considering the whole laglag bala issue that just affected the nation a few months ago, and there are a lot of news stories about criminals not resisting, or criminals not being criminals at all.

Laglag-bala =/= EJKs. Even if they all turned out to be EJKs perpetrated entirely by police officers, we can't just simply blame Duterte and expect him to answer for all of that, despite what chain of command would imply here. No single leader is ever that specific, not even the hillbilly.

who's to say this "some" isn't "most"? it's not a matter, i think, of him "accepting every single alternative to reduce the number of deaths", it's him listening not only to the EU but also to other countries that have or are undergoing the same situation (see: Colombia) to rethink his entire strategy, restructure the system, and maybe stop spouting out bullshit.

He could, but he prefers that they'll just tell him to his face instead of morally grandstanding him in front of the press (looking at you, Callamard). Yes, valid concerns, but soapboxing the guy ain't gonna get your proposals anywhere.

How long will it take until he realizes that we don't have any aircraft that is capable of mounting Russian smart bombs as of the moment.

In Soviet Russia, smart bomb mounts you.

[Pasong Tirad]

some of the police aren't exactly above that, considering the whole laglag bala issue that just affected the nation a few months ago, and there are a lot of news stories about criminals not resisting, or criminals not being criminals at all.

Laglag-bala =/= EJKs. Even if they all turned out to be EJKs perpetrated entirely by police officers, we can't just simply blame Duterte and expect him to answer for all of that, despite what chain of command would imply here. No single leader is ever that specific, not even the hillbilly.

What a nice world we live in where what a leader says doesn't make him accountable for anything.

[Kovacna]

Laglag-bala =/= EJKs. Even if they all turned out to be EJKs perpetrated entirely by police officers, we can't just simply blame Duterte and expect him to answer for all of that, despite what chain of command would imply here. No single leader is ever that specific, not even the hillbilly.

What a nice world we live in where what a leader says doesn't make him accountable for anything.

Only actions count, not words. Words don't do anything, actions do.

[Pasong Tirad]

What a nice world we live in where what a leader says doesn't make him accountable for anything.

Only actions count, not words. Words don't do anything, actions do.

What the hell kind of mute world do you live in.

[Kovacna]

Only actions count, not words. Words don't do anything, actions do.

What the hell kind of mute world do you live in.

A completely normal world which is free of political correctness and where freedom of speech thrives.

[Pasong Tirad]

What the hell kind of mute world do you live in.

A completely normal world which is free of political correctness and where freedom of speech thrives.

Lol @ the "muh freedom of speech" argument, clearly showing your ignorance of how freedom of speech actually works.

[Kovacna]

A completely normal world which is free of political correctness and where freedom of speech thrives.

Lol @ the "muh freedom of speech" argument, clearly showing your ignorance of how freedom of speech actually works.

I believe that for leftists like you, freedom of speech is more like "i have freedom of speech as long as it doesn't hurt my fragile feelings" lmaooo