US passes UN vote banning Israeli settlements

[Ostehaar]

Yes, it probably has that right. It's not "at least" the two state solution - there is no right solution other than the two-state solution.

But then you hit right to return and it all goes to shit again.

No, there isn't a "right" of return. It's true that hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs left to neighboring Arab nations during the 1948 war - but at the same time, hundreds of thousands of Jews left those Arab nations and migrated into Israel. Israel took them in with arms wide open, of course, and they successfully rebuilt their lives in Israel. The Arabs who fled to Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon did not have a similar fate - those Arab countries put them into crowded camps and denied them basic human rights (did you know a Palestinian citizen's vote in Jordan is worth half the vote of Jordanian citizen?). The Arab world has been using the refugees as political cards against Israel for decades now.

[Panco Lune]

the 1967 borders are agreed upon by the UN, so it's got a defined territory. Insofar as the PA is the recognized governing body of the territory known as Palestine and not Hamas, it can and does have relations with other nation-states

The 1967 borders are considered a demarcation line as part of an armistice. They are not considered to be permanent borders.

And according to Wikipedia: "Hamas, its military wing, together with several charities it runs, has been designated as a terrorist organization by Israel (1989), the United States (1996), Canada (2002), the European Union (2001/2003), Japan (2006) and Egypt (2015), and was outlawed in Jordan (1999)."

So it can technically enter into relations with about half of the world, so I guess there's that. As far as most of the globally relevant countries are concerned, however, they are a terrorist organization.

HALF OF THE WORLD? buddy that is 7 Nations

[Kubra]

I was gonna say this.
I mean, one can understand why Israel doesn't want that, but similarly it's entirely understandable why the Palestinians insist on it.

Because it would destroy Israel as a coherent state and start us back at square one in 1947 with a civil war in the region between Arabs and Jews that would likely escalate into another regional conflict involving other Arab states?
I mean, yeah, it makes sense Israel wouldn't want that and Palestine would. It's not really a good thing, though.

Because the PLO is trying to represent Palestinian communities outside its recognized territory, because outside Palestine they're a hated minority relegated to ghetto's. Dropping the right to return is basically telling them "that's a wrap folks, have fun!"
Tho yeah that's about why the israeli's reject it
I mean, if Israel wants out of the right of return, it could always fund massive social housing initiatives in the west bank.

[Ostehaar]

HALF OF THE WORLD? buddy that is 7 Nations

...the European Union...

[Panco Lune]

HALF OF THE WORLD? buddy that is 7 Nations

...the European Union...

excuse me, 34 nations out of 193 do not make half of the world

[Kubra]

the 1967 borders are agreed upon by the UN, so it's got a defined territory. Insofar as the PA is the recognized governing body of the territory known as Palestine and not Hamas, it can and does have relations with other nation-states

The 1967 borders are considered a demarcation line as part of an armistice. They are not considered to be permanent borders.

And according to Wikipedia: "Hamas, its military wing, together with several charities it runs, has been designated as a terrorist organization by Israel (1989), the United States (1996), Canada (2002), the European Union (2001/2003), Japan (2006) and Egypt (2015), and was outlawed in Jordan (1999)."

So it can technically enter into relations with about half of the world, so I guess there's that. As far as most of the globally relevant countries are concerned, however, they are a terrorist organization.

they are considered borders insofar as everything on the Palestinians side is Palestinian turf, to be administrated by the PA. Sure, Hamas controls some turf, but I wasn't aware controlling some turf negated internationally recognized authority. It's the PA that sends UN observers, not Hamas.

[Ostehaar]

...the European Union...

excuse me, 34 nations out of 193 do not make half of the world

You're right - I wonder what Zimbabwe thinks about Hamas. Maybe North Korea. Iran?

[Panco Lune]

excuse me, 34 nations out of 193 do not make half of the world

You're right - I wonder what Zimbabwe thinks about Hamas. Maybe North Korea. Iran?

Are you saying they're not countries?

[Anastasia]

...the European Union...

excuse me, 34 nations out of 193 do not make half of the world

The EU is 28* nations, actually.


*27 if you discount the UK

[Ostehaar]

administrated by the PA. Sure, Hamas controls some turf, but I wasn't aware controlling some turf negated internationally recognized authority. It's the PA that sends UN observers, not Hamas.

The point is that the PA has no actual jurisdiction in the Gaza Strip. It can't "order" Hamas to stop launching rockets, for example, or commit to a certain diplomatic solution. There's no point negotiating with the PA when you know for a fact that Hamas can still do what it wants and oppose any agreement.

[Fartsniffage]

But then you hit right to return and it all goes to shit again.

No, there isn't a "right" of return. It's true that hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs left to neighboring Arab nations during the 1948 war - but at the same time, hundreds of thousands of Jews left those Arab nations and migrated into Israel. Israel took them in with arms wide open, of course, and they successfully rebuilt their lives in Israel. The Arabs who fled to Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon did not have a similar fate - those Arab countries put them into crowded camps and denied them basic human rights (did you know a Palestinian citizen's vote in Jordan is worth half the vote of Jordanian citizen?). The Arab world has been using the refugees as political cards against Israel for decades now.

You misunderstand. The right to return is the reason any talks between Israel and Palestine fall down. Palestine wants it and Israel will never grant it.

What the Israelis could do is to offer the Palestinians a lolhuge amount of money to be paid to those force to flee their homes during the creation of the state of Israel. But they never will because they don't think they did anything wrong and decades of Arab terrorism has hardened that into "fact".

[Panco Lune]

excuse me, 34 nations out of 193 do not make half of the world

The EU is 28* nations, actually.


*27 if you discount the UK

yes plus the other countries that classify hamas as a "terrorist organization"

[Crockerland]

I can answer concerning the settlements.

The West Bank is not occupied Palestinian territory, as, legally, for land to be occupied it must have been formerly the territory of a sovereign state. As "Palestine" was never a sovereign state, and Jordan has given up any claim to the land, it is not occupied. Neither the West Bank nor Gaza meet the standards for sovereign states. There are four qualifications for one to constitute a nation-state in international law: 1) a permanent population; 2) a defined territory; 3) government; and 4) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

The Palestinian Authority does not meet qualification #2, as it has yet to reach a territorial agreement with Israel, thus leaving its actual territory undefined.

Gaza, under Hamas, does not meet qualification #4, as many (if not most) countries consider Hamas to be a terrorist organization, and thus will not enter into relations with it as if it were a legitimate government.

Thus, as the West Bank is not occupied, Israel is simply building settlements in disputed territory.

the 1967 borders are agreed upon by the UN, so it's got a defined territory. Insofar as the PA is the recognized governing body of the territory known as Palestine and not Hamas, it can and does have relations with other nation-states

The 1967 borders were not between agreed upon borders between Israel and any Palestinian state, they were armistice lines between Israel and a coalition of hostile Arab nations (Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, and Syria); Egypt and Jordan do not maintain claims to the West Bank or Gaza strip today.

[Ostehaar]

You're right - I wonder what Zimbabwe thinks about Hamas. Maybe North Korea. Iran?

Are you saying they're not countries?

I'm saying that the majority of the pro-democratic world, which actually matters when discussing the international community, defines Hamas that way.

[Gauthier]

No, there isn't a "right" of return. It's true that hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs left to neighboring Arab nations during the 1948 war - but at the same time, hundreds of thousands of Jews left those Arab nations and migrated into Israel. Israel took them in with arms wide open, of course, and they successfully rebuilt their lives in Israel. The Arabs who fled to Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon did not have a similar fate - those Arab countries put them into crowded camps and denied them basic human rights (did you know a Palestinian citizen's vote in Jordan is worth half the vote of Jordanian citizen?). The Arab world has been using the refugees as political cards against Israel for decades now.

You misunderstand. The right to return is the reason any talks between Israel and Palestine fall down. Palestine wants it and Israel will never grant it.

What the Israelis could do is to offer the Palestinians a lolhuge amount of money to be paid to those force to flee their homes during the creation of the state of Israel. But they never will because they don't think they did anything wrong and decades of Arab terrorism has hardened that into "fact".

And any Israeli politician remotely progressive enough to consider doing so ends up dead like Rabin.

[Xeng He]

In reality it did nothing and the Israelis are continuing with their plans per usual.

Well, it's the U.N after all. It's impotency only match the one of the league of nations.

Enh, the UN's good is essentially as a charity organization. They do throw a lot of money towards things with real benefits such as food and shelter for refugees, for instance, and advocacy campaigns to convince people in places like Ethiopia not to do fucked up shit with their children. It can't act as a government, but it's not useless.

[Kubra]

administrated by the PA. Sure, Hamas controls some turf, but I wasn't aware controlling some turf negated internationally recognized authority. It's the PA that sends UN observers, not Hamas.

The point is that the PA has no actual jurisdiction in the Gaza Strip. It can't "order" Hamas to stop launching rockets, for example, or commit to a certain diplomatic solution. There's no point negotiating with the PA when you know for a fact that Hamas can still do what it wants and oppose any agreement.

a lot of countries have insurgencies wthat control significant territory, but we don't therefore say that the insurgents have partial sovereignty until they properly control all of it.

[Ostehaar]

You misunderstand. The right to return is the reason any talks between Israel and Palestine fall down. Palestine wants it and Israel will never grant it.

That's not entirely true. Talks between the parties also fell due to disagreement regarding Jerusalem and the question of ending the conflict. Israel had agreed to receive a small number of refugees in the past, and some Palestinian leaders agreed to that.

[Fartsniffage]

You misunderstand. The right to return is the reason any talks between Israel and Palestine fall down. Palestine wants it and Israel will never grant it.

That's not entirely true. Talks between the parties also fell due to disagreement regarding Jerusalem and the question of ending the conflict. Israel had agreed to receive a small number of refugees in the past, and some Palestinian leaders agreed to that.

You missed out the rest of my post. No opinion on that bit?

[Ostehaar]

The point is that the PA has no actual jurisdiction in the Gaza Strip. It can't "order" Hamas to stop launching rockets, for example, or commit to a certain diplomatic solution. There's no point negotiating with the PA when you know for a fact that Hamas can still do what it wants and oppose any agreement.

a lot of countries have insurgencies wthat control significant territory, but we don't therefore say that the insurgents have partial sovereignty until they properly control all of it.

The Gaza Strip is a special case because Hamas is not only an insurgency. It actually has a government that controls the strip de-facto and is capable of handling its own businesses and internal affairs. It doesn't need the PA for anything. The PA can't even send its people to the Gaza Strip. It's like saying that the UK can negotiate with other nation on the question of "should China recognize Taiwan" - It absolutely can't.

[Gauthier]

a lot of countries have insurgencies wthat control significant territory, but we don't therefore say that the insurgents have partial sovereignty until they properly control all of it.

The Gaza Strip is a special case because Hamas is not only an insurgency. It actually has a government that controls the strip de-facto and is capable of handling its own businesses and internal affairs. It doesn't need the PA for anything. The PA can't even send its people to the Gaza Strip. It's like saying that the UK can negotiate with other nation on the question of "should China recognize Taiwan" - It absolutely can't.

Yet everyone is more than happy to assuage collective guilt on the PA for whatever shit Hamas feels like doing on a particular day. Like blaming South Korea for whatever shit Kimmy pulls.

[Ostehaar]

You missed out the rest of my post. No opinion on that bit?

Such a solution has been offered before, if my memory serves. Anyway, it doesn't matter since the core issues will always be Jerusalem and the "end of the conflict" proclamation.

[Panco Lune]

Are you saying they're not countries?

I'm saying that the majority of the pro-democratic world, which actually matters when discussing the international community, defines Hamas that way.

so does the rest 156 countries

[Ostehaar]

The Gaza Strip is a special case because Hamas is not only an insurgency. It actually has a government that controls the strip de-facto and is capable of handling its own businesses and internal affairs. It doesn't need the PA for anything. The PA can't even send its people to the Gaza Strip. It's like saying that the UK can negotiate with other nation on the question of "should China recognize Taiwan" - It absolutely can't.

Yet everyone is more than happy to assuage collective guilt on the PA for whatever shit Hamas feels like doing on a particular day.

Umm... No, that doesn't happen. When Hamas is doing shit, Israel retaliates against Hamas.

[Gauthier]

Yet everyone is more than happy to assuage collective guilt on the PA for whatever shit Hamas feels like doing on a particular day.

Umm... No, that doesn't happen. When Hamas is doing shit, Israel retaliates against Hamas.

You have read this thread and the rants about how the Palestinians stuck in Gaza are just as responsible for Hamas doing shit as if they were manning the bottle rockets themselves right?