US passes UN vote banning Israeli settlements

[Ostehaar]

Why are listening to a person who clearly has no idea what is actually happening in the West Bank?

Why should we believe that you do?

Because I live a few minutes from there and can tell if there is or isn't mass immigration of Jews into the place?

[Imperializt Russia]

Why should we believe that you do?

Because I live a few minutes from there and can tell if there is or isn't mass immigration of Jews into the place?

Who said anything about mass immigration?

We're not talking about hundreds or even tens of thousands, we're pointing out that Israelis are moving into these disputed areas and creating new developments, which more Israelis move into.

[Renewed]

Why should we believe that you do?

Because I live a few minutes from there and can tell if there is or isn't mass immigration of Jews into the place?

how is what I said contradicting what you are saying?

[Ifreann]

I mean, some of them might, but that's not actually going to happen.

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Yes, hopefully.

Of course, hope is a mistake.

Hope, a mistake? Care to elaborate?

Have you seen this year? Everything is going to shit and everyone cool is dying.

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Well if they think they can get away with taking land by force and shipping in their own civilians until the rest of the world gives in and recognises it as Israeli territory then I imagine they might prefer to stick with that course.

Any land taken during a war, rightfully belongs to the nation who took it, especially if the nation did not start the war.

Sorry, the world has largely moved passed notions like this. Turns out that thinking that way just leads to more wars of conquest, and war is really shit and generally best avoided.

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Well if they think they can get away with taking land by force and shipping in their own civilians until the rest of the world gives in and recognises it as Israeli territory then I imagine they might prefer to stick with that course.

You're talking about "shipping in" as if the Israeli government forces people to move there. No, most Israelis are not insane and don't want to live in the West Bank.

I didn't mean "shipping in" to come off quite so literally.

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I mean, didn't the Soviets take control of the land they conquered in world War 2,

Before the UN Charter was signed? Yeah, for a while.

isn't Pakistan controlling land it took over in Kashmir,

I believe that the current state of Kashmir is a result of a UN negotiated ceasefire, so whatever parts of Kashmir Pakistan is controlling, it isn't because they took it by force and the world recognises that, it's because this is what the parties involves agreed to as conditions to stop hostilities. I don't know much about Kashmir, though.

and isn't Russia keeping the land it took from Ukraine.

Yes, but Russia is a permanent member of the Security Council, so they're hardly going to allow a resolution condemning themselves to pass. Besides which, Russia didn't just roll in with tanks and declare Crimea theirs by right of conquest. They faked a revolution by "local ethnic Russians". They tried to convince the world that Crimea just really wanted to be part of Russia, because that's how territory changes hands these days.

So if they can do it, why not Israel.

No one has any reason to let Israel get away with it.

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Well if they think they can get away with taking land by force and shipping in their own civilians until the rest of the world gives in and recognises it as Israeli territory then I imagine they might prefer to stick with that course.

Seems like the best and most sensible course of action. :^)

For Israel, sure. But the rest of the world isn't about to just give in and recognise land they took by force as theirs. Not yet at least.

[Ostehaar]

Because I live a few minutes from there and can tell if there is or isn't mass immigration of Jews into the place?

Who said anything about mass immigration?

We're not talking about hundreds or even tens of thousands, we're pointing out that Israelis are moving into these disputed areas and creating new developments, which more Israelis move into.

That is not the cause behind the growth of Jewish population in there. The cause is natural growth of the population centers already in.

[Uxupox]

Not really. They didn't interfere in the rural areas of Afghanistan but if you were in the cities then yea you were pretty fucked. Both are trash organizations.

They didn't interfere in the rural areas, because these areas already mostly subscribed to tenets of their ideology and probably supplied large numbers of native fighters. They were largely peasant tribes.
Or were otherwise economically useful, ie the poppy farmers.

They had little control and assigned Jirgas as a result. So in essence they didn't enforce their complete ideals on the rural population.

[Gondolaulus]

They didn't interfere in the rural areas, because these areas already mostly subscribed to tenets of their ideology and probably supplied large numbers of native fighters. They were largely peasant tribes.
Or were otherwise economically useful, ie the poppy farmers.

They had little control and assigned Jirgas as a result. So in essence they didn't enforce their complete ideals on the rural population.

Again, because as what IR said, they already had the interpretation of Islam as the Taliban. Deobandi Islam was pretty widespread there then.

[Uxupox]

They had little control and assigned Jirgas as a result. So in essence they didn't enforce their complete ideals on the rural population.

Again, because as what IR said, they already had the interpretation of Islam as the Taliban. Deobandi Islam was pretty widespread there then.

Yea it was but it was no the strict interpretation expressed and embraced by the Taliban.

[Renewed]

Any land taken during a war, rightfully belongs to the nation who took it, especially if the nation did not start the war.

Sorry, the world has largely moved passed notions like this. Turns out that thinking that way just leads to more wars of conquest, and war is really shit and generally best avoided.

So what you are saying is that:

Arabs can go to war against Israel
Israel can defend itself, but cannot keep the land it takes doing so.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

Hope, a mistake? Care to elaborate?

Have you seen this year? Everything is going to shit and everyone cool is dying.

Ahem, fair point.

[Saiwania]

The majority of the Gaza Palestinians support it, even the Gaza Authority. However, it's Netanyahu and Hamas cockblocking the initiative.

Netanyahu is not going to support any permanent peace with Palestine until Hamas at least decides to finally relent and recognize Israel's right to exist. He is a no nonsense Israeli nationalist whose heart is hardened from past experiences of the Palestinian side continually provoking war with Israel by violating the terms of any agreements they've reached on many occasions. He has no reason to believe that Gaza can be trusted to do as they say they will with regards to keeping the peace, and thus is going to take whatever measures he deems necessary to keep Israel safe.

[Ostehaar]

Because I live a few minutes from there and can tell if there is or isn't mass immigration of Jews into the place?

how is what I said contradicting what you are saying?

I'll repeat the course of the discussion since there seems to be some misunderstanding.
Renewed said that Jews escape the European antisemitism and therefore move to the West Bank.
You responded to him that it only causes more hatred etc.
All I said is that Renewed was wrong. The settlements don't rely on antisemitism to grow - it's all due to natural growth.

[Gondolaulus]

Again, because as what IR said, they already had the interpretation of Islam as the Taliban. Deobandi Islam was pretty widespread there then.

Yea it was but it was no the strict interpretation expressed and embraced by the Taliban.

Actually, many Taliban leaders were influenced by Deobandi scholars and the Deobandi scholars supported the Taliban (page 33 lower)

[Renewed]

how is what I said contradicting what you are saying?

I'll repeat the course of the discussion since there seems to be some misunderstanding.
Renewed said that Jew escape the European antisemitism and therefore move to the West Bank.
You responded to him that it only causes more hatred etc.
All I said is that Renewed was wrong. The settlement don't rely on antisemitism to grow - it's all due to natural growth.

I was not targeting the settlements in particular.I tried to say the population of Israel is increasing rapidly, so more land is needed.

[Ifreann]

Any land taken during a war, rightfully belongs to the nation who took it, especially if the nation did not start the war.

Sorry, the world has largely moved passed notions like this. Turns out that thinking that way just leads to more wars of conquest, and war is really shit and generally best avoided.

So what you are saying is that:

Arabs can go to war against Israel
Israel can defend itself, but cannot keep the land it takes doing so.

Pretty much, yeah. Obviously the instances of "can" and "cannot" need qualification, but to put it simply, Israel doesn't get a bigger country because their neighbours attacked them.

[Uxupox]

Yea it was but it was no the strict interpretation expressed and embraced by the Taliban.

Actually, many Taliban leaders were influenced by Deobandi scholars and the Deobandi scholars supported the Taliban (page 33 lower)

I never disputed that didn't follow Deobandi but it is also characterized by their ethical life style known as the Pashtunwali. A Muslim who follows the deobandi interpretation of Islam has a very different onset than a Muslim for Pakistan or Afghanistan for example.

[Renewed]

Any land taken during a war, rightfully belongs to the nation who took it, especially if the nation did not start the war.

Sorry, the world has largely moved passed notions like this. Turns out that thinking that way just leads to more wars of conquest, and war is really shit and generally best avoided.

So what you are saying is that:

Arabs can go to war against Israel
Israel can defend itself, but cannot keep the land it takes doing so.

Pretty much, yeah. Obviously the instances of "can" and "cannot" need qualification, but to put it simply, Israel doesn't get a bigger country because their neighbours attacked them.

Some logic

[Uxupox]

Any land taken during a war, rightfully belongs to the nation who took it, especially if the nation did not start the war.

Sorry, the world has largely moved passed notions like this. Turns out that thinking that way just leads to more wars of conquest, and war is really shit and generally best avoided.

So what you are saying is that:

Arabs can go to war against Israel
Israel can defend itself, but cannot keep the land it takes doing so.

Pretty much, yeah. Obviously the instances of "can" and "cannot" need qualification, but to put it simply, Israel doesn't get a bigger country because their neighbours attacked them.

Maybe next time they should have been successful at "driving the Jews back to the sea" instead of opting for complete failure by military operation standards and getting their ass kicked by a little tiny country.

[Alvecia]

Any land taken during a war, rightfully belongs to the nation who took it, especially if the nation did not start the war.

Sorry, the world has largely moved passed notions like this. Turns out that thinking that way just leads to more wars of conquest, and war is really shit and generally best avoided.

So what you are saying is that:

Arabs can go to war against Israel
Israel can defend itself, but cannot keep the land it takes doing so.

It's not really a matter of can or cannot, though, is it?
There's nothing really stopping them from taking and keeping land apart from the military force of the opposing side.
Whether or not their claim to the land is internationally recognised is a different matter altogether.

[Gondolaulus]

Actually, many Taliban leaders were influenced by Deobandi scholars and the Deobandi scholars supported the Taliban (page 33 lower)

I never disputed that didn't follow Deobandi but it is also characterized by their ethical life style known as the Pashtunwali. A Muslim who follows the deobandi interpretation of Islam has a very different onset than a Muslim for Pakistan or Afghanistan for example.

That doesn't mean that the village religious law would be softer than that of the Taliban. Both held Pashtunwali in high regard (in regards of Pashto people).

[Imperializt Russia]

Again, because as what IR said, they already had the interpretation of Islam as the Taliban. Deobandi Islam was pretty widespread there then.

Yea it was but it was no the strict interpretation expressed and embraced by the Taliban.

Well, the Taliban as we know it in the west, was co-opted from a pre-existing Afghan movement of Islamic scholars, as its name literally means "the students" or some such.

[Saiwania]

Whether or not their claim to the land is internationally recognised is a different matter altogether.

The longer land is held onto by a sovereign nation even if disputed, the more likely it is that it will be internationally recognized as apart of that nation.

This is sort of what happened with China. The rest of the world could plainly see that the PRC controls all of the mainland and despite Taiwan's objections, that is the reality on the ground. China became so important as a nation, that every country which wanted to trade with them or establish ties, just went ahead and recognized the PRC as the legitimate government of China. Taiwan was abandoned because they could be seen as having significantly less power and leverage, thus are not worth keeping as an ally if it comes at the expense of cooperation with a world power.

[Uxupox]

Yea it was but it was no the strict interpretation expressed and embraced by the Taliban.

Well, the Taliban as we know it in the west, was co-opted from a pre-existing Afghan movement of Islamic scholars, as its name literally means "the students" or some such.

Well it was originally formed by scholars and most its supporters were students who were angry so yea.

[Uxupox]

I never disputed that didn't follow Deobandi but it is also characterized by their ethical life style known as the Pashtunwali. A Muslim who follows the deobandi interpretation of Islam has a very different onset than a Muslim for Pakistan or Afghanistan for example.

That doesn't mean that the village religious law would be softer than that of the Taliban. Both held Pashtunwali in high regard (in regards of Pashto people).

The village law would completely depend on the village elder in regards to his interpretation it could be as strict as the Taliban itself or it could be very lax in comparison.

[Frank Zipper]

Trump has apparently told Israel to stay strong until he is president. Though who knows what the hell that means.