Islamic Discussion Thread ٣

[El-Amin Caliphate]

By "everyone else" you mean who?

Everyone who isn't in your religion.

1: How do you know that everyone who isn't Muslim opposes Shari'ah? Or at least, that punishment?
2: Why should a Muslim care about the negative thoughts a non-Musim has about Al-Islam? As in, why should I care that a non-Muslim says "Islam is >insert negative adjective here<" or "Shari'ah is >insert negative adjective here<" or "That punishment is >insert negative adjective here<?"

[Aillyria]

There is a punishment for sodomy, not homosexuality.

There is a punishment for homosexuality, but it's implied, not directly expressed: http://legacy.quran.com/24/2

But isn't the punishment for sodomy, in the hadith, not the Quran?

Had to look up what sodomy was. Technically, oral sex is not haram in Al-Islam as there isn't an ayah nor hadith about it afaik, but most of the ulama say it is discouraged.

1.) The verse prohibits premarital sex....not homosexuality....
I mean you could make the case that homosexuals can't be married under Islam, but you'd need a another verse to substantify that.

2.) Sodomy also refers to anal sex as well, I'm pretty sure there are hadith against that. But idk, I'm not well versed on the hadith like that.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Everyone who isn't in your religion.

1: How do you know that everyone who isn't Muslim opposes Shari'ah? Or at least, that punishment?
2: Why should a Muslim care about the negative thoughts a non-Musim has about Al-Islam? As in, why should I care that a non-Muslim says "Islam is >insert negative adjective here<" or "Shari'ah is >insert negative adjective here<" or "That punishment is >insert negative adjective here<?"

Holy shit, the nitpicking you do.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

There is a punishment for homosexuality, but it's implied, not directly expressed: http://legacy.quran.com/24/2

Had to look up what sodomy was. Technically, oral sex is not haram in Al-Islam as there isn't an ayah nor hadith about it afaik, but most of the ulama say it is discouraged.

1.) The verse prohibits premarital sex....not homosexuality....

Not to me.

I mean you could make the case that homosexuals can't be married under Islam, but you'd need a another verse to substantify that.

Homosexuals can't get married.

2.) Sodomy also refers to anal sex as well, I'm pretty sure there are hadith against that. But idk, I'm not well versed on the hadith like that.

True, and yes, Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) prohibited anal sex: https://sunnah.com/abudawud/30/1

[Aillyria]

1.) The verse prohibits premarital sex....not homosexuality....

Not to me.

I mean you could make the case that homosexuals can't be married under Islam, but you'd need a another verse to substantify that.

Homosexuals can't get married.

1.) How?
2.) Quranic verse or I call BS.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Not to me.

Homosexuals can't get married.

1.) How?

24:2 says "for those found guilty of Illegal sexual intercourse...", not just fornication

2.) Quranic verse or I call BS.

The story of Lut (AS) and surah 24, ayah 2

[Conserative Morality]

Isn't Islam big on using reason in the interpretation of Allah's will?

[Kubumba Tribe]

Isn't Islam big on using reason in the interpretation of Allah's will?

Yeah, kinda. As long as the interpretation isn't so far off the Deen.

[Al-Ismailiyya]

Isn't Islam big on using reason in the interpretation of Allah's will?

Depends on the sect. Mine puts a particular emphasis on it.

[The Eternal Aulus]

There is a punishment for sodomy, not homosexuality.

There is a punishment for homosexuality, but it's implied, not directly expressed: http://legacy.quran.com/24/2

But isn't the punishment for sodomy, in the hadith, not the Quran?

Had to look up what sodomy was. Technically, oral sex is not haram in Al-Islam as there isn't an ayah nor hadith about it afaik, but most of the ulama say it is discouraged.

The verse condems premarital sex, not homosexuality. Daily reminder that sodomy is haraam no matter the sexual orientation (including heterosexual)

Isn't Islam big on using reason in the interpretation of Allah's will?

Depends per denomination tbh. Atharis take the Quran to the Word (ie God has an actual hand which intervenes), while Ashari take things usually symbolically but reject analytical reason, while Maturidi take things usually symbolically and accept analytical reason. That's all in Sunnism.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

There is a punishment for homosexuality, but it's implied, not directly expressed: http://legacy.quran.com/24/2

Had to look up what sodomy was. Technically, oral sex is not haram in Al-Islam as there isn't an ayah nor hadith about it afaik, but most of the ulama say it is discouraged.

The verse condems premarital sex, not homosexuality. Daily reminder that sodomy is haraam no matter the sexual orientation (including heterosexual)

Ok, but sodomy includes homosexual sex, right?

Isn't Islam big on using reason in the interpretation of Allah's will?

Depends per denomination tbh. Atharis take the Quran to the Word (ie God has an actual hand which intervenes), while Ashari take things usually symbolically but reject analytical reason, while Maturidi take things usually symbolically and accept analytical reason. That's all in Sunnism.

We need both taqlid and ijtihad tbh.

[The Eternal Aulus]

The verse condems premarital sex, not homosexuality. Daily reminder that sodomy is haraam no matter the sexual orientation (including heterosexual)

Ok, but sodomy includes homosexual sex, right?

It does, homosexual intercourse is haraam no doubt. But feeling attracted to males isn't haram afaik.

And Allah knows best.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Ok, but sodomy includes homosexual sex, right?

It does, homosexual intercourse is haraam no doubt. But feeling attracted to males isn't haram afaik.

Well yeah, I know that. I said "homosexual sex", not being attracted to the same sex.

[The Eternal Aulus]

It does, homosexual intercourse is haraam no doubt. But feeling attracted to males isn't haram afaik.

Well yeah, I know that. I said "homosexual sex", not being attracted to the same sex.

There is a punishment for homosexuality, but it's implied, not directly expressed: http://legacy.quran.com/24/2

of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Well yeah, I know that. I said "homosexual sex", not being attracted to the same sex.

There is a punishment for homosexuality, but it's implied, not directly expressed: http://legacy.quran.com/24/2

of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex

My apologies, I meant to say "homosexual sex"

[The Eternal Aulus]

of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex

My apologies, I meant to say "homosexual sex"

No problem, it clears things up

[Aillyria]

Isn't Islam big on using reason in the interpretation of Allah's will?

Depends on the sect. Mine puts a particular emphasis on it.

Early muslim scholars and philosophers were very rational in their interpretation. I personally think it is very important, but not the whole picture, you can't lose the soul to analyticism.

[Al-Ismailiyya]

Depends on the sect. Mine puts a particular emphasis on it.

Early muslim scholars and philosophers were very rational in their interpretation. I personally think it is very important, but not the whole picture, you can't lose the soul to analyticism.

Not sure what you mean exactly by "lose the soul to analyticism"?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Early muslim scholars and philosophers were very rational in their interpretation. I personally think it is very important, but not the whole picture, you can't lose the soul to analyticism.

Not sure what you mean exactly by "lose the soul to analyticism"?

Using analyticism so much that one commits bid'ah.

[Aillyria]

Not sure what you mean exactly by "lose the soul to analyticism"?

Using analyticism so much that one commits bid'ah.

Yes, essentially.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Alcohol is universally banned in Islam.

Is it? Then why does the Hanafi school of jurisprudence, the largest among Sunni Muslims, permit alcohol derived by means of honey, barley, wheat and millet such as whisky, beer and vodka?

https://muslimmatters.org/2017/02/15/is ... nafi-fiqh/

[Al-Ismailiyya]

Is it? Then why does the Hanafi school of jurisprudence, the largest among Sunni Muslims, permit alcohol derived by means of honey, barley, wheat and millet such as whisky, beer and vodka?

https://muslimmatters.org/2017/02/15/is ... nafi-fiqh/

Ibn Rushid explained it as "In their argument by way of reasoning they said that the Koran has explicitly laid down that the Illa (underlying cause) of prohibition of khamr (wine) is that it prevents the remembrance of God and breeds enmity and hatred…[this is] found only in a certain quantity of the intoxicating liquor not in what is less than that; it follows therefore that only this quantity be prohibited."

https://www.central-mosque.com/index.ph ... lings.html

And then Hanafi himself limited it to grapes in his Sharh Sahih Muslim.

[Hindia Belanda]

Leading Indonesian Muslim scholar and Secretary-General of the largest Sunni muslim organisation in the country said the following in an interview with a German newspaper:

"Western politicians should stop pretending that extremism and terrorism have nothing to do with Islam. The West must stop ascribing any and all discussion of these issues to “Islamophobia.” Or do people want to accuse me—an Islamic scholar—of being an Islamophobe, too?"

Original article in German
Another source: Stop Pretending Islam and Violence Aren’t Linked

I know the interview happened quite a while ago, but I just found out about it. I fully agree with everything the guy said and I think more muslim scholars need to adopt his viewpoint and start working on a new, progressive interpretation of Islam.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Leading Indonesian Muslim scholar and Secretary-General of the largest Sunni muslim organisation in the country said the following in an interview with a German newspaper:

"Western politicians should stop pretending that extremism and terrorism have nothing to do with Islam. The West must stop ascribing any and all discussion of these issues to “Islamophobia.” Or do people want to accuse me—an Islamic scholar—of being an Islamophobe, too?"

Original article in German
Another source: Stop Pretending Islam and Violence Aren’t Linked

I know the interview happened quite a while ago, but I just found out about it. I fully agree with everything the guy said and I think more muslim scholars need to adopt his viewpoint and start working on a new, progressive interpretation of Islam.

Terrorism has nothing to do with Al-Islam.
And we should follow the intepretation of the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS), not some 'modern' interpretation.

[Pilarcraft]

Leading Indonesian Muslim scholar and Secretary-General of the largest Sunni muslim organisation in the country said the following in an interview with a German newspaper:

"Western politicians should stop pretending that extremism and terrorism have nothing to do with Islam. The West must stop ascribing any and all discussion of these issues to “Islamophobia.” Or do people want to accuse me—an Islamic scholar—of being an Islamophobe, too?"

Original article in German
Another source: Stop Pretending Islam and Violence Aren’t Linked

I know the interview happened quite a while ago, but I just found out about it. I fully agree with everything the guy said and I think more muslim scholars need to adopt his viewpoint and start working on a new, progressive interpretation of Islam.

consider this: Wahabism and Salafism was the Islamic version of the religious reform. I don't think we're gonna appreciate yet another reform from you guys