Islamic Discussion Thread ٣

[Genivaria]

Islam and religion in general are an affront to freedom.

"Freedom", isn't a virtue. People don't seem to realize that.

Of course it is, tyranny however is something to be opposed.

[The East Marches II]

Well, the Western Left did work long and hard to destroy its original connection with the Western working class.

Other way around. The working class used to stand with the oppressed and marginalized instead of demanding they be crushed like insects to suit some nostalgic jerk-off fantasy of the past.

555-come-on-now

[Aillyria]

"Freedom", isn't a virtue. People don't seem to realize that.

Of course it is, tyranny however is something to be opposed.

Tyranny should be opposed, yes. However, liberty and freedom are not the samething.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Islam and religion in general are an affront to freedom.

[Northern Davincia]

Of course it is, tyranny however is something to be opposed.

Tyranny should be opposed, yes. However, liberty and freedom are not the samething.

Am I hearing that correctly?

[New haven america]

Of course it is, tyranny however is something to be opposed.

Tyranny should be opposed, yes. However, liberty and freedom are not the samething.

Yes, they actually kinda are.

[Hakons]

Islam and religion in general are an affront to freedom.

"Freedom", isn't a virtue. People don't seem to realize that.

Yes. Freedom has the capacity for virtue, but it also has great capacity for vice and evil.

[Genivaria]

"Freedom", isn't a virtue. People don't seem to realize that.

Yes. Freedom has the capacity for virtue, but it also has great capacity for vice and evil.

I'd argue the same can be said of both the values of Order and Equality.

[Hakons]

Yes. Freedom has the capacity for virtue, but it also has great capacity for vice and evil.

I'd argue the same can be said of both the values of Order and Equality.

Yep. Order can enforce an evil status quo and equality can be used to unjustly harm certain classes.

This is why we have a morality that ensures that we do virtue with our freedoms, enforce good and justice with our order, and encourage charity to make equality. That is our morality, but it is hard to live up to it.

[Aillyria]

Tyranny should be opposed, yes. However, liberty and freedom are not the samething.

Yes, they actually kinda are.

Eh....not quite, at least not how I understand it. I identify the term "freedom" with the concept of negative liberty, and "liberty" with positive liberty.

[New haven america]

Yes, they actually kinda are.

Eh....not quite, at least not how I understand it. I identify the term "freedom" with the concept of negative liberty, and "liberty" with positive liberty.

Freedom is the ability to speak, act, or think without hindrance or restraint. Liberty is being free within an area or society to act, speak, or think as one pleases (Or, to put it shortly: Being free, having freedom, etc...).

They're basically the same thing.

[Aillyria]

Eh....not quite, at least not how I understand it. I identify the term "freedom" with the concept of negative liberty, and "liberty" with positive liberty.

Freedom is the ability to speak, act, or think without hindrance or restraint. Liberty is being free within an area or society to act, speak, or think as one pleases (Or, to put it shortly: Being free, having freedom, etc...).

They're basically the same thing,

I guess.

[Pilarcraft]

I honestly still don't have an answer on whether or not Islam finds Slavery Immoral or not, to be honest.
I am not asking you, the Muslims, whether or not you find it Immoral (I don't really care, but hope you all do find it immoral), but whether or not Islam and it's Shar' find it Immoral. Please, bring me reference from Sunnat and Quran for whatever your answers are.

[Salus Maior]

Islam and religion in general are an affront to freedom.

What is freedom?

[Pilarcraft]

Islam and religion in general are an affront to freedom.

What is freedom?

this totally isn't a GOTCHA! argument.

[Salus Maior]

What is freedom?

this totally isn't a GOTCHA! argument.

What do you mean?

[Salus Maior]

Eh....not quite, at least not how I understand it. I identify the term "freedom" with the concept of negative liberty, and "liberty" with positive liberty.

Freedom is the ability to speak, act, or think without hindrance or restraint. Liberty is being free within an area or society to act, speak, or think as one pleases (Or, to put it shortly: Being free, having freedom, etc...).

They're basically the same thing.

Except that nobody believes that people should be allowed the ability to speak or act without constraint. You can't yell 'FIRE' in a crowded building as a joke, you can't rally people into a mob to lynch a certain race, you can't slander people, etc.

In your definition freedom is incredibly undesirable.

[New haven america]

Freedom is the ability to speak, act, or think without hindrance or restraint. Liberty is being free within an area or society to act, speak, or think as one pleases (Or, to put it shortly: Being free, having freedom, etc...).

They're basically the same thing.

Except that nobody believes that people should be allowed the ability to speak or act without constraint. You can't yell 'FIRE' in a crowded building as a joke, you can't rally people into a mob to lynch a certain race, you can't slander people, etc.

In your definition freedom is incredibly undesirable.

You actually can do all those things, it's just that in most places you'll likely face some form of punishment afterwards.

You can still do those things though, and if you don't fear repercussions then there's nothing stopping you.

[Pilarcraft]

Except that nobody believes that people should be allowed the ability to speak or act without constraint. You can't yell 'FIRE' in a crowded building as a joke, you can't rally people into a mob to lynch a certain race, you can't slander people, etc.

In your definition freedom is incredibly undesirable.

You actually can do all those things, it's just that in most places you'll likely face some form of punishment afterwards.

You can still do those things though

and typically, the consequences to these actions are only relevant when it's a matter of comparing your right to free speech and another person's right to life. (or some other fundamental right that is more important than speech)

[Salus Maior]

Except that nobody believes that people should be allowed the ability to speak or act without constraint. You can't yell 'FIRE' in a crowded building as a joke, you can't rally people into a mob to lynch a certain race, you can't slander people, etc.

In your definition freedom is incredibly undesirable.

You actually can do all those things, it's just that in most places you'll likely face some form of punishment afterwards.

You can still do those things though, and if you don't fear repercussions then there's nothing stopping you.

That's law in general.

Likewise, if you're in Indonesia you can commit blasphemy. You'll just get punished for it afterwards most likely.

[Aellex]

Tyranny should be opposed, yes. However, liberty and freedom are not the samething.

Yes, they actually kinda are.

Liberty, as in the Roman concept of Libertas (the most widespread of both in Europe) isn't indeed the same thing as the Anglo-Saxon notion of Freedom despite the later developing from the former to some extent.

[Al-Ismailiyya]

I honestly still don't have an answer on whether or not Islam finds Slavery Immoral or not, to be honest.
I am not asking you, the Muslims, whether or not you find it Immoral (I don't really care, but hope you all do find it immoral), but whether or not Islam and it's Shar' find it Immoral. Please, bring me reference from Sunnat and Quran for whatever your answers are.

Quran 9:60 - "Zakah expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing slaves and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise."

5:89 - "Allah will not impose blame upon you for what is meaningless in your oaths, but He will impose blame upon you for [breaking] what you intended of oaths. So its expiation is the feeding of ten needy people from the average of that which you feed your [own] families or clothing them or the freeing of a slave. But whoever cannot find [or afford it] - then a fast of three days [is required]. That is the expiation for oaths when you have sworn. But guard your oaths. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be grateful."

2:177 - "Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous."

Quran 24:33 - "But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess - then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you."

Quran 90:12-13 - "And what can make you know what is [breaking through] the difficult pass?

It is the freeing of a slave."

[Bhikkustan]

You actually can do all those things, it's just that in most places you'll likely face some form of punishment afterwards.

You can still do those things though, and if you don't fear repercussions then there's nothing stopping you.

That's law in general.

Likewise, if you're in Indonesia you can commit blasphemy. You'll just get punished for it afterwards most likely.

"There is freedom of speech. I cannot promise freedom after speech - Idi Amin

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I honestly still don't have an answer on whether or not Islam finds Slavery Immoral or not, to be honest.
I am not asking you, the Muslims, whether or not you find it Immoral (I don't really care, but hope you all do find it immoral), but whether or not Islam and it's Shar' find it Immoral. Please, bring me reference from Sunnat and Quran for whatever your answers are.

Quran 9:60 - "Zakah expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing slaves and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise."

5:89 - "Allah will not impose blame upon you for what is meaningless in your oaths, but He will impose blame upon you for [breaking] what you intended of oaths. So its expiation is the feeding of ten needy people from the average of that which you feed your [own] families or clothing them or the freeing of a slave. But whoever cannot find [or afford it] - then a fast of three days [is required]. That is the expiation for oaths when you have sworn. But guard your oaths. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be grateful."

2:177 - "Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous."

Quran 24:33 - "But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess - then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you."

Quran 90:12-13 - "And what can make you know what is [breaking through] the difficult pass?

It is the freeing of a slave."

Assalamu 'Alaikum
Al-Islam does say that freeing slaves is a blessing and it's part of Shari'ah, but what Al-Islam does not say is that slavery is haram. That doesn't mean slaves should be mistreated though, as mistreatment of anyone is wrong and slaves shouldn't be burdened with more than they can bear. In short, slaves should be treated with kindness and honor.

That's law in general.

Likewise, if you're in Indonesia you can commit blasphemy. You'll just get punished for it afterwards most likely.

"There is freedom of speech. I cannot promise freedom after speech - Idi Amin

1 of the worst dictators in the world.
Asslamu 'Alaikum Bhikkustan. I like your flag

[Al-Ismailiyya]

Quran 9:60 - "Zakah expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing slaves and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise."

5:89 - "Allah will not impose blame upon you for what is meaningless in your oaths, but He will impose blame upon you for [breaking] what you intended of oaths. So its expiation is the feeding of ten needy people from the average of that which you feed your [own] families or clothing them or the freeing of a slave. But whoever cannot find [or afford it] - then a fast of three days [is required]. That is the expiation for oaths when you have sworn. But guard your oaths. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be grateful."

2:177 - "Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous."

Quran 24:33 - "But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess - then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you."

Quran 90:12-13 - "And what can make you know what is [breaking through] the difficult pass?

It is the freeing of a slave."

Assalamu 'Alaikum
Al-Islam does say that freeing slaves is a blessing and it's part of Shari'ah, but what Al-Islam does not say is that slavery is haram. That doesn't mean slaves should be mistreated though, as mistreatment of anyone is wrong and slaves shouldn't be burdened with more than they can bear. In short, slaves should be treated with kindness and honor.

Wa alaykum assalam.

Or slavery can be recognised as the abhorrent practice it is and that it has no place at all in the modern day.