Islamic Discussion Thread ٣

[Genivaria]

Is it bad that you reminded me of this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRujuE-GIY4

is this a recording of Pope Leo X's reaction to Martin Luther

Probably accurate yeah.

[War Gears]

He also married a nine year old, so....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZRKaHS7YQc

"A 9 year old of 1400 years ago is like a 16 - 17 year old intellectually and biologically of our times."

No, it's not. A 9 year old has not even fucking undergone puberty.

Also, most people understand that the times were different back then. The problem is that you can't exactly use that defense when you claim to get visions from an omniscient and omnipotent being who transcends space and time.

[Pilarcraft]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZRKaHS7YQc

"A 9 year old of 1400 years ago is like a 16 - 17 year old intellectually and biologically of our times."

No, it's not. A 9 year old has not even fucking undergone puberty.

Also, most people understand that the times were different back then. The problem is that you can't exactly use that defense when you claim to get visions from an omniscient and omnipotent being who transcends space and time.

which is exactly my biggest problem with Islam (and any religion that claims it has a figure that transcends time and space)

Muhammad was not a beacon of morality, even for 1400 years ago. generally, it wouldn't be a problem, but when you put him on a pedestal, make him an Uswa (an idol for all to follow), you'd expect the dude to have the common fucking decency not to fucking marry a girl less than a fifth of his age (among other atrocities, like authorizing Banu Qurayza, etc. etc.)

[Conserative Morality]

"A 9 year old of 1400 years ago is like a 16 - 17 year old intellectually and biologically of our times."

No, it's not. A 9 year old has not even fucking undergone puberty.

Also, most people understand that the times were different back then. The problem is that you can't exactly use that defense when you claim to get visions from an omniscient and omnipotent being who transcends space and time.

tbh I'm even willing to give some leeway on the idea of younger intellectual maturity as a consequence of being surrounded by birth and death constantly and every day being a struggle to survive in the face of a society only barely functioning against the overwhelming forces of man and nature.

But 9? 10? Jesus Christ. Even in the Medieval era nobles waited until the 'teens to marry off their daughters. King John I married his second wife when she was 14 and that's still pretty fucking creepy.

If she's young enough for dolls, put away your balls.

[New Rogernomics]

"A 9 year old of 1400 years ago is like a 16 - 17 year old intellectually and biologically of our times."

No, it's not. A 9 year old has not even fucking undergone puberty.

Also, most people understand that the times were different back then. The problem is that you can't exactly use that defense when you claim to get visions from an omniscient and omnipotent being who transcends space and time.

tbh I'm even willing to give some leeway on the idea of younger intellectual maturity as a consequence of being surrounded by birth and death constantly and every day being a struggle to survive in the face of a society only barely functioning against the overwhelming forces of man and nature.

But 9? 10? Jesus Christ. Even in the Medieval era nobles waited until the 'teens to marry off their daughters. King John I married his second wife when she was 14 and that's still pretty fucking creepy.

If she's young enough for dolls, put away your balls.

Don't worry, Turkey is leading the world in 'islamic rights': http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42558328

[...]The current outcry was started by a statement on adolescence posted online by the Diyanet, the state body which administers religious institutions and education.

It said that, according to Islamic law, the beginning of adolescence for boys was the age of 12 and for girls the age of nine. On the same website, it said that whoever reached the age of adolescence had the right to marry.[...]

[Conserative Morality]

tbh I'm even willing to give some leeway on the idea of younger intellectual maturity as a consequence of being surrounded by birth and death constantly and every day being a struggle to survive in the face of a society only barely functioning against the overwhelming forces of man and nature.

But 9? 10? Jesus Christ. Even in the Medieval era nobles waited until the 'teens to marry off their daughters. King John I married his second wife when she was 14 and that's still pretty fucking creepy.

If she's young enough for dolls, put away your balls.

Don't worry, Turkey is leading the world in 'islamic rights': http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42558328

[...]The current outcry was started by a statement on adolescence posted online by the Diyanet, the state body which administers religious institutions and education.

It said that, according to Islamic law, the beginning of adolescence for boys was the age of 12 and for girls the age of nine. On the same website, it said that whoever reached the age of adolescence had the right to marry.[...]

Allah kahretsin.

[Aillyria]

"A 9 year old of 1400 years ago is like a 16 - 17 year old intellectually and biologically of our times."

No, it's not. A 9 year old has not even fucking undergone puberty.

Also, most people understand that the times were different back then. The problem is that you can't exactly use that defense when you claim to get visions from an omniscient and omnipotent being who transcends space and time.

tbh I'm even willing to give some leeway on the idea of younger intellectual maturity as a consequence of being surrounded by birth and death constantly and every day being a struggle to survive in the face of a society only barely functioning against the overwhelming forces of man and nature.

But 9? 10? Jesus Christ. Even in the Medieval era nobles waited until the 'teens to marry off their daughters. King John I married his second wife when she was 14 and that's still pretty fucking creepy.

If she's young enough for dolls, put away your balls.

I'm going to Jahannam for laughing at this, but that's funny AF.

[Genivaria]

"A 9 year old of 1400 years ago is like a 16 - 17 year old intellectually and biologically of our times."

No, it's not. A 9 year old has not even fucking undergone puberty.

Also, most people understand that the times were different back then. The problem is that you can't exactly use that defense when you claim to get visions from an omniscient and omnipotent being who transcends space and time.

tbh I'm even willing to give some leeway on the idea of younger intellectual maturity as a consequence of being surrounded by birth and death constantly and every day being a struggle to survive in the face of a society only barely functioning against the overwhelming forces of man and nature.

But 9? 10? Jesus Christ. Even in the Medieval era nobles waited until the 'teens to marry off their daughters. King John I married his second wife when she was 14 and that's still pretty fucking creepy.

If she's young enough for dolls, put away your balls.

[Romanussia]

"A 9 year old of 1400 years ago is like a 16 - 17 year old intellectually and biologically of our times."

No, it's not. A 9 year old has not even fucking undergone puberty.

Also, most people understand that the times were different back then. The problem is that you can't exactly use that defense when you claim to get visions from an omniscient and omnipotent being who transcends space and time.

tbh I'm even willing to give some leeway on the idea of younger intellectual maturity as a consequence of being surrounded by birth and death constantly and every day being a struggle to survive in the face of a society only barely functioning against the overwhelming forces of man and nature.

But 9? 10? Jesus Christ. Even in the Medieval era nobles waited until the 'teens to marry off their daughters. King John I married his second wife when she was 14 and that's still pretty fucking creepy.

If she's young enough for dolls, put away your balls.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Go to a qualified Muslim scholar for this question, and any others that you have questions about that we Muslim NSers might not be able to answer.

Normally I'm here either as provocateur or defender since I feel Islam often gets an unfair shake, but I have to side with the opposition on this one. When confronted with opposition in a discussion, "Go talk to others" is not a defence; it is an admission that you have flaws in your argument that you have no interest in fixing. Try "I'll have to read up on that" or "I'm not sure, I'd have to think about it."

I did say that:

Idk what that means, Allahu 'Alim.

Actually, he wasn't a imam, I never said he was.
Go to a more qualified Muslim if you want an answer. I wasn't intending on debating anything, I just wanted to answer a question as best I could.

So a Muslim who actually has read their holy texts?

Every Muslim reads the Holy Qur'an

Actually, he wasn't a imam, I never said he was.
Go to a more qualified Muslim if you want an answer. I wasn't intending on debating anything, I just wanted to answer a question as best I could.

You are the second person who doesn't want to debate anything while on a debate forum.
Also 'Muslim' is not an occupation it is a denomination, so you are plenty 'qualified'.

Islamic scholastics is an occupation. Go to a qualified Muslim scholar in person or on the internet. Why should I answer a question I don't have the answer to? Since since when was not knowing meaning that I don't like to debate?

Go to a qualified Muslim scholar for this question, and any others that you have questions about that we Muslim NSers might not be able to answer.

No.

Well then, I'm sorry, but you'll be left with a question unanswered. At least, by me anyways.

Go to a qualified Muslim scholar for this question, and any others that you have questions about that we Muslim NSers might not be able to answer.

you're the one who's showed up to talk about his religion though.
in this case, the question is really simple. Does Islam find Slavery Immoral? or does it not?

I thought we were talking about Sahih Muslim 3901

This could be an issue for Sunni Muslims who accept all Sahih books as undeniably true. Personally, I don't. And as such a hadith like that I would definitely call flawed and wrong, as it contradicts the very nature of the Prophet himself.

A fair rebuttal. Though no idea if Kubumba is Sunni or not.

Nondenominational

[RoyalUKR]

If she's young enough for dolls, put away your balls.

Greatest quote ever

[Alsheb]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZRKaHS7YQc

"A 9 year old of 1400 years ago is like a 16 - 17 year old intellectually and biologically of our times."

No, it's not. A 9 year old has not even fucking undergone puberty.

Also, most people understand that the times were different back then. The problem is that you can't exactly use that defense when you claim to get visions from an omniscient and omnipotent being who transcends space and time.

It's a good thing Aisha wasn't 9 years old then, isn't it?

[Genivaria]

"A 9 year old of 1400 years ago is like a 16 - 17 year old intellectually and biologically of our times."

No, it's not. A 9 year old has not even fucking undergone puberty.

Also, most people understand that the times were different back then. The problem is that you can't exactly use that defense when you claim to get visions from an omniscient and omnipotent being who transcends space and time.

It's a good thing Aisha wasn't 9 years old then, isn't it?

Most scholars say that their marriage was consummated at either 9 or 10 so you've got no basis for that.

Aisha's age at the time she was married to Muhammad has been of interest since the earliest days of Islam, and references to her age by early historians are frequent.[11] According to Sunni scriptural Hadith sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when she was married to Muhammad with the marriage not being consummated until she had reached puberty at the age of nine or ten years old.[10][11][12][13][14][23][24][25] For example, Sahih al-Bukhari states that Aisha narrated that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:62:64

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Age_at_marriage
Even the most generous of interpretations say that she might've been 12, which is still really fucking creepy.

Some traditional sources disagree. Ibn Hisham wrote in his biography of Muhammad that she may have been ten years old at the consummation.[11] Ibn Khallikan, as well as Ibn Sa'd al-Baghdadi citing Hisham ibn Urwah, record that she was nine years old at marriage, and twelve at consummation.[26] Modern author and journalist Sadakat Kadri points out that the recording of Aisha's age by Ibn Sa'd and Bukhari (though the hadith was Sahih) came a couple of centuries after the Prophet's death.[27] Child marriage was not uncommon in many places at the time, Arabia included. It often served political purposes, and Aisha's marriage to Muhammad would have had a political connotation.[26]

[Luminesa]

"A 9 year old of 1400 years ago is like a 16 - 17 year old intellectually and biologically of our times."

No, it's not. A 9 year old has not even fucking undergone puberty.

Also, most people understand that the times were different back then. The problem is that you can't exactly use that defense when you claim to get visions from an omniscient and omnipotent being who transcends space and time.

tbh I'm even willing to give some leeway on the idea of younger intellectual maturity as a consequence of being surrounded by birth and death constantly and every day being a struggle to survive in the face of a society only barely functioning against the overwhelming forces of man and nature.

But 9? 10? Jesus Christ. Even in the Medieval era nobles waited until the 'teens to marry off their daughters. King John I married his second wife when she was 14 and that's still pretty fucking creepy.

If she's young enough for dolls, put away your balls.

Great quote right here.

[Aillyria]

It's a good thing Aisha wasn't 9 years old then, isn't it?

Most scholars say that their marriage was consummated at either 9 or 10 so you've got no basis for that.

Aisha's age at the time she was married to Muhammad has been of interest since the earliest days of Islam, and references to her age by early historians are frequent.[11] According to Sunni scriptural Hadith sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when she was married to Muhammad with the marriage not being consummated until she had reached puberty at the age of nine or ten years old.[10][11][12][13][14][23][24][25] For example, Sahih al-Bukhari states that Aisha narrated that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:62:64

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Age_at_marriage
Even the most generous of interpretations say that she might've been 12, which is still really fucking creepy.

Some traditional sources disagree. Ibn Hisham wrote in his biography of Muhammad that she may have been ten years old at the consummation.[11] Ibn Khallikan, as well as Ibn Sa'd al-Baghdadi citing Hisham ibn Urwah, record that she was nine years old at marriage, and twelve at consummation.[26] Modern author and journalist Sadakat Kadri points out that the recording of Aisha's age by Ibn Sa'd and Bukhari (though the hadith was Sahih) came a couple of centuries after the Prophet's death.[27] Child marriage was not uncommon in many places at the time, Arabia included. It often served political purposes, and Aisha's marriage to Muhammad would have had a political connotation.[26]

Of course, the hadith are primarily followed by the Sunni, who also happen to be the largest and historically dominant muslim denomination. Many Muslims, such as myself, reject all hadith.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Most scholars say that their marriage was consummated at either 9 or 10 so you've got no basis for that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Age_at_marriage
Even the most generous of interpretations say that she might've been 12, which is still really fucking creepy.

Of course, the hadith are primarily followed by the Sunni, who also happen to be the largest and historically dominant muslim denomination. Many Muslims, such as myself, reject all hadith.

I thought you only rejected ahadith with dubious isnad.

[Alsheb]

Any actual analysis of the life and accomplishments of Aisha quickly determine that the theory that their marriage was consummated at the age of ten is an absolute fallacy.

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

“A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time. Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be. This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.”

- Prophet of Islam, Maulana Muhammad Ali, 1948

Also, the historical sources indicate that Aisha's sister “Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha”, according to hadith compuler al-Khatib, which would have made Aisha no less than 19 years old at the time of consummation.

[El Hamidah]

There's disagreement about Aisha's age.

If true though, probably one of the biggest stains on his character.

Viewing Muhammad as good or bad is kind of an exercise in moral relativism though.

[Conserative Morality]

There's disagreement about Aisha's age.

If true though, probably one of the biggest stains on his character.

Viewing Muhammad as good or bad is kind of an exercise in moral relativism though.

tbh my upbringing as an evangelical makes it easy for me to understand Muhammad as "Divinely inspired, but still absolutely 100% a sinner like the rest of us." I can respect that view, even if I don't agree.

[Luminesa]

Any actual analysis of the life and accomplishments of Aisha quickly determine that the theory that their marriage was consummated at the age of ten is an absolute fallacy.

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

“A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time. Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be. This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.”

- Prophet of Islam, Maulana Muhammad Ali, 1948

Also, the historical sources indicate that Aisha's sister “Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha”, according to hadith compuler al-Khatib, which would have made Aisha no less than 19 years old at the time of consummation.

So all of the scholars Genivaria has referred to did not do any research at all?

Furthermore, is this a hadith?

[Aillyria]

Of course, the hadith are primarily followed by the Sunni, who also happen to be the largest and historically dominant muslim denomination. Many Muslims, such as myself, reject all hadith.

I thought you only rejected ahadith with dubious isnad.

No, I don't view any hadith as legitimate. Only the Quran's text is holy and obligatory to follow.

[Genivaria]

I thought you only rejected ahadith with dubious isnad.

No, I don't view any hadith as legitimate. Only the Quran's text is holy and obligatory to follow.

So then there's absolutely nothing in the Quran that you find objectionable?

[Aillyria]

No, I don't view any hadith as legitimate. Only the Quran's text is holy and obligatory to follow.

So then there's absolutely nothing in the Quran that you find objectionable?

There are, however, Islam isn't about what I or other muslims find objectionable, but what God (swt) finds objectionable.

[Iberia01]

Islam and religion in general are an affront to freedom.

[Aillyria]

Islam and religion in general are an affront to freedom.

"Freedom", isn't a virtue. People don't seem to realize that.