Islamic Discussion Thread ٣

[Bhikkustan]

What does this have to do with anything? Is it the "Muslims hate jews" stereotype? Because nothing here had been related to that.

i don't think it's related either, but there are a lot of Islamic people i meet that are pissed about the situation in Israel. hell, 2 of my 5 Islam Acquaintances deny the Holocaust. maybe i just met the wrong people.

Holocaust denial is stupid. So is supporting israel and its actions.

[Shikihara]

The US has done plenty of genocide nonetheless, it's certainly no stranger to the practice.

It seems a consistent tendency where you make vague accusations at the US (invading countries, assassinating foreign politicians, done genocide, etc.) without actually listing examples so that they can be put in context and understood. If you mean the treatment of American Indians, then yes, that was awful and almost nobody will dispute that many instances constituted genocide. However, this wasn't uncommon in the colonial period, and there's no reason to believe this makes the US the most evil nation in the world.

And thank you for telling me my status as a veteran (who's only been out for a month) is meaningless.

Which, it is. Besides being on the internet, where anything can be claimed, every soldier you'll come across has different opinions. My father is a Baptist singer and my mother is an irreligious New Ager. If simply being a soldier granted one direct insight into the truth of the government being ruled by a secret Satanic cabal, I don't think they would keep that a secret.

Like it or not, but the government we serve/served and live under is satan on Earth.

Which you've consistently failed to prove, ignoring that the US is objectively not the most evil institution on the planet.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The US has done plenty of genocide nonetheless, it's certainly no stranger to the practice.

It seems a consistent tendency where you make vague accusations at the US (invading countries, assassinating foreign politicians, done genocide, etc.) without actually listing examples so that they can be put in context and understood. If you mean the treatment of American Indians, then yes, that was awful and almost nobody will dispute that many instances constituted genocide. However, this wasn't uncommon in the colonial period, and there's no reason to believe this makes the US the most evil nation in the world.

And thank you for telling me my status as a veteran (who's only been out for a month) is meaningless.

Which, it is. Besides being on the internet, where anything can be claimed, every soldier you'll come across has different opinions. My father is a Baptist singer and my mother is an irreligious New Ager. If simply being a soldier granted one direct insight into the truth of the government being ruled by a secret Satanic cabal, I don't think they would keep that a secret.

Like it or not, but the government we serve/served and live under is satan on Earth.

Which you've consistently failed to prove, ignoring that the US is objectively not the most evil institution on the planet.

Perhaps not Satanic, but the Podesta email leak revealed there are some weird beliefs by people in high ranking political positions.

[Shikihara]

So is supporting israel

[United Islamic Commonwealth]

i don't think it's related either, but there are a lot of Islamic people i meet that are pissed about the situation in Israel. hell, 2 of my 5 Islam Acquaintances deny the Holocaust. maybe i just met the wrong people.

Holocaust denial is stupid.

Yeah. I've never really understood how someone can honestly deny the bloody Holocaust.

[United Islamic Commonwealth]

So is supporting israel

Supporting Israel makes you cleverer than someone else?

[Bhikkustan]

Supporting Israel makes you cleverer than someone else?

It's like watching Rick and Morty

[Aillyria]

The US has done plenty of genocide nonetheless, it's certainly no stranger to the practice.

It seems a consistent tendency where you make vague accusations at the US (invading countries, assassinating foreign politicians, done genocide, etc.) without actually listing examples so that they can be put in context and understood. If you mean the treatment of American Indians, then yes, that was awful and almost nobody will dispute that many instances constituted genocide. However, this wasn't uncommon in the colonial period, and there's no reason to believe this makes the US the most evil nation in the world.

And thank you for telling me my status as a veteran (who's only been out for a month) is meaningless.

Which, it is. Besides being on the internet, where anything can be claimed, every soldier you'll come across has different opinions. My father is a Baptist singer and my mother is an irreligious New Ager. If simply being a soldier granted one direct insight into the truth of the government being ruled by a secret Satanic cabal, I don't think they would keep that a secret.

Like it or not, but the government we serve/served and live under is satan on Earth.

Which you've consistently failed to prove, ignoring that the US is objectively not the most evil institution on the planet.

Ok, how about this....I will spend tomorrow creating compilation of all the atrocities I can find committed by our beloved United States Government. I'll show you how through I can be. I'm a good sport, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong and will admit it.

[Shikihara]

Supporting Israel makes you cleverer than someone else?

No, I was quipping that even if I were stupid for supporting Israel, I'd still be cleverer than Bhikku.

[United Islamic Commonwealth]

Supporting Israel makes you cleverer than someone else?

No, I was quipping that even if I were stupid for supporting Israel, I'd still be cleverer than Bhikku.

Well, he isn't the one insulting you ad hominem, Shiki.

[Shikihara]

I will spend tomorrow creating compilation of all the atrocities I can find committed by our beloved United States Government.

I'm not interested, because my time is better spent on other things then pointing out how the US' atrocities, while awful, don't really compete with the Holocaust, Holodomor, Great Leap Forward, or other atrocities that claimed the lives of millions. You could do the same with the British Empire, Imperial Japan, etc. to prove that they were the real monsters rather than the Nazis and Soviets.

[Aillyria]

I will spend tomorrow creating compilation of all the atrocities I can find committed by our beloved United States Government.

I'm not interested, because my time is better spent on other things then pointing out how the US' atrocities, while awful, don't really compete with the Holocaust, Holodomor, Great Leap Forward, or other atrocities that claimed the lives of millions. You could do the same with the British Empire, Imperial Japan, etc. to prove that they were the real monsters rather than the Nazis and Soviets.

Sure....

I'm doing it anyway, simply for my own curiously into what other unsavory deeds beyond my knowledge the United States has committed during its existence. I find that people always focus on death and killing as to what makes a regime evil, when that is far from the most terrible thing someone can be subjected to.

[The Alma Mater]

I'm not interested, because my time is better spent on other things then pointing out how the US' atrocities, while awful, don't really compete with the Holocaust, Holodomor, Great Leap Forward, or other atrocities that claimed the lives of millions. You could do the same with the British Empire, Imperial Japan, etc. to prove that they were the real monsters rather than the Nazis and Soviets.

Sure....

I'm doing it anyway, simply for my own curiously into what other unsavory deeds beyond my knowledge the United States has committed during its existence. I find that people always focus on death and killing as to what makes a regime evil, when that is far from the most terrible thing someone can be subjected to.

SInce we are in the Islamic Discussion thread - will you also make one for Islam/an Islamic country/Muhammed or something so we can compare ?

[Bhikkustan]

Supporting Israel makes you cleverer than someone else?

No, I was quipping that even if I were stupid for supporting Israel, I'd still be cleverer than Bhikku.

I mean, ok. Sure. What are your GCSE's or equivalent?

[Shikihara]

No, I was quipping that even if I were stupid for supporting Israel, I'd still be cleverer than Bhikku.

I mean, ok. Sure. What are your GCSE's or equivalent?

I don't think you understand the concept of a "quip." and I'm an American, we don't do GSCE's from what I'm aware.

[Bhikkustan]

I mean, ok. Sure. What are your GCSE's or equivalent?

I don't think you understand the concept of a "quip." and I'm an American, we don't do GSCE's from what I'm aware.

Mate I know what a quip is. That just seemed a rather strange one, with no basis in the convo. And I don't do them either, they're just more well recognised worldwide.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I'm not interested, because my time is better spent on other things then pointing out how the US' atrocities, while awful, don't really compete with the Holocaust, Holodomor, Great Leap Forward, or other atrocities that claimed the lives of millions. You could do the same with the British Empire, Imperial Japan, etc. to prove that they were the real monsters rather than the Nazis and Soviets.

Sure....

I'm doing it anyway, simply for my own curiously into what other unsavory deeds beyond my knowledge the United States has committed during its existence. I find that people always focus on death and killing as to what makes a regime evil, when that is far from the most terrible thing someone can be subjected to.

Such as repression of free thought or religion?

[Alsheb]

It is funny how a sudden swarm of offended US fanboys have been swarming all over this thread like flies on a turd just because someone said something bad about the US

Okay lads, you've had your fun. Now let us return to having an Islamic discussion forum.

[Bhikkustan]

It is funny how a sudden swarm of offended US fanboys have been swarming all over this thread like flies on a turd just because someone said something bad about the US

Okay lads, you've had your fun. Now let us return to having an Islamic discussion forum.

New topic needed.

What is this thread's opinion on the Deobandi school? I find a lot of both theirs and the Barlevi school to be interesting and am wondering which you believe I should follow (in terms of listening to their sheikhs etc, not locking myself into a sect).

[Alsheb]

It is funny how a sudden swarm of offended US fanboys have been swarming all over this thread like flies on a turd just because someone said something bad about the US

Okay lads, you've had your fun. Now let us return to having an Islamic discussion forum.

New topic needed.

What is this thread's opinion on the Deobandi school? I find a lot of both theirs and the Barlevi school to be interesting and am wondering which you believe I should follow (in terms of listening to their sheikhs etc, not locking myself into a sect).

Isn't the Deobandi school rather narrowly tied to the Salafi/Wahhabi sects?

Personally, I'd favour their direct theological competitors, the Ahle Hadith, especially in matters like rejecting taqlid in favour of ijtihad.

[Bhikkustan]

New topic needed.

What is this thread's opinion on the Deobandi school? I find a lot of both theirs and the Barlevi school to be interesting and am wondering which you believe I should follow (in terms of listening to their sheikhs etc, not locking myself into a sect).

Isn't the Deobandi school rather narrowly tied to the Salafi/Wahhabi sects?

Personally, I'd favour their direct theological competitors, the Ahle Hadith, especially in matters like rejecting taqlid in favour of ijtihad.

Whilst the deobandi are a Muslim revivalist movement and are somewhat conservative, that is where the similarities end. Firstly, the madhab. Whilst the salafi are followers of Imam Hanbal, the Deobandi follow the jurisprudential rulings of Iman Abu Hanifa. These two schools of fiqh are very different. The salafi are also very literal interpreters of of noble Qur'an, while the deobandi are maturidi which means that they belief that logic and reasoning have a role in interpreting the Qur'an. The deobandi also follow some elements of Sufiism, and the salafis often wish for all sufi to be killed. Barlevi are similar to Deobandi, but more liberal and with several more Shia traits and several decidedly sufi ones such as paying respect at the graves of saints.

[Alsheb]

Isn't the Deobandi school rather narrowly tied to the Salafi/Wahhabi sects?

Personally, I'd favour their direct theological competitors, the Ahle Hadith, especially in matters like rejecting taqlid in favour of ijtihad.

Whilst the deobandi are a Muslim revivalist movement and are somewhat conservative, that is where the similarities end. Firstly, the madhab. Whilst the salafi are followers of Imam Hanbal, the Deobandi follow the jurisprudential rulings of Iman Abu Hanifa. These two schools of fiqh are very different. The salafi are also very literal interpreters of of noble Qur'an, while the deobandi are maturidi which means that they belief that logic and reasoning have a role in interpreting the Qur'an. The deobandi also follow some elements of Sufiism, and the salafis often wish for all sufi to be killed. Barlevi are similar to Deobandi, but more liberal and with several more Shia traits and several decidedly sufi ones such as paying respect at the graves of saints.

Thanks for the information. Like I said, I tend to be less than enthusiastic about taqlid-oriented Islamic philosophies in general.
The Barelvis sound more interesting in my opinion, but they have quite unorthodox leanings when it comes to their belief in an almost demi-god status of the Prophet Muhammad.
In general, within Sunni Islam I symathise mostly with the Shafi'i maddhab due to its rejection of Istihsan (juristic preference in the name of promoting the interest of Islam) and Istislah (public interest), as these matters are subjective and fallible due to the fact that they are based on human perception.

[Kubumba Tribe]

not a Muslim, but i almost converted to Islam. the idea of fasting, making that many prayers a day, and all the other hassle kinda dissuaded me. my real beliefs are atheist, but i want to understand this religion better. i have several Islam friends.

To be honest, I cannot respect this position. If you truly believed in Islam, you would not find a small amount of prayer and time without food to be a sacrifice too great to bear, especially when such sacrifices free you from Jahannam. It is better to "suffer" small obstacles and gain the eternity in paradise hereafter than to be dissuaded by minor tribulations and face Iblis.

Aameen to that

I love how some people actually believe they can talk down and act haughty regarding the analysis of US imperialism, especially since they're talking to a sister who literally risked her life in service to the US imperialist system in the past and has a direct inside perspective of it.

Sure, tell me more on how this straight from the source experience is somehow "tinfoil hat talk" that offends your delicate US-loving sensibilities...

Exactamente

to a sister who literally risked her life in service to the US imperialist system in the past and has a direct inside perspective of it.

Being a soldier in the military does not give you a "direct inside perspective" of the US government. There are a number of far-right soldiers who believe that most of the world is controlled by a Zionist elite through the banks, but none of us are suddenly going to start taking them seriously and assert that they have a "direct perspective" on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Pretantia is in the army, so trying to throw that card is not going to work.

Point made

I mean, the US has done some pretty fucking horrible things (the coups in Iran, Panama, Mexico, Haiti, Honduras, Guatemala, etc. ; MKUltra; And supporting the Saudis, for instance), but I wouldn't compare the US to bloody Nazi Germany.

Yeah, I don't think the US is the MOST evil nation, but it has done some evil stuff...

Sigh. Alright, with all this discussion of Nazi Germany and genocide, I absolutely must ask: does any degree of antisemitism shape any of your views on anything related to this discussion, be it America, the Holocaust, or something else?

We need to get this cleared up.

?

i don't think it's related either, but there are a lot of Islamic people i meet that are pissed about the situation in Israel. hell, 2 of my 5 Islam Acquaintances deny the Holocaust. maybe i just met the wrong people.

Probably. I despise Israel, mainly its government. I don't despise the Israeli people or Jews in general.

That's what I need to work on. I don't like the Zionist gov either, but when I hear about an Israeli I tense up Astaghfirullah.

I will spend tomorrow creating compilation of all the atrocities I can find committed by our beloved United States Government.

I'm not interested, because my time is better spent on other things then pointing out how the US' atrocities, while awful, don't really compete with the Holocaust, Holodomor, Great Leap Forward, or other atrocities that claimed the lives of millions. You could do the same with the British Empire, Imperial Japan, etc. to prove that they were the real monsters rather than the Nazis and Soviets.

Trail of Tears and slavery can be equate to those.

Sure....

I'm doing it anyway, simply for my own curiously into what other unsavory deeds beyond my knowledge the United States has committed during its existence. I find that people always focus on death and killing as to what makes a regime evil, when that is far from the most terrible thing someone can be subjected to.

SInce we are in the Islamic Discussion thread - will you also make one for Islam/an Islamic country/Muhammed or something so we can compare ?

Why?

[Aillyria]

Sure....

I'm doing it anyway, simply for my own curiously into what other unsavory deeds beyond my knowledge the United States has committed during its existence. I find that people always focus on death and killing as to what makes a regime evil, when that is far from the most terrible thing someone can be subjected to.

SInce we are in the Islamic Discussion thread - will you also make one for Islam/an Islamic country/Muhammed or something so we can compare ?

How is that relevant to my argument? I made the assertion that the US is evil, the most evil infact even in comparison with the Nazis. I don't get the point of comparing the US with any muslim majority country could accomplish, unless you have a specific nation in mind?

[Kubumba Tribe]

SInce we are in the Islamic Discussion thread - will you also make one for Islam/an Islamic country/Muhammed or something so we can compare ?

How is that relevant to my argument? I made the assertion that the US is evil, the most evil infact even in comparison with the Nazis. I don't get the point of comparing the US with any muslim majority country could accomplish, unless you have a specific nation in mind?

Yeah, I'm suspicious of the qustion too.