Islamic Discussion Thread ٣

[Shikihara]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change

Which of these are particularly bad? Pinochet's Chile was awful, but I doubt the US knew the extent of what was happening there, and understandably was worried about new Soviet satellite states after the missile crisis in Cuba. Changing the government isn't as bad as murdering nine million people or performing experiments on them. It's not even really "evil."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

"US troops committed war crimes, ergo America is worse than the Nazis!"

Literally what you're arguing.

Pick your poison. And this isn't even complete, there are more

While I'm sure there are other American war crimes out there, they don't really compare to the systematic atrocities perpetrated by the countries that I mentioned. It's really bad when you're making me of all people take the sides of the United States.

[Bhikkustan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change

Which of these are particularly bad? Pinochet's Chile was awful, but I doubt the US knew the extent of what was happening there, and understandably was worried about new Soviet satellite states after the missile crisis in Cuba. Changing the government isn't as bad as murdering nine million people or performing experiments on them. It's not even really "evil."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

"US troops committed war crimes, ergo America is worse than the Nazis!"

Literally what you're arguing.

Pick your poison. And this isn't even complete, there are more

While I'm sure there are other American war crimes out there, they don't really compare to the systematic atrocities perpetrated by the countries that I mentioned. It's really bad when you're making me of all people take the sides of the United States.

"Changing the government isn't as bad as killing 9 million people"
No, but the direct consequences of these regime changes have killed millions more
"US troops have committed warcrimes..."
They support the systematic killings of Palestinians, literally funded Apartheid, supported the massacre of communists in Indonesia...
They have supported the mass killings of so many and directly facilitated so many deaths. And I know nothing about you so that last point means absolutely nothing to me. For all I know you're an american who supports their regime.

[Yanitza]

Alot of Muslims in this thread seem to support socialism, why is this?

Islam is compatible with many socialist ideals. Islam revolves around the idea of the Ummah (community). Things are shared in the Ummah through systems like zakat and caring for your neighbor.

The idea of a community is not unique to left wing ideologies. Neither is charity ir giving to your neighbour. Besides doesn't the Quran defend private property.

[Yanitza]

Islam is compatible with many socialist ideals. Islam revolves around the idea of the Ummah (community). Things are shared in the Ummah through systems like zakat and caring for your neighbor.

Plus Islam has historically been left leaning, the rashidun Caliphate had a UBI etc. Also many Muslims are against America due to historical imperialism, and the struggle of socialism appeals to some.

But their are other aspects of Islamic polities in the past that have also contradicted socialist princeples as well so you can't really categorise it as either left or right in a genetal sense.For example, it would be fair to say socialist governments typically have used a large amount of state power to encourage economic redistribution through things like taxes. Yet many historical Islamic polities such as the Abbasid Caliphs were restricted in their ability to levy taxes by the Ulema.

Also I don't think socialism has a much better example in terms of imperialism in Muslim lands, ie tjr USSR or China.

[Alsheb]

Islam is compatible with many socialist ideals. Islam revolves around the idea of the Ummah (community). Things are shared in the Ummah through systems like zakat and caring for your neighbor.

The idea of a community is not unique to left wing ideologies. Neither is charity ir giving to your neighbour. Besides doesn't the Quran defend private property.

The Qur'an protects personal property. Entirely different thing.

[Alsheb]

Plus Islam has historically been left leaning, the rashidun Caliphate had a UBI etc. Also many Muslims are against America due to historical imperialism, and the struggle of socialism appeals to some.

But their are other aspects of Islamic polities in the past that have also contradicted socialist princeples as well so you can't really categorise it as either left or right in a genetal sense.For example, it would be fair to say socialist governments typically have used a large amount of state power to encourage economic redistribution through things like taxes. Yet many historical Islamic polities such as the Abbasid Caliphs were restricted in their ability to levy taxes by the Ulema.

Also I don't think socialism has a much better example in terms of imperialism in Muslim lands, ie tjr USSR or China.

How many invasions of sovereign nations has the USSR or the PRC undertaken for economical reasons?

[Pilarcraft]

But their are other aspects of Islamic polities in the past that have also contradicted socialist princeples as well so you can't really categorise it as either left or right in a genetal sense.For example, it would be fair to say socialist governments typically have used a large amount of state power to encourage economic redistribution through things like taxes. Yet many historical Islamic polities such as the Abbasid Caliphs were restricted in their ability to levy taxes by the Ulema.

Also I don't think socialism has a much better example in terms of imperialism in Muslim lands, ie tjr USSR or China.

How many invasions of sovereign nations has the USSR or the PRC undertaken for economical reasons?

USSR didn't invade nations for Economic reasons, but to "export Socialism" or some bullshit reason for that.
But then again, that's the official stance. Officially speaking, the US also invades nations for "peacekeeping reasons" or "pacifying a threat" or, the most popular of em all, "Freedom" (because nothing says freedom more than foreign heavily armed soldiers occupying your nation and establishing a puppet government, amirite?)

[Alsheb]

How many invasions of sovereign nations has the USSR or the PRC undertaken for economical reasons?

USSR didn't invade nations for Economic reasons, but to "export Socialism" or some bullshit reason for that.
But then again, that's the official stance. Officially speaking, the US also invades nations for "peacekeeping reasons" or "pacifying a threat" or, the most popular of em all, "Freedom" (because nothing says freedom more than foreign heavily armed soldiers occupying your nation and establishing a puppet government, amirite?)

There is a reason why much of the Socialist world condemned the Soviet Union for the 1968 Czechoslovak incident. Nations such as China, Cuba and even Warsaw Pact countries such as Romania were very much opposed to it because of the perceived violation of Czechoslovak sovereignty.

However, this sort of intervention is an exception in Socialism, as "exporting Socialism" is not a necessity for the survival of Socialism as a system. Imperialism on the other hand is part and parcel of capitalism itself, as the need for ever expanding workforce, raw materials and markets drives capitalist powers to imperialist policies out of economical necessity.

[Pilarcraft]

USSR didn't invade nations for Economic reasons, but to "export Socialism" or some bullshit reason for that.
But then again, that's the official stance. Officially speaking, the US also invades nations for "peacekeeping reasons" or "pacifying a threat" or, the most popular of em all, "Freedom" (because nothing says freedom more than foreign heavily armed soldiers occupying your nation and establishing a puppet government, amirite?)

There is a reason why much of the Socialist world condemned the Soviet Union for the 1968 Czechoslovak incident. Nations such as China, Cuba and even Warsaw Pact countries such as Romania were very much opposed to it because of the perceived violation of Czechoslovak sovereignty.

However, this sort of intervention is an exception in Socialism, as "exporting Socialism" is not a necessity for the survival of Socialism as a system. Imperialism on the other hand is part and parcel of capitalism itself, as the need for ever expanding workforce, raw materials and markets drives capitalist powers to imperialist policies out of economical necessity.

Imperialism isn't necessarily right-wing, though. Imperialism's first and foremost intent is to expand and gain more territories, for various reasons. the most traditional ones are "bringing enlightenment" (a la Rome) and "they have stuff we want" (a la British Empire). The Modern ones can have various ever-increasingly-weird reasons, but even they can be described in one of the two above intentions.

The USSR was Imperialist. there's no doubt about that. their intent, however, wasn't "they have stuff we need", it was to "bring enlightenment to these oppressed people" or some bullshit like that. One can't condemn the Western Bloc for Imperialism and then deny the Eastern Bloc also did the same.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

It's definitely enough to include them under that ideology.

Both of these statements are false, especially the former. People who undoubtedly believe Muhammad is the prophet of God can't be kafirs.

Never made that claim. I just take it from Muslims that they're Muslim.

HTF can they be muslim if they don't do anything we're supposed to do?

Yes.

Is that what you think it means to be in our faith?

No
Never said that.

[Kubumba Tribe]

HTF can they be muslim if they don't do anything we're supposed to do?

Yes.

Is that what you think it means to be in our faith?

No
Never said that.

Bruv, you think that just because someone says they're Muslim, then you'd believe they are Muslim.

[Alsheb]

There is a reason why much of the Socialist world condemned the Soviet Union for the 1968 Czechoslovak incident. Nations such as China, Cuba and even Warsaw Pact countries such as Romania were very much opposed to it because of the perceived violation of Czechoslovak sovereignty.

However, this sort of intervention is an exception in Socialism, as "exporting Socialism" is not a necessity for the survival of Socialism as a system. Imperialism on the other hand is part and parcel of capitalism itself, as the need for ever expanding workforce, raw materials and markets drives capitalist powers to imperialist policies out of economical necessity.

Imperialism isn't necessarily right-wing, though. Imperialism's first and foremost intent is to expand and gain more territories, for various reasons. the most traditional ones are "bringing enlightenment" (a la Rome) and "they have stuff we want" (a la British Empire). The Modern ones can have various ever-increasingly-weird reasons, but even they can be described in one of the two above intentions.

The USSR was Imperialist. there's no doubt about that. their intent, however, wasn't "they have stuff we need", it was to "bring enlightenment to these oppressed people" or some bullshit like that. One can't condemn the Western Bloc for Imperialism and then deny the Eastern Bloc also did the same.

Which is why I didn't deny that. The only difference is that the USSR is the only Socialist nation to ever have engaged in it, and even then only after the post-1953 degeneration into revisionism. No other Socialist nation ever has, and the USSR has had much criticism from other Communists for its actions after the 1950s.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Yes.

No
Never said that.

Bruv, you think that just because someone says they're Muslim, then you'd believe they are Muslim.

If they believe Muhammad is God's prophet then they're Muslim.

[Pilarcraft]

Bruv, you think that just because someone says they're Muslim, then you'd believe they are Muslim.

If they believe Muhammad is God's prophet then they're Muslim.

technically, it's a bit more than that. You need to believe in God and the fact there are no other gods (Tawheed, La Illah Illallah), in the Prophet's "Ismat" (Infallibility) and the fact Muhammad is the last Prophet (Nnabuwwat: Muhammadun rasulullah), and the Afterlife (Qiyamat, or Ma'ad).
the rest is just details. they show how good (?) a muslim you are.

[Serpenteum]

not a Muslim, but i almost converted to Islam. the idea of fasting, making that many prayers a day, and all the other hassle kinda dissuaded me. my real beliefs are atheist, but i want to understand this religion better. i have several Islam friends.

[Pilarcraft]

not a Muslim, but i almost converted to Islam. the idea of fasting, making that many prayers a day, and all the other hassle kinda dissuaded me. my real beliefs are atheist, but i want to understand this religion better. i have several Islam friends.

to be honest, if the "Fasting" was what dissuaded you from becoming a Muslim, I doubt you'd be a very good one. no offense.
Quran, Al-zumar 39:17 (roughly translated into "So give good tidings to My servants Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and those are people of understanding.),

[Kubumba Tribe]

not a Muslim, but i almost converted to Islam. the idea of fasting, making that many prayers a day, and all the other hassle kinda dissuaded me. my real beliefs are atheist, but i want to understand this religion better. i have several Islam friends.

What do you find wrong the fasting and prayer? And what hassle are you referring to?

[United Islamic Commonwealth]

not a Muslim, but i almost converted to Islam. the idea of fasting, making that many prayers a day, and all the other hassle kinda dissuaded me. my real beliefs are atheist, but i want to understand this religion better. i have several Islam friends.

I enjoy the challenge of fasting. And the prayers really aren't much of a hassle. Just when I get up and basically before I get ready to go to sleep.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

not a Muslim, but i almost converted to Islam. the idea of fasting, making that many prayers a day, and all the other hassle kinda dissuaded me. my real beliefs are atheist, but i want to understand this religion better. i have several Islam friends.

I enjoy the challenge of fasting. And the prayers really aren't much of a hassle. Just when I get up and basically before I get ready to go to sleep.

True, it ain't that hard. It usually only takes me 7 mins to pray.

[Aillyria]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change

Which of these are particularly bad? Pinochet's Chile was awful, but I doubt the US knew the extent of what was happening there, and understandably was worried about new Soviet satellite states after the missile crisis in Cuba. Changing the government isn't as bad as murdering nine million people or performing experiments on them. It's not even really "evil."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

"US troops committed war crimes, ergo America is worse than the Nazis!"

Literally what you're arguing.

Pick your poison. And this isn't even complete, there are more

While I'm sure there are other American war crimes out there, they don't really compare to the systematic atrocities perpetrated by the countries that I mentioned. It's really bad when you're making me of all people take the sides of the United States.

The US government has assasinated foreign politicians, invaded nations under blatantly false accusations, experimented on it's own citizens (MK-Ultra, and Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment), illegally imprisoned its own citizens (Japanese American camps), perpetuates a systematic program of public misinformation in various areas of national life and subliminal conditioning through the media.

The US government is hands down the most evil entity on the planet. The only difference is they're better at hiding most of the worst atrocities, and the American people are so stupid and brainwashed to see there is evidence everywhere, they don't understand they are slaves in an insidious system designed to make them into moldable cashcows and willing weapons for our satanic elite.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Which of these are particularly bad? Pinochet's Chile was awful, but I doubt the US knew the extent of what was happening there, and understandably was worried about new Soviet satellite states after the missile crisis in Cuba. Changing the government isn't as bad as murdering nine million people or performing experiments on them. It's not even really "evil."


"US troops committed war crimes, ergo America is worse than the Nazis!"

Literally what you're arguing.


While I'm sure there are other American war crimes out there, they don't really compare to the systematic atrocities perpetrated by the countries that I mentioned. It's really bad when you're making me of all people take the sides of the United States.

The US government has assasinated foreign politicians, invaded nations under blatantly false accusations, experimented on it's own citizens (MK-Ultra, and Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment), illegally imprisoned its own citizens (Japanese American camps),

None of these make them worse than Nazi Germany or even the Soviet Union.

perpetuates a systematic program of public misinformation in various areas of national life and subliminal conditioning through the media.

The US government is hands down the most evil entity on the planet. The only difference is they're better at hiding most of the worst atrocities, and the American people are so stupid and brainwashed to see there is evidence everywhere, they don't understand they are slaves in an insidious system designed to make them into moldable cashcows and willing weapons for our satanic elite.

Crosses the line from hate to irrational fear territory.

[Bhikkustan]

not a Muslim, but i almost converted to Islam. the idea of fasting, making that many prayers a day, and all the other hassle kinda dissuaded me. my real beliefs are atheist, but i want to understand this religion better. i have several Islam friends.

To be honest, I cannot respect this position. If you truly believed in Islam, you would not find a small amount of prayer and time without food to be a sacrifice too great to bear, especially when such sacrifices free you from Jahannam. It is better to "suffer" small obstacles and gain the eternity in paradise hereafter than to be dissuaded by minor tribulations and face Iblis.

[Aillyria]

The US government has assasinated foreign politicians, invaded nations under blatantly false accusations, experimented on it's own citizens (MK-Ultra, and Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment), illegally imprisoned its own citizens (Japanese American camps),

None of these make them worse than Nazi Germany or even the Soviet Union.

perpetuates a systematic program of public misinformation in various areas of national life and subliminal conditioning through the media.

The US government is hands down the most evil entity on the planet. The only difference is they're better at hiding most of the worst atrocities, and the American people are so stupid and brainwashed to see there is evidence everywhere, they don't understand they are slaves in an insidious system designed to make them into moldable cashcows and willing weapons for our satanic elite.

Crosses the line from hate to irrational fear territory.

Ok, so doing the samethings as Nazis for a longer time and a more massive scale isn't more evil, ok sure.

[Shikihara]

The US government has assasinated foreign politicians, invaded nations under blatantly false accusations,

Since you are (probably purposely) being as vague as possible, and this mainly happened during the Cold War, I can only assume that many of these politicians deserved to be assassinated, while others perhaps did not. But in a cold war where there are things such as missile crises or the possibility of a third world war, it's not going to be pretty. The US invaded nations, sometimes on false accusations, the USSR did the same.

experimented on it's own citizens (MK-Ultra, and Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment), illegally imprisoned its own citizens (Japanese American camps),

Both of these are extremely awful, but do not approach anywhere near the horror of Nazi concentration camps, and the US government has made official apologies and reparations to the victims. Something that you would not have found in totalitarian regimes, except maybe with the USSR, mainly because Khrushchev could blame the actions on Stalin and dead co. rather than with the state itself (and ignore his own role).

perpetuates a systematic program of public misinformation in various areas of national life and subliminal conditioning through the media.

The US government is hands down the most evil entity on the planet. The only difference is they're better at hiding most of the worst atrocities, and the American people are so stupid and brainwashed to see there is evidence everywhere, they don't understand they are slaves in an insidious system designed to make them into moldable cashcows and willing weapons for our satanic elite.

Alex Jones called, he wants his tinfoil hat back.

[Alsheb]

I love how some people actually believe they can talk down and act haughty regarding the analysis of US imperialism, especially since they're talking to a sister who literally risked her life in service to the US imperialist system in the past and has a direct inside perspective of it.

Sure, tell me more on how this straight from the source experience is somehow "tinfoil hat talk" that offends your delicate US-loving sensibilities...