Islamic Discussion Thread ٣

[Gondolaulus]

A very good change.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

If you`re referring to Alsheb, then I doubt his conversion was even genuine. He mentioned having an Indonesian girlfriend and marrying her, so I think he just converted in order to get laid tbh. And she probably was "progressive" so that influenced him, or he was "progressive" enough to influence her. Be that as it may, that is what I think.

That's not how you talk about another Muslim. Just because he's misguided doesn't make him a lost cause.

He isn't a Muslim Quranists are not from us.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

If you`re referring to Alsheb, then I doubt his conversion was even genuine. He mentioned having an Indonesian girlfriend and marrying her, so I think he just converted in order to get laid tbh.

You aren't learning from your past mistakes. You have already lost two nations. In the past six months and change, you have shown zero regard for the site rules. You have already been cautioned on at least two prior occasions that if you continued to break the site rules, you would find yourself permanently disinvited from Nationstates.

I am opening the Delete-on-Sight discussion with my colleagues now.

In the meantime, *** Free Rhenish States II, DEAT and 1-month forumban for flaming, with upgrade to Delete-On-Sight possible. ***


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

I think he deserves at least one more chance.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Casablanca – Morocco’s High Religious Committee has retracted its Islamic ruling stating that apostasy is punishable by death and has decided to permit Muslims to change their religion.

The High Religious Committee in charge of issuing Fatwas (Islamic rulings) released a book in 2012 where it articulated its position on apostasy and argued that a Muslim who changes his or her religion should be punished with death, drawing on a widespread jurisprudence tradition.

Recently, however, the same entity issued a document titled “The Way of the Scholars,” in which it backtracked on its position of killing apostates. Instead, it redefined apostasy not as a religious issue but as a political stand more closely aligned with “high treason.”

The view that the apostate should not be killed in Islam is not a new one and can be found in the teachings of Sufyan al-Thawri in the first century AH. The scholar reviewed historical situations where the prophet Mohammed acted on the ruling, as opposed to the times he did not order the killing of the apostates. He concluded that killings occurred for political purposes and were not decisions based on religion. The apostates could, theoretically, disclose the secrets of the then fragile Islamic nation.

The reasons behind Morocco’s High Religious Committee’s change in position are not different from those advocated by Sufyan al-Thawri. Their newly released statement says:

“The most accurate understanding, and the most consistent with the Islamic legislation and the practical way of the Prophet, peace be upon him, is that the killing of the apostate is meant for the traitor of the group, the one disclosing secrets, […] the equivalent of treason in international law.”

The High Religious Committee presented the Prophet’s statement that “whoever changes his religion, kill him” in the light of his explanation “the one who leaves his religion and abandons his people.” The statement further explains that, at the time of continuous wars against the Islamic revolution in Arabia, apostates represented the threat of disclosing the secrets of new Ummah to its many enemies.

The document went to explain that during the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah, Prophet Mohammed himself observed the provisions stating that whomever became a Muslim and renounced it must be allowed to return to Quraich, the Muslim nations’ most powerful enemy at the time. When a Bedouin decided to leave Islam after the Treaty, therefore, the prophet simply let him go.

Using Islam’s primary source of legislation, the High Religious Committee stated that the Quran talks in many instances about apostasy and its punishment in the hereafter, without mentioning any punishment in this life as in Chapter 2 verse 217 that says: “And whoever of you reverts from his religion [to disbelief] and dies while he is a disbeliever – for those, their deeds have become worthless in this world and the Hereafter, and those are the companions of the Fire, they will abide therein eternally.”

The document also explained that the famous Wars of Apostasy launched by Abu Bakr as-Siddiq, the Muslims world’s first Caliph, were in line with his effort to keep the newly established state together and fight all sorts of internal divisions. This was a decision based on political reasoning rather than by religious motivations.

Link: https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2017/0 ... ign=buffer

Death for apostasy is not Islamic.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

That's not how you talk about another Muslim. Just because he's misguided doesn't make him a lost cause.

He isn't a Muslim Quranists are not from us.

He changed his stance on that a while ago.

[Alsheb]

That's not how you talk about another Muslim. Just because he's misguided doesn't make him a lost cause.

He isn't a Muslim Quranists are not from us.

That is blasphemy. You cannot know the intentions of a person, not judge on wether or not they are Muslim. Such power is Allah's alone.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

He isn't a Muslim Quranists are not from us.

That is blasphemy. You cannot know the intentions of a person, not judge on wether or not they are Muslim. Such power is Allah's alone.

You are a Quranist thus a non-Muslim, and yes we can judge and make Takfeer it's in the Shariah if you knew the Hadiths you'd know that people abuse the saying where Muhammad (SAAWS) said that if you falsely accuse someone of being a non-Muslim you are not Muslim and will rot in Hell and all that. I have evidence you are non-Muslim simply the fact you support Communism, Nationalism, and many other things atop the fact you are a Quranist as well this does not equal Islam, all of your arguments are just saying "I am Muslim because I say so" this is not how it works. I'll give you this though arguing with you is frustrating because you always say the same thing about how judging is only for Allah, but you know who else said this? The Khawarij, the Khawarij killed Uthman (RA) who you dislike and Ali (RA) because of this same philosophy, of course Allah is the highest judge but we have the authority to judge those who sin openly this is why we have a Shariah why every Islamic State since the Rashidun era had courts this is why we have books on Fiqh and Tasfeer from the greatest scholars. Islam is an organized religion not just do whatever the Hell I want when I want and if I say this is Islam this is Islam.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

He isn't a Muslim Quranists are not from us.

He changed his stance on that a while ago.

He still has not renounced his other stances.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

That is blasphemy. You cannot know the intentions of a person, not judge on wether or not they are Muslim. Such power is Allah's alone.

You are a Quranist thus a non-Muslim, and yes we can judge and make Takfeer it's in the Shariah if you knew the Hadiths you'd know that people abuse the saying where Muhammad (SAAWS) said that if you falsely accuse someone of being a non-Muslim you are not Muslim and will rot in Hell and all that. I have evidence you are non-Muslim simply the fact you support Communism, Nationalism, and many other things atop the fact you are a Quranist as well this does not equal Islam, all of your arguments are just saying "I am Muslim because I say so" this is not how it works. I'll give you this though arguing with you is frustrating because you always say the same thing about how judging is only for Allah, but you know who else said this? The Khawarij, the Khawarij killed Uthman (RA) who you dislike and Ali (RA) because of this same philosophy, of course Allah is the highest judge but we have the authority to judge those who sin openly this is why we have a Shariah why every Islamic State since the Rashidun era had courts this is why we have books on Fiqh and Tasfeer from the greatest scholars. Islam is an organized religion not just do whatever the Hell I want when I want and if I say this is Islam this is Islam.

Correction: Former Quranist. For everything else I agree with you.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

You are a Quranist thus a non-Muslim, and yes we can judge and make Takfeer it's in the Shariah if you knew the Hadiths you'd know that people abuse the saying where Muhammad (SAAWS) said that if you falsely accuse someone of being a non-Muslim you are not Muslim and will rot in Hell and all that. I have evidence you are non-Muslim simply the fact you support Communism, Nationalism, and many other things atop the fact you are a Quranist as well this does not equal Islam, all of your arguments are just saying "I am Muslim because I say so" this is not how it works. I'll give you this though arguing with you is frustrating because you always say the same thing about how judging is only for Allah, but you know who else said this? The Khawarij, the Khawarij killed Uthman (RA) who you dislike and Ali (RA) because of this same philosophy, of course Allah is the highest judge but we have the authority to judge those who sin openly this is why we have a Shariah why every Islamic State since the Rashidun era had courts this is why we have books on Fiqh and Tasfeer from the greatest scholars. Islam is an organized religion not just do whatever the Hell I want when I want and if I say this is Islam this is Islam.

Correction: Former Quranist. For everything else I agree with you.

If we had a scale to measure it, it would just be a small weigh removed from the many.

[Alsheb]

That is blasphemy. You cannot know the intentions of a person, not judge on wether or not they are Muslim. Such power is Allah's alone.

You are a Quranist thus a non-Muslim, and yes we can judge and make Takfeer it's in the Shariah if you knew the Hadiths you'd know that people abuse the saying where Muhammad (SAAWS) said that if you falsely accuse someone of being a non-Muslim you are not Muslim and will rot in Hell and all that. I have evidence you are non-Muslim simply the fact you support Communism, Nationalism, and many other things atop the fact you are a Quranist as well this does not equal Islam, all of your arguments are just saying "I am Muslim because I say so" this is not how it works. I'll give you this though arguing with you is frustrating because you always say the same thing about how judging is only for Allah, but you know who else said this? The Khawarij, the Khawarij killed Uthman (RA) who you dislike and Ali (RA) because of this same philosophy, of course Allah is the highest judge but we have the authority to judge those who sin openly this is why we have a Shariah why every Islamic State since the Rashidun era had courts this is why we have books on Fiqh and Tasfeer from the greatest scholars. Islam is an organized religion not just do whatever the Hell I want when I want and if I say this is Islam this is Islam.

False. The Qur'an states at several points what constitutes a Muslim. A Muslim is he or she who believes that Allah is God, that there is but one God, that Muhammad is the Prophet and Messenger of Allah, and that the word of Allah is the Qur'an.

Surah Al-Anfal is very clear on this.

The believers are only those who, when Allah is mentioned, feel a fear in their hearts and when His Verses (this Quran) are recited unto them, they (i.e. the Verses) increase their Faith; and they put their trust in their Lord (Alone);
Who perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and spend out of that We have provided them.

Your attempt to ascribe divine prerogatives to yourself (through your claim that you know a person's heart and the intentions therein) is nothing short of blasphemy of the highest order.

Your comparison to the Khawarij is ridiculous, since the Khawarij do exactly the opposite of leaving judgement up to Allah. They did what Wahhabis do now: usurping divine privilege and pretending to dole out divine justice in the name of Islam.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

You are a Quranist thus a non-Muslim, and yes we can judge and make Takfeer it's in the Shariah if you knew the Hadiths you'd know that people abuse the saying where Muhammad (SAAWS) said that if you falsely accuse someone of being a non-Muslim you are not Muslim and will rot in Hell and all that. I have evidence you are non-Muslim simply the fact you support Communism, Nationalism, and many other things atop the fact you are a Quranist as well this does not equal Islam, all of your arguments are just saying "I am Muslim because I say so" this is not how it works. I'll give you this though arguing with you is frustrating because you always say the same thing about how judging is only for Allah, but you know who else said this? The Khawarij, the Khawarij killed Uthman (RA) who you dislike and Ali (RA) because of this same philosophy, of course Allah is the highest judge but we have the authority to judge those who sin openly this is why we have a Shariah why every Islamic State since the Rashidun era had courts this is why we have books on Fiqh and Tasfeer from the greatest scholars. Islam is an organized religion not just do whatever the Hell I want when I want and if I say this is Islam this is Islam.

False. The Qur'an states at several points what constitutes a Muslim. A Muslim is he or she who believes that Allah is God, that there is but one God, that Muhammad is the Prophet and Messenger of Allah, and that the word of Allah is the Qur'an.

Surah Al-Anfal is very clear on this.

The believers are only those who, when Allah is mentioned, feel a fear in their hearts and when His Verses (this Quran) are recited unto them, they (i.e. the Verses) increase their Faith; and they put their trust in their Lord (Alone);
Who perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and spend out of that We have provided them.

Your attempt to ascribe divine prerogatives to yourself (through your claim that you know a person's heart and the intentions therein) is nothing short of blasphemy of the highest order.

Your comparison to the Khawarij is ridiculous, since the Khawarij do exactly the opposite of leaving judgement up to Allah. They did what Wahhabis do now: usurping divine privilege and pretending to dole out divine justice in the name of Islam.

He's not doing this based on assumptions. He's doing it based on evidence.

[Ereria]

Being a Quranist is the right way of being a muslim. The Quran is the only book we muslims should follow and we should be inspired by hadiths that were written by our prophets closest family and friends, but they shouldn't be seen as holy books. The only holy book is the Quran and it's the only book that is the word of god. Every other book in this world is written by humans and they can make mistakes, the Quran cannot.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

You are a Quranist thus a non-Muslim, and yes we can judge and make Takfeer it's in the Shariah if you knew the Hadiths you'd know that people abuse the saying where Muhammad (SAAWS) said that if you falsely accuse someone of being a non-Muslim you are not Muslim and will rot in Hell and all that. I have evidence you are non-Muslim simply the fact you support Communism, Nationalism, and many other things atop the fact you are a Quranist as well this does not equal Islam, all of your arguments are just saying "I am Muslim because I say so" this is not how it works. I'll give you this though arguing with you is frustrating because you always say the same thing about how judging is only for Allah, but you know who else said this? The Khawarij, the Khawarij killed Uthman (RA) who you dislike and Ali (RA) because of this same philosophy, of course Allah is the highest judge but we have the authority to judge those who sin openly this is why we have a Shariah why every Islamic State since the Rashidun era had courts this is why we have books on Fiqh and Tasfeer from the greatest scholars. Islam is an organized religion not just do whatever the Hell I want when I want and if I say this is Islam this is Islam.

False. The Qur'an states at several points what constitutes a Muslim. A Muslim is he or she who believes that Allah is God, that there is but one God, that Muhammad is the Prophet and Messenger of Allah, and that the word of Allah is the Qur'an.

Surah Al-Anfal is very clear on this.

The believers are only those who, when Allah is mentioned, feel a fear in their hearts and when His Verses (this Quran) are recited unto them, they (i.e. the Verses) increase their Faith; and they put their trust in their Lord (Alone);
Who perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and spend out of that We have provided them.

Your attempt to ascribe divine prerogatives to yourself (through your claim that you know a person's heart and the intentions therein) is nothing short of blasphemy of the highest order.

Your comparison to the Khawarij is ridiculous, since the Khawarij do exactly the opposite of leaving judgement up to Allah. They did what Wahhabis do now: usurping divine privilege and pretending to dole out divine justice in the name of Islam.

Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin.
— Quran 9:66

“And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers’ way, We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell — what an evil destination!”

[al-Nisa’ 4:115]

8. Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.

9. Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!

10. In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).

11. When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"

12. Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.

Baqarah 2:8-12

Evidence of apostasy in Islam, according to Reliance of the Traveller, a 14th-century manual of the Shafi'i school of jurisprudence (Fiqh), includes:

(a) bowing before sun, moon, objects of nature, idols, cross or any images symbolically representing God whether in mere contrariness, sarcastically or with conviction;
(b) intention to commit unbelief, even if one hesitates to do so;
(c) speak words that imply unbelief such as "Allah is the third of three" or "I am Allah";
(d) revile, question, wonder, doubt, mock or deny the existence of God or Prophet of Islam or that the Prophet was sent by God;
(e) revile, deny, or mock any verse of the Quran, or the religion of Islam;
(f) to deny the obligatory character of something considered obligatory by Ijma (consensus of Muslims);
(g) believe that things in themselves or by their nature have cause independent of the will of God;

And you are closer to the Khawarij
They recite the Quran, thinking that it is for them (i.e. supporting their claims) while it is against them.
They recite the Quran but it does not go past their throats,
They kill the Muslims and spare the idolaters. If I live to see them I will kill them like the killing of (the people of ‘Aad).
They insult and defame Muslim leaders, declaring them to be misguided.
The Khawarij do not hold the scholars and people of knowledge in high esteem if their opinions do not conform with theirs.
Imam Al-Ajurri said: “They emerged from various regions and united under the banner of Promoting Virtue and Preventing Vice until they reached Madinah and assassinated Caliph ‘Uthman ibn ‘Affan.”
They distance themselves from the larger body of Muslims, undermining their institutions and leadership.
They are kind to the disbelievers but harsh on the believers

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Being a Quranist is the right way of being a muslim. The Quran is the only book we muslims should follow and we should be inspired by hadiths that were written by our prophets closest family and friends, but they shouldn't be seen as holy books. The only holy book is the Quran and it's the only book that is the word of god. Every other book in this world is written by humans and they can make mistakes, the Quran cannot.

Yet the Quran says obey Allah and his messenger how do you want to obey the messenger if you deny his sayings.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Being a Quranist is the right way of being a muslim. The Quran is the only book we muslims should follow and we should be inspired by hadiths that were written by our prophets closest family and friends, but they shouldn't be seen as holy books. The only holy book is the Quran and it's the only book that is the word of god. Every other book in this world is written by humans and they can make mistakes, the Quran cannot.

Yet the Quran says obey Allah and his messenger how do you want to obey the messenger if you deny his sayings.

He's not denying them, he's saying that they should be used, but not revered as holy.

[Ereria]

Being a Quranist is the right way of being a muslim. The Quran is the only book we muslims should follow and we should be inspired by hadiths that were written by our prophets closest family and friends, but they shouldn't be seen as holy books. The only holy book is the Quran and it's the only book that is the word of god. Every other book in this world is written by humans and they can make mistakes, the Quran cannot.

Yet the Quran says obey Allah and his messenger how do you want to obey the messenger if you deny his sayings.

Im not denying his sayings, and as I said we can use the hadiths as a sort of 'source' for how our prophet lived, for example if Abu Bakr (pbuh) has a hadith that teaches us of how our prophet lived, we can be sure that he isn't lying. Some hadiths aren't relaible and holding them as holy when they are written by humans in my opinion is shirk.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Yet the Quran says obey Allah and his messenger how do you want to obey the messenger if you deny his sayings.

Im not denying his sayings, and as I said we can use the hadiths as a sort of 'source' for how our prophet lived, for example if Abu Bakr (pbuh) has a hadith that teaches us of how our prophet lived, we can be sure that he isn't lying. Some hadiths aren't relaible and holding them as holy when they are written by humans in my opinion is shirk.

Because Mustafa Kemal is the best in Qiyas from our Ummah

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Im not denying his sayings, and as I said we can use the hadiths as a sort of 'source' for how our prophet lived, for example if Abu Bakr (pbuh) has a hadith that teaches us of how our prophet lived, we can be sure that he isn't lying. Some hadiths aren't relaible and holding them as holy when they are written by humans in my opinion is shirk.

Because Mustafa Kemal is the best in Qiyas from our Ummah

Who said that?

[Ereria]

Im not denying his sayings, and as I said we can use the hadiths as a sort of 'source' for how our prophet lived, for example if Abu Bakr (pbuh) has a hadith that teaches us of how our prophet lived, we can be sure that he isn't lying. Some hadiths aren't relaible and holding them as holy when they are written by humans in my opinion is shirk.

Because Mustafa Kemal is the best in Qiyas from our Ummah

I don't understand why you mix in Mustafa Kemal Atatürk into this.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Yet the Quran says obey Allah and his messenger how do you want to obey the messenger if you deny his sayings.

Im not denying his sayings, and as I said we can use the hadiths as a sort of 'source' for how our prophet lived, for example if Abu Bakr (pbuh) has a hadith that teaches us of how our prophet lived, we can be sure that he isn't lying. Some hadiths aren't relaible and holding them as holy when they are written by humans in my opinion is shirk.

Agreed.
And my apologies for not saying this before: Assalamu 'Alaikum wa RaHmatullahi wa Barakatihuh

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Because Mustafa Kemal is the best in Qiyas from our Ummah

I don't understand why you mix in Mustafa Kemal Atatürk into this.

I'm saying you are not following the Ijma but rather you follow people like him, don't call yourself a Quranist there is only Islam not all this other stuff.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

He changed his stance on that a while ago.

He still has not renounced his other stances.

True, but I have to think about the degree of support. I like Communism also, but in a Islamic society, I wouldn't implement that because Allah (SWT) has already given us regulations for things like this and more, AlHamdulillah. This can be found in a factbook of mine.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

He still has not renounced his other stances.

True, but I have to think about the degree of support. I like Communism also, but in a Islamic society, I wouldn't implement that because Allah (SWT) has already given us regulations for things like this and more, AlHamdulillah. This can be found in a factbook of mine.

I don't care what non-Muslims live by in other non-Muslim countries, Islam is the only system that works and we are free from the chains of all these other inferior systems.

[Mahdistan]

There are no 'sides' in Islam- there is only Islam

Should you have forgotten that hadith, I will remind you.
Imām al-Barbahārī (V died 329 AH) stated: “Know that Allah’s Messenger (H) said: “My ummah will divide into 73 sects, all of them will be in the Fire except for one, and that is the Jamā’ah.” It was said, “And who are they, O Allah’s Messenger?” He responded, “That which I and my Companions are upon today.”

There are sides everywhere, especially in Islam. Either you choose the right path or the path of the deviant eclectic sectarians, or the goddamn "moderates". Tertium non datur.

I know it is looked down upon to quote DEATed/banned nations, but to make my point:

A sect is something different from a 'side'- being on a 'side' implies that you are automatically divided from those on the other side, which is clearly forbidden in the Quran:

Al-Quran, Surah Ar-Rum [30:31-32]:
[Adhere to it], turning in repentance to Him, and fear Him and establish prayer and do not be of those who associate others with Allah

[Or] of those who have divided their religion and become sects, every faction rejoicing in what it has.