Islamic Discussion Thread ٣

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

No, the claim we are discussing is that "Muhammed cannot be pagan because he removed pagan idols from the Kaaba".

If however there were dozens of pagan sects that were all more than willing to smash eachothers places.of worship that statement becomes utterly nonsensical.

Hence the question if there was onmy one sect of pagans in the area.

Again - according to Islamic terms he's not a Pagan.

What's wrong with believing someone other than God is worthy of veneration? Worshiping a God doesn't require you to not venerate anyone else, and in my view, a religion which requires one to not venerate any mortal, to think that no human is a good person is unhealthy and misanthropic.

Islamically speaking, it's wrong. You can have any other opinion about it, but Islamically it's not done per Quran. Again - according to the Quran we're made to submit and worship God, and God only.

I still think that's kinda misanthropic.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

[align=justify]Salaam, brothers and sisters.

Wa'Alaikum Assalam

I am not a Muslim, or of any Abrahamic faith, but what I am is not among the people of the book, so I am not sure if I'm allowed in here.

All people of any religion or lack thereof are welcome here.

I've done some research on Islam, and what particularly interests me is Tatarstan. Now, the media is fearmongering about Islam and Muslims in general ever since 9/11, but what they overlook is Tatarstan, and her people, the Tatars, having very strong interfaith relations. I know that Jews and Muslims don't always get along, because of the conflict over Israel, Palestine and whatnot, but we have here, in Tatarstan's capital of Kazan, a 100-year-old synagogue is being restored and both Muslim and Christian leaders throughout the Republic laud its restoration. And then there's the Temple of All Religions which I've never seen anything like before in my lifetime, and plans to honour sixteen faiths.

And then there's the Christians and Jews helping out the local Muslims somewhere in Texas when the latter's mosque burned down. Then, also in Texas, a victim of Islamophobia campaigned (and failed) to save his would-be killer from death row*.

AlHamdulillah.
But as for the Temple of all Religions, I'm about that. I applaud the builder's intentions. We should always strive to make peace with each other and not fight. But I feel this Temple would cause Muslims to stray from as-siraat al-mustaqeem. How is the Temple used?

You know I used to be pretty Islamophobic and frightened of Muslims, well my opinion was the niqāb worn by women as per their interpretation of the Qu'ran frightened me, and also the media fearmongering didn't help my fears, either. But having gotten to know a few Muslims who have become akin to friends (I have few friends), and also reading up about Islam. Not just about ISIS, or Al-Queda, or the Taliban. But about the Golden Age of Islam, where women could go to university, where (if I recall from a book I read years ago, "Tea with Arwa", correct me if I'm wrong) Islam puts great emphasis on education of both boys and girls. I mean, I still don't understand, and I don't know how much I can understand as a non-believer. But Islam fascinates me, as much as I am still a bit fearful of the faith because I don't want to have misunderstandings, which I worry might be insensitive towards individual Muslims.

Its great that you've read up on our history. It's one of the best imo.
Also, it's ok that you have misunderstandings, just be respectful, and be honest, and we'll be glad to help.

I won't say Islam is necessarily feminist, but for its time as conceived by Muhammad back in his lifetime, when women had no rights in pre-Islamic Arabia, he advocated for unprecedented rights for that era.

I have a few questions though, from stuff I've read in the past (which I should keep track of), and I hope that some of you people (you seem nice enough) can clarify:

1. I heard Islam was taught to adapt to the modern society, while keeping its intrinsic values (citation: "Tea with Arwa"). Does the Qu'ran, Hadith, or Sharia say anything about this? If so, what is the exact quotation? For example, contraception (besides pulling out) wasn't invented in Muhammad's lifetime, but scholarly interpretation based on a line in one of the books (Qu'ran, Hadith, Sharia, I forgot) permitted contraception. Also, cars weren't invented, but I read in "Tea with Arwa" that the Muslim author (Arwa) said that Islam taught parents to teach both boys and girls swimming, archery, and horse-riding, and so horse-riding could be interpreted as also accommodating the driving of cars, despite what Saudi law dictated for the longest time, while (in my opinion, hypocritically) Saudi Arabia allows women to fly aircraft, despite that being the same basic thing as driving a car: making a large metal box move either forwards or backwards.

What Muslims do in modern times should fit into Al-Islam, so yes, you are correct. As for Saudi Arabia, yeah they are crazy.

There are people such as Salman Rushdie, Geert Wilders, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali (full disclosure: I am not fond of any of those individuals) who criticise Islam with a broad brush, targeting all Muslims to score points, and from what I can see from the radical Islamists, they interpret criticism as blasphemy, and the punishment varies (though radical Islamists wants the blasphemers executed). But I read lightly that Islam received criticism in its early days and there wasn't really much backlash (though that could be from the little influence that could be exerted).

Yes, blasphemy is wrong, but afaik, we can't punish anyone, especially someone who doesn't even practice the Deen. The Holy Qur'an states: http://legacy.quran.com/2/256 So Muslims can't really be harming anyone. Yes, speaking ill of our religion is offensive, and plain stupid if someone doesn't know anything about it.

I would like to ask, is non-malicious (with the intent for healthy debate, not tar all Muslims with the same brush, or being informed and making critiques based on said informed status) or constructive criticism permitted?

As I said before, Muslims shouldn't harm non-Muslims who crticize Al-Islam, but nonetheless, I'd strongly disagree with you on any criticisms you say about Al-Islam.

I know FGM and honor-killing aren't listed in the Qu'ran, and I will not say for a moment they are Muslim customs (from what I know, they are present in even non-Muslim communities, and FGM originated in Ancient Egypt, it seems). I read somewhere that body piercings (except for the ears of women), tattooing, and branding fall under the unnecessary mutilation of Allah's creation, much like drugs and alcohol does, and despite what tradition in pre-Islamic countries carried down the generations, is there a fatwā against FGM anywhere? Is there also a similar fatwā against honor-killing as well? I mean, honor-killing is the murder of another Muslim, and whether there is proof or not of zina (adultery, whether pre-marital or extra-marital) and I'm sure there isn't the death penalty for that, but rather for the murderer (which I think has to be sanctioned by a court, or in battle with an enemy).

Yes, honor killings have no place in Al-Islam and are in fact sinful. They are a cultural thing, not an Islamic thing. As for FGC, it is allowed, but the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) told us not to go to extremes when cutting. On to0 of that, FGC is optional for the woman. She MUST have a say in the matter.

I hope you don't think my questions are in bad faith, though. I feel that my questions might be interpreted as such, but I'm hoping to learn more about Islam. I'm not trying to poke holes in your faith, or belittle any believers, I'm just curious. It saddens me that my relatively new-found revelations on Islam from searching around the internet and reading books have been perverted by the likes of terrorist groups, cherry-picking, theocracies, and also by anti-Islam politicians.

I see your questions as honestly trying to learn more about Al-Islam, to broaden your knowledge and surroundings. I applaud you for that

[Jolthig]

Besides the point, Muhammad (saw) smashing the idols of the House is prophecized in the Qu'ran, and in Hadith, Muhammad (saw) said this while smashing idols.

And say, ‘Truth has come and falsehood has vanished away. Falsehood does indeed vanish away fast.’

Narrated `Abdullah bin Masud:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) entered Mecca (in the year of the Conquest) and there were three-hundred and sixty idols around the Ka`ba. He then started hitting them with a stick in his hand and say: 'Truth (i.e. Islam) has come and falsehood (disbelief) vanished. Truly falsehood (disbelief) is ever bound to vanish.' (17.81) 'Truth has come and falsehood (Iblis) can not create anything.' (34.49)

The context of these is clear that all idols were to be removed.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Besides the point, Muhammad (saw) smashing the idols of the House is prophecized in the Qu'ran, and in Hadith, Muhammad (saw) said this while smashing idols.

And say, ‘Truth has come and falsehood has vanished away. Falsehood does indeed vanish away fast.’

Narrated `Abdullah bin Masud:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) entered Mecca (in the year of the Conquest) and there were three-hundred and sixty idols around the Ka`ba. He then started hitting them with a stick in his hand and say: 'Truth (i.e. Islam) has come and falsehood (disbelief) vanished. Truly falsehood (disbelief) is ever bound to vanish.' (17.81) 'Truth has come and falsehood (Iblis) can not create anything.' (34.49)

The context of these is clear that all idols were to be removed.

سُبْحَنَ ٱللَّه وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّه وٱللَّهُ أَكْبَر

[Jolthig]

So funny story: I was preaching with my brothers today and near the end of the preaching, an old bicyclist rode by past us and then exclaimed, "Muhammad was a pedophile!" (God forbid!! Astaghfirallah) and I couldn't resist and these words flew out of mouth as he biked away, "No he wasn't!"

I got no response from him, but I could tell what he did was cowardly. He's not interested in debating us or talking with us. Just slandering and defaming the Prophet (saw). Granted, I should be more careful, but I don't like it when people lie about Muhammad (saw), especially in a cowardly and childish manner. Plus, I felt I had to say it because I wanted to let him know he was wrong as he biked away on his bike.

I also feel this is the same demeanor some of the people that come on here to raise allegations against Islam and Muhammad (saw) have ad that old man I engaged. They'll most likely engage you on the internet, but they won't in real life because they are fearful that we will somehow kill them. Some of you may know what specific people I am talking about.

If only Allah opened up their hearts and they see for themselves the beauty of Islam, they wouldn't be so hateful and cowardly.

And not all the people who raise allegations fit in this category if anyone misunderstands this post. Some are nice people and not emotional in their arguments. But I feel that some of those who have on Islam and Muhammad (saw) have the demeanor of that childish old man. No offense to any of you that see this. And forgive me mods and those who feel offended by this post. I just wanted to share my thoughts on this subject

Also, it's not funny that the old man defamed Muhammad (saw), but the fact that he ran away when he said that

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

So funny story: I was preaching with my brothers today and near the end of the preaching, an old bicyclist rode by past us and then exclaimed, "Muhammad was a pedophile!" (God forbid!! Astaghfirallah) and I couldn't resist and these words flew out of mouth as he biked away, "No he wasn't!"

I got no response from him, but I could tell what he did was cowardly. He's not interested in debating us or talking with us. Just slandering and defaming the Prophet (saw). Granted, I should be more careful, but I don't like it when people like about Muhammad (saw), especially in a cowardly and childish manner. Plus, I felt I had to say it because I wanted to let him know he was wrong as he biked away on his bike.

I also feel this is the same demeanor some of the people that come on here to raise allegations against Islam and Muhammad (saw) have ad that old man I engaged. They'll most likely engage you on the internet, but they won't in real life because they are fearful that we will somehow kill them. Some of you may know what specific people I am talking about.

If only Allah opened up their hearts and they see for themselves the beauty of Islam, they wouldn't be so hateful and cowardly.

And not all the people who raise allegations fit in this category if anyone misunderstands this post. Some are nice people and not emotional in their arguments. But I feel that some of those who have on Islam and Muhammad (saw) have the demeanor of that childish old man. No offense to any of you that see this. And forgive me mods and those who feel offended by this post. I just wanted to share my thoughts on this subject

Muhammad was a paedophile. He fucked Aisha when she was like 9. (Yes, the Qur'an stated she had had an early period, but early puberty is not justification to bang her)

[Pilarcraft]

So funny story: I was preaching with my brothers today and near the end of the preaching, an old bicyclist rode by past us and then exclaimed, "Muhammad was a pedophile!" (God forbid!! Astaghfirallah) and I couldn't resist and these words flew out of mouth as he biked away, "No he wasn't!"

I got no response from him, but I could tell what he did was cowardly. He's not interested in debating us or talking with us. Just slandering and defaming the Prophet (saw). Granted, I should be more careful, but I don't like it when people like about Muhammad (saw), especially in a cowardly and childish manner. Plus, I felt I had to say it because I wanted to let him know he was wrong as he biked away on his bike.

I also feel this is the same demeanor some of the people that come on here to raise allegations against Islam and Muhammad (saw) have ad that old man I engaged. They'll most likely engage you on the internet, but they won't in real life because they are fearful that we will somehow kill them. Some of you may know what specific people I am talking about.

If only Allah opened up their hearts and they see for themselves the beauty of Islam, they wouldn't be so hateful and cowardly.

And not all the people who raise allegations fit in this category if anyone misunderstands this post. Some are nice people and not emotional in their arguments. But I feel that some of those who have on Islam and Muhammad (saw) have the demeanor of that childish old man. No offense to any of you that see this. And forgive me mods and those who feel offended by this post. I just wanted to share my thoughts on this subject

Muhammad was a paedophile. He fucked Aisha when she was like 9. (Yes, the Qur'an stated she had had an early period, but early puberty is not justification to bang her)

(There is debate on whether Aisha was 9 when she got 'married' or older. I mean, given the age difference it doesn't matter (morally speaking, a 50 year old fucking a 16 year old is still bad)

[Jolthig]

So funny story: I was preaching with my brothers today and near the end of the preaching, an old bicyclist rode by past us and then exclaimed, "Muhammad was a pedophile!" (God forbid!! Astaghfirallah) and I couldn't resist and these words flew out of mouth as he biked away, "No he wasn't!"

I got no response from him, but I could tell what he did was cowardly. He's not interested in debating us or talking with us. Just slandering and defaming the Prophet (saw). Granted, I should be more careful, but I don't like it when people like about Muhammad (saw), especially in a cowardly and childish manner. Plus, I felt I had to say it because I wanted to let him know he was wrong as he biked away on his bike.

I also feel this is the same demeanor some of the people that come on here to raise allegations against Islam and Muhammad (saw) have ad that old man I engaged. They'll most likely engage you on the internet, but they won't in real life because they are fearful that we will somehow kill them. Some of you may know what specific people I am talking about.

If only Allah opened up their hearts and they see for themselves the beauty of Islam, they wouldn't be so hateful and cowardly.

And not all the people who raise allegations fit in this category if anyone misunderstands this post. Some are nice people and not emotional in their arguments. But I feel that some of those who have on Islam and Muhammad (saw) have the demeanor of that childish old man. No offense to any of you that see this. And forgive me mods and those who feel offended by this post. I just wanted to share my thoughts on this subject

Muhammad was a paedophile. He fucked Aisha when she was like 9. (Yes, the Qur'an stated she had had an early period, but early puberty is not justification to bang her)

Evidence?

Also the wife must be mentally matured as well when you marry

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Muhammad was a paedophile. He fucked Aisha when she was like 9. (Yes, the Qur'an stated she had had an early period, but early puberty is not justification to bang her)

Evidence?

Also the wife must be mentally matured as well when you marry

There's a lot of evidence that A'isha (RA) was 9. Yet she was highly matured too.

[Jolthig]

Evidence?

Also the wife must be mentally matured as well when you marry

There's a lot of evidence that A'isha (RA) was 9. Yet she was highly matured too.

In the view of the Ahmadiyya, I believe our scholars say she was 15-19

[Pilarcraft]

Evidence?

Also the wife must be mentally matured as well when you marry

There's a lot of evidence that A'isha (RA) was 9. Yet she was highly matured too.

Women don't reach mental maturity at the age of nine, mate. or even 15.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

http://www.islamicity.org/3390/at-what- ... mmad-pbuh/

[Socialist Czechia]

There's a lot of evidence that A'isha (RA) was 9. Yet she was highly matured too.

Women don't reach mental maturity at the age of nine, mate. or even 15.

to be fair, 15 is legal age for sex in many countries already, and there's arguing it can be even lower, 13-14.
so in my homeland, technically it's okay when 60 year old bangs 15 year old.

[Pilarcraft]

Women don't reach mental maturity at the age of nine, mate. or even 15.

to be fair, 15 is legal age for sex in many countries already, and there's arguing it can be even lower, 13-14.
so in my homeland, technically it's okay when 60 year old bangs 15 year old.

AFAIK, even in countries where a lower age of consent exists, it's for people of a relatively similar age (say, 15 and 16. or 15 and 17), not 15 and 55.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

http://www.discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm

[The Grims]

to be fair, 15 is legal age for sex in many countries already, and there's arguing it can be even lower, 13-14.
so in my homeland, technically it's okay when 60 year old bangs 15 year old.

AFAIK, even in countries where a lower age of consent exists, it's for people of a relatively similar age (say, 15 and 16. or 15 and 17), not 15 and 55.

True, though 16 and 55 actually is acceptable in many of those countries, even if 15 and 55 is not.

[Genivaria]

http://www.discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm

Even if she was in fact 9 years old, this marriage is still justified for the following reasons:


(a) She reached the age of puberty.

*vomits*

(b) The marriage happened 1400 ago, not today. At that time, their marriage was not considered unusual and the proof is that the enemies of Muslims at that time did not criticize this marriage. They attacked prophet Mohammad on many issues, yet they didn't criticize his marriage to Aisha.

Good to know we've abandoned any claims to objective morality and our relying on cultural relativism to justify this.
Yes we're aware that pedophila was acceptable 1400 years ago in many place, so what?

[Jolthig]

Other than that, preaching went well today alhamdulilah though another Islamophobe said to my friends on the other side of the block that he'd rather shoot a Muslim than meet one. And he was given the response of peace.

These people are so blind and arrogant that it's not even about religion anymore. It's now about personalities

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Other than that, preaching went well today alhamdulilah though another Islamophobe said to my friends on the other side of the block the he'd rather shoot a Muslim than meet one. And he was given the response of peace.

These people are so blind and arrogant that it's not even about religion anymore. It's now about personalities

I wanna laugh, but considering the violence we face....maybe not.
On the other hand, AlHamdulillah that your day went well.

[Jolthig]

Other than that, preaching went well today alhamdulilah though another Islamophobe said to my friends on the other side of the block the he'd rather shoot a Muslim than meet one. And he was given the response of peace.

These people are so blind and arrogant that it's not even about religion anymore. It's now about personalities

I wanna laugh, but considering the violence we face....maybe not.
On the other hand, AlHamdulillah that your day went well.

If he really wanted to kill us, he would've done so, but he's cowardly like the other person

[Geneviev]

Other than that, preaching went well today alhamdulilah though another Islamophobe said to my friends on the other side of the block that he'd rather shoot a Muslim than meet one. And he was given the response of peace.

These people are so blind and arrogant that it's not even about religion anymore. It's now about personalities

Wow. I don't understand why anyone would want to shoot you.

[Jolthig]

Other than that, preaching went well today alhamdulilah though another Islamophobe said to my friends on the other side of the block that he'd rather shoot a Muslim than meet one. And he was given the response of peace.

These people are so blind and arrogant that it's not even about religion anymore. It's now about personalities

Wow. I don't understand why anyone would want to shoot you.

It is the same reason why ISIS wants to kill non Muslims

[Genivaria]

Other than that, preaching went well today alhamdulilah though another Islamophobe said to my friends on the other side of the block that he'd rather shoot a Muslim than meet one. And he was given the response of peace.

These people are so blind and arrogant that it's not even about religion anymore. It's now about personalities

Wow. I don't understand why anyone would want to shoot you.

Some people are just filled with hate.

[Geneviev]

Wow. I don't understand why anyone would want to shoot you.

It is the same reason why ISIS wants to kill non Muslims

Absolutely disgusting. Humans as a whole are not too great.

[Jolthig]

It is the same reason why ISIS wants to kill non Muslims

Absolutely disgusting. Humans as a whole are not too great.

Yeah, that's how humanity is.