Islamic Discussion Thread ٣

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Just a reminder that the House of Saud is full of hypocrites

You are a hypocrite

Someone disagreeing with you =/= hypocrisy, akhi.

[Larin]

You are a hypocrite

no u

No you

[Kartofian]

What do you define as a "Western country" because,I can assure you that Russia (which, like other countries, has corruption) is not Western, but Eastern.

Western countries: USA, Mexico, Netherlands etc.
Non-western countries: Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE, Egypt etc.

But, is there some objective criteria? Or are you just picking whether countries are western or eastern? Is Argentina, western? What about Nigeria?

Yeah, Mongolia is democratic with only occasional foreign electoral interference - but yeah tot's democratic. And Japan is just an inch away from being a one party state, and Abe's corruption scandals aren't helping - at least the Japanese people seem pretty pissed at that.

Don't know enough about others to make a judgement, but India went through a pretty authoritarian phase under Indira.

The term democracy, in non academic settings, tends to be thrown around quite carelessly; it also has a tendency to change over time - considering that a slave-holding oligarchic republic was once considered to be a democracy.

The Democracy Index places the ones I listed pretty high, especially when you compare it with their neighbors. Although the LDP has a large majority in the Japanese House, it's not near a one-party state like Russia. And as you pointed out, Japanese people aren't usually that thrilled about Abe's corruption.

But, you get my point about the pretty arbitrary definition of a democracy.

In regards to the Democracy index: I am not questioning their validity, but I stand by my point that the use of the term democracy, the Index own definition as well, is very subjective - as are many things in politics.

Most answers are "experts' assessments"; the report does not indicate what kinds of experts, nor their number, nor whether the experts are employees of the Economist Intelligence Unit or independent scholars, nor the nationalities of the experts. Some answers are provided by public-opinion surveys from the respective countries. In the case of countries for which survey results are missing, survey results for similar countries and expert assessments are used in order to fill in gaps.

[Larin]

Western countries: USA, Mexico, Netherlands etc.
Non-western countries: Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE, Egypt etc.

But, is there some objective criteria? Or are you just picking whether countries are western or eastern? Is Argentina, western? What about Nigeria?

The Democracy Index places the ones I listed pretty high, especially when you compare it with their neighbors. Although the LDP has a large majority in the Japanese House, it's not near a one-party state like Russia. And as you pointed out, Japanese people aren't usually that thrilled about Abe's corruption.

But, you get my point about the pretty arbitrary definition of a democracy.

In regards to the Democracy index: I am not questioning their validity, but I stand by my point that the use of the term democracy, the Index own definition as well, is very subjective - as are many things in politics.

Most answers are "experts' assessments"; the report does not indicate what kinds of experts, nor their number, nor whether the experts are employees of the Economist Intelligence Unit or independent scholars, nor the nationalities of the experts. Some answers are provided by public-opinion surveys from the respective countries. In the case of countries for which survey results are missing, survey results for similar countries and expert assessments are used in order to fill in gaps.

I mean the westernized countries

[Kartofian]

But, is there some objective criteria? Or are you just picking whether countries are western or eastern? Is Argentina, western? What about Nigeria?
But, you get my point about the pretty arbitrary definition of a democracy.

In regards to the Democracy index: I am not questioning their validity, but I stand by my point that the use of the term democracy, the Index own definition as well, is very subjective - as are many things in politics.

I mean the westernized countries

Yes, but what's a westernized country? Does it have to have a certain technological level? Literacy level? GDP per capita? Certain institutions? Cultural practices?

[Larin]

I mean the westernized countries

Yes, but what's a westernized country? Does it have to have a certain technological level? Literacy level? GDP per capita? Certain institutions? Cultural practices?

For me westernization is: Going too far in technology, American imperialism, Sexualizing woman, allowance pop and hiphop music, allowing nudity in public, allowance of tattoos and piercings, tolerating Transgenderism and man-to-man sexual activity, and same-sex marriage

[Cekoviu]

But, is there some objective criteria? Or are you just picking whether countries are western or eastern? Is Argentina, western? What about Nigeria?
But, you get my point about the pretty arbitrary definition of a democracy.

In regards to the Democracy index: I am not questioning their validity, but I stand by my point that the use of the term democracy, the Index own definition as well, is very subjective - as are many things in politics.

I mean the westernized countries

As Kart said, what's a Westernized country? Georgia has made an effort in recent years to become more like the West (partially or mostly because it wants to join the EU), but it's religious, rather undemocratic, conservative, etc., which aren't Western values, and a case could be made that it's part of the East or a crossroads between the two.

[Cekoviu]

Yes, but what's a westernized country? Does it have to have a certain technological level? Literacy level? GDP per capita? Certain institutions? Cultural practices?

For me westernization is: Going too far in technology, American imperialism, Sexualizing woman, allowance pop and hiphop music, allowing nudity in public, allowance of tattoos and piercings, tolerating Transgenderism and man-to-man sexual activity, and same-sex marriage

Continuing my Georgia example: they allow pop and hip-hop, tattoos, allow women to wear the clothes that they'd like, and you can change your legal gender marker or be in a gay relationship (ostensibly) without being arrested or attacked. But they aren't American and haven't been the subject of American imperialism, same-sex marriage is illegal, nudity isn't legal in public areas as far as I know, and may or may not have "[gone] too far in technology" depending on what you mean by that. So how are you supposed to class it?

[Mujahidah]

Just a reminder that the House of Saud is full of hypocrites

You are a hypocrite

No, I'm not, really.

Nice refutation, by the way

[Mujahidah]

You are a hypocrite

Someone disagreeing with you =/= hypocrisy, akhi.

He's a Salafi. He thinks his revisionist so-called "revivalist" interpretation of Islam is the only true way, and therefore any Muslim who doesn't like it is a hypocrite.

I also believe he's a convert, interestingly, so he may not be the best instructed.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Yes, but what's a westernized country? Does it have to have a certain technological level? Literacy level? GDP per capita? Certain institutions? Cultural practices?

For me westernization is: Going too far in technology

What's that mean?

American imperialism

What about other Western imperialisms?

allowance pop and hiphop music

That's prevalent in the East also

allowing nudity in public

Also prevalent in some non-Western countries

allowance of tattoos and piercings

Also prevalent in some non-Western countries

tolerating Transgenderism and man-to-man sexual activity, and same-sex marriage

Also prevalent in some non-Western countries

[Larin]

For me westernization is: Going too far in technology, American imperialism, Sexualizing woman, allowance pop and hiphop music, allowing nudity in public, allowance of tattoos and piercings, tolerating Transgenderism and man-to-man sexual activity, and same-sex marriage

Continuing my Georgia example: they allow pop and hip-hop, tattoos, allow women to wear the clothes that they'd like, and you can change your legal gender marker or be in a gay relationship (ostensibly) without being arrested or attacked. But they aren't American and haven't been the subject of American imperialism, same-sex marriage is illegal, nudity isn't legal in public areas as far as I know, and may or may not have "[gone] too far in technology" depending on what you mean by that. So how are you supposed to class it?

That technology should remain the same as it is now, or they should cut it back a bit, and that you can’t change your gender, and that a man shouldn’t be allowed to have a relationship with a another man, and that same-sex marriage should be outlawed, pop and hip-hop and tattoos and piercings should be banned, and i think that woman should wear decent clothes (like a Niqab or a Hijab and a abaya), that’s how i see and want it.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Someone disagreeing with you =/= hypocrisy, akhi.

He's a Salafi. He thinks his revisionist so-called "revivalist" interpretation of Islam is the only true way, and therefore any Muslim who doesn't like it is a hypocrite.

I also believe he's a convert, interestingly, so he may not be the best instructed.

He is a convert.
Wait, I thought you were a convert.

[Mujahidah]

technology should remain the same as it is now

Why? What, fundamentally, is wrong with technology?

[Genivaria]

For me westernization is: Going too far in technology

What's that mean?

American imperialism

What about other Western imperialisms?

allowance pop and hiphop music

That's prevalent in the East also

allowing nudity in public

Also prevalent in some non-Western countries

allowance of tattoos and piercings

Also prevalent in some non-Western countries

tolerating Transgenderism and man-to-man sexual activity, and same-sex marriage

Also prevalent in some non-Western countries

-Complains about specifically American imperialism
-Complains about public nudity which is illegal in America
Yeah okay.

[Mujahidah]

He's a Salafi. He thinks his revisionist so-called "revivalist" interpretation of Islam is the only true way, and therefore any Muslim who doesn't like it is a hypocrite.

I also believe he's a convert, interestingly, so he may not be the best instructed.

He is a convert.
Wait, I thought you were a convert.

No.... both my parents are Muslim.

[Kartofian]

Continuing my Georgia example: they allow pop and hip-hop, tattoos, allow women to wear the clothes that they'd like, and you can change your legal gender marker or be in a gay relationship (ostensibly) without being arrested or attacked. But they aren't American and haven't been the subject of American imperialism, same-sex marriage is illegal, nudity isn't legal in public areas as far as I know, and may or may not have "[gone] too far in technology" depending on what you mean by that. So how are you supposed to class it?

That technology should remain the same as it is now, or they should cut it back a bit, and that you can’t change your gender, and that a man shouldn’t be allowed to have a relationship with a another man, and that same-sex marriage should be outlawed, pop and hip-hop and tattoos and piercings should be banned, and i think that woman should wear decent clothes (like a Niqab or a Hijab and a abaya), that’s how i see and want it.

So.... it's another one of "everything I don't like is X".

Can you also elaborate what you mean by technology? That point seems pretty bizarre, since I never heard of a primitivist interpretation of Islam.

[Larin]

technology should remain the same as it is now

Why? What, fundamentally, is wrong with technology?

I am not against technology, but the technology of how it is now is going to far in the future, that’s why they shouldn’t change anything about it anymore or cut it back a bit

[The Alma Mater]

Continuing my Georgia example: they allow pop and hip-hop, tattoos, allow women to wear the clothes that they'd like, and you can change your legal gender marker or be in a gay relationship (ostensibly) without being arrested or attacked. But they aren't American and haven't been the subject of American imperialism, same-sex marriage is illegal, nudity isn't legal in public areas as far as I know, and may or may not have "[gone] too far in technology" depending on what you mean by that. So how are you supposed to class it?

That technology should remain the same as it is now, or they should cut it back a bit

Which areas ? If we cut back on GMO for instance half the world will starve.

[Kartofian]

Why? What, fundamentally, is wrong with technology?

I am not against technology, but the technology of how it is now is going to far in the future, that’s why they shouldn’t change anything about it anymore or cut it back a bit

Do you mean Sophia the robot? iPhone X? or the Hadron collider?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

That technology should remain the same as it is now, or they should cut it back a bit

What do you mean?

and that a man shouldn’t be allowed to have a relationship with a another man

Same for women. Btw this should only apply to Muslims.

pop and hip-hop and tattoos and piercings should be banned

Some piercings are halal, shy should pop and hip-hop be banned?

and i think that woman should wear decent clothes (like a Niqab or a Hijab and a abaya), that’s how i see and want it.

Well as long as it's in accordance to the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah, I'm down. But technological stagnation is not a fardh.

[Mujahidah]

Why? What, fundamentally, is wrong with technology?

I am not against technology, but the technology of how it is now is going to far in the future, that’s why they shouldn’t change anything about it anymore or cut it back a bit

Why shouldn't technology advance though? What is wrong with, for instance, faster airliners, or more fuel efficient cars?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

He is a convert.
Wait, I thought you were a convert.

No.... both my parents are Muslim.

Ooooh. Mine too. They converted into Al-Islam before I was born.

[Genivaria]

That technology should remain the same as it is now, or they should cut it back a bit

What do you mean?

and that a man shouldn’t be allowed to have a relationship with a another man

Same for women. Btw this should only apply to Muslims.

pop and hip-hop and tattoos and piercings should be banned

Some piercings are halal, shy should pop and hip-hop be banned?

and i think that woman should wear decent clothes (like a Niqab or a Hijab and a abaya), that’s how i see and want it.

Well as long as it's in accordance to the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah, I'm down. But technological stagnation is not a fardh.

Funny that I support freedom for Muslims more than you do.

[Larin]

I am not against technology, but the technology of how it is now is going to far in the future, that’s why they shouldn’t change anything about it anymore or cut it back a bit

Do you mean Sophia the robot? iPhone X? or the Hadron collider?

Idk what Hadron is but on robots they really need to stop, and a iPhone X is cool by me