Islamic Discussion Thread ٣

[The Knockout Gun Gals]

To be fair, the weakening of the Saudi regime is a good thing if it can result in better people taking power.

Yes, some good things. Perhaps it is really good.

[Genivaria]

Slowly making their way to the 1800's I see. Progress.

What are you doing here, Geni? A Muslim as well, like the rest of us? It's great to see one more.

....yes.

Hey I post alot in the RWDT to, the LWDT is boring.

[Negarakita]

What are you doing here, Geni? A Muslim as well, like the rest of us? It's great to see one more.

....yes.

Thats some muslim grade taqiyya

[The Knockout Gun Gals]

What are you doing here, Geni? A Muslim as well, like the rest of us? It's great to see one more.

....yes.

Hey I post alot in the RWDT to, the LWDT is boring.

That's something lad.

Good to see you here, regardless.

[Alsheb]

To be fair, the weakening of the Saudi regime is a good thing if it can result in better people taking power.

Yes, some good things. Perhaps it is really good.

All sort of weakening of the Najdi state is a good thing.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Assalamu 'Alaikum. Bismillahi rraHmani rraHeem.
So me and Mujahidah were debated about wife 'beatings' in Al-Islam. While i was giving sources showing that the 'beatings' were actually "light taps", I came across a source that said that the translation for 4:34 (the verse that speaks of 'beatings') may be wrong:

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/quran-4-34.htm:
"If even suspension of sexual relations fails to work, then it is suggested that men use dharb. This word has almost universally been translated here as "beating". Such a translation is supported by some passages in the Qur'an where the word does mean smiting or striking (2:60, 61, 73, 8:12, 50, 7:160 etc). But in many other Qur'anic passages there are other meanings of the word. Thus the word can mean constructing or coining something such as coining mathal or similitude (14:24, 16:75-76, 30:28, 36:27 etc). The word is also used to separate two things. In 20:77 it is used of the splitting of the sea to make a way for the children of Israel to escape and in 57:13 it is used of making a wall to separate the two groups of people in the hereafter. Leaving, withdrawing or taking away is the meaning in 43:5. In 13:17 the word is used of separating truth and falsehood. The word can also mean campaigning or traveling in the land, e.g., for the purpose of trade (2:273, 73:20)."
So 4:34 may or may not mean "beat your wives (lightly)". Also, there's a lot of Hadith verses about Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) decrying wife beating. But there's also some where he (SAWS) said "don't be harsh when beating", and it shouldn't be a 'beating' in the first place.

This other article says that the conventional translation is correct:
https://versebyversequranstudycircle.wo ... a-ayah-34/:

Allah’s statement,

وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ
“…beat them…”

means, if advice and ignoring her in the bed do not produce the desired results, you are allowed to discipline the wife, without severe beating.

Muslim recorded that Jabir said that during the Farewell Hajj, the Prophet sallallahu aalyhi wa sallam said;

وَاتَّقُوا اللهَ فِي النِّسَاءِ، فَإِنَّهُنَّ عِنْدَكُمْ عَوَانٍ، وَلَكُمْ عَلَيْهِنَّ أَنْ لَا يُوطِئْنَ فُرُشَكُمْ أَحَدًا تَكْرَهُونَهُ،فَإِنْ فَعَلْنَ ذَلِكَ فَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ ضَرْبًا غَيْرَ مُبَرِحٍ، وَلَهُنَّ عَلَيْكُمْ رِزْقُهُنَّ وَكِسْوَتُهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوف
“Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them that they do not allow any person whom you dislike to step on your mat. However, if they do that, you are allowed to discipline them lightly. They have a right on you that you provide them with their provision and clothes, in a reasonable manner.”

Ibn Abbas and several others said that the Ayah refers to a beating that is not violent. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that it means, a beating that is not severe.

Btw, this is the ayat in question: http://legacy.quran.com/4/34

-snip-

I think it is perfectly sensible to translate 'dharb' in the sense of separation, rather than beating. The culture of the Arabian peninsula prior to Islam was one in which women were mightily mistreated, and Islam very clearly sought to change that (hence why the consent of a woman to marriage is so important). Condoning beatings - which were a part of the previously mentioned mistreatment - would not fit with the rest of the religion. Separating (I don't mean this in the colloquial sense as a synonym for divorce) oneself from a spouse you are arguing with, however, is a perfectly sensible and non-abusive measure.

Jazakallah Khair.

[The Parkus Empire]

I personally don't think seperation or refusing sex to a spouse to coerce them is a good idea.

This belongs in the IDT, but you wouldn't see it if I quoted it over there, so I'll just reply here.

I wouldn't say its coercion. If a couple are having such a disagreement as to invoke anger, I would say temporary separation is rather healthy. Anger isn't conducive to conflict resolution and separation can let tempers cool.

The best way to cool tempers is complete forgiveness.

[Mujahidah]

This belongs in the IDT, but you wouldn't see it if I quoted it over there, so I'll just reply here.

I wouldn't say its coercion. If a couple are having such a disagreement as to invoke anger, I would say temporary separation is rather healthy. Anger isn't conducive to conflict resolution and separation can let tempers cool.

The best way to cool tempers is complete forgiveness.

Sadly people who are angry aren't thinking quite clearly....

[The Parkus Empire]

The best way to cool tempers is complete forgiveness.

Sadly people who are angry aren't thinking quite clearly....

No, but I don't think (coming from my religious perspective) it's right to kick a spouse out in anger. I would say it is sin, because God forgives us for much, and we are in turn called to forgive. If you are praying several times a day and know it is wrong to pray without forgiving all done against you first, then how would you pray?

[Mujahidah]

Sadly people who are angry aren't thinking quite clearly....

No, but I don't think (coming from my religious perspective) it's right to kick a spouse out in anger. I would say it is sin, because God forgives us for much, and we are in turn called to forgive. If you are praying several times a day and know it is wrong to pray without forgiving all done against you first, then how would you pray?

Thats not what I meant by separation, exactly.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem. ... 4&verse=34:

This does not mean that a man should resort to these three measures all at once, but that they may be employed if a wife adopts an attitude of obstinate defiance. So far as the actual application of these measures is concerned, there should, naturally, be some correspondence between the fault and the punishment that is administered. Moreover, it is obvious that wherever a light touch can prove effective.one should not resort to sterner measures. Whenever the Prophet (peace be on him) permitted a man to administer corporal punishment to his wife, he did so with reluctance, and continued to express his distaste for it. And even in cases where it is necessary, the Prophet (peace be on him) directed men not to hit across the face, nor to beat severely nor to use anything that might leave marks on the body. (See Ibn Majah, 'Nikah', 3 - Ed.)

[The South Falls]

This thread is most likely filled with this type of preachiness, but people say that "all x are y" when they're angry. This manifests into all people who practice Islam are:
1. Terrorists
2. Bombmakers
3. Illegal Immigrants
4. People who should be banned.
They are people too. There are more white people that kill others in hate crimes, than Muslims killing people in acts of terrorism. The few incidents, and the number killed in those few, make Muslims seem demonic, so whites get on their case. blaming them for this nation's problems.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

This thread is most likely filled with this type of preachiness, but people say that "all x are y" when they're angry. This manifests into all people who practice Islam are:
1. Terrorists
2. Bombmakers
3. Illegal Immigrants
4. People who should be banned.
They are people too. There are more white people that kill others in hate crimes, than Muslims killing people in acts of terrorism. The few incidents, and the number killed in those few, make Muslims seem demonic, so whites get on their case. blaming them for this nation's problems.

Some people say this because they actually truly do believe it.

[The Parkus Empire]

No, but I don't think (coming from my religious perspective) it's right to kick a spouse out in anger. I would say it is sin, because God forgives us for much, and we are in turn called to forgive. If you are praying several times a day and know it is wrong to pray without forgiving all done against you first, then how would you pray?

Thats not what I meant by separation, exactly.

I would say even refusing to talk to her is sin

[The South Falls]

This thread is most likely filled with this type of preachiness, but people say that "all x are y" when they're angry. This manifests into all people who practice Islam are:
1. Terrorists
2. Bombmakers
3. Illegal Immigrants
4. People who should be banned.
They are people too. There are more white people that kill others in hate crimes, than Muslims killing people in acts of terrorism. The few incidents, and the number killed in those few, make Muslims seem demonic, so whites get on their case. blaming them for this nation's problems.

Some people say this because they actually truly do believe it.

People believe it because they often live in a small-town echo chamber, where everyone believes the same thing. If the waves never get blocked, then they'll ring on forever.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Some people say this because they actually truly do believe it.

People believe it because they often live in a small-town echo chamber, where everyone believes the same thing. If the waves never get blocked, then they'll ring on forever.

True dat.

[Unit 23]

I'd like to know what "galvanizes" the Islamic belief. As far as I know it's due to the concept that Allah is part of everyone. If I believed this I would probably feel like my actions were validated by a higher order.

Islam did something which I can only describe as "explode" onto the world stage right after Persia took a breather for the first or second time (I forget). I'd like to see someone describe this phenomenon if possible.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I'd like to know what "galvanizes" the Islamic belief. As far as I know it's due to the concept that Allah is part of everyone. If I believed this I would probably feel like my actions were validated by a higher order.

Al-Islam does not teach that Allah (SWT) is part of everyone. Allah is high above what people associate with him (SWT). He is Al-Ahad (The One and Only[one of the 99 names of Allah (SWT)])

[Unit 23]

But that's not true.

The early Islamic teachers reconciled Aritotle's logic by assuming that the One was also the human, that the two are indistinct, being that in order for something to be caused it requires a causer, and that Allah is the cause. Because Allah is the cause, he is therefore also part of humanity, meaning our actions are also the cause of Allah, by distinction of causal ontology. Metaphysically, it's a monistic position. There is one substance, and it is Allah, the one eternal and universal truth, and we are children of Allah.

Am I mistaken?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

But that's not true.

The early Islamic teachers reconciled Aritotle's logic by assuming that the One was also the human, that the two are indistinct, being that in order for something to be caused it requires a causer, and that Allah is the cause. Because Allah is the cause, he is therefore also part of humanity, meaning our actions are also the cause of Allah, by distinction of causal ontology. Metaphysically, it's a monistic position. There is one substance, and it is Allah, the one eternal and universal truth, and we are children of Allah.

Am I mistaken?

Yes.
That is mutalizism (or however you spell it), and they weren't even the earliest Islamic scholars. The earliest Islamic scholars are those who were with the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS). In addition, no where in the Holy Qur'an does it say that Allah (SWT) is part of the creation.

[Unit 23]

The "Will of the Creator", which made the world, wasn't part of Allah?

Where else was he?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

The "Will of the Creator", which made the world, wasn't part of Allah?

Where else was he?

http://legacy.quran.com/search?q=high+above+is+he
Also, what are you talking about? What kind of interpretation of Al-Islam are you talking about?
Allah (SWT) created the world.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Here: https://quran.com

[Painisia]

What do you all think about the Boko Haram?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

What do you all think about the Boko Haram?

Is this a serious question?