Islamic Discussion Thread ٣

[Risastorstein]

We're not forcing you to believe otherwise. That said, are you atheist?

Amen to that. If "God" made me non-believing, it's his choice, you have to accept it because one "true believer" must be more valuable than millions of hypocrites, don't you think?
In answer to your question, well, yes, I'm a sort of atheist. I see myself as a pantheist person.

No. We make our own mistakes and we do our own good actions. There is no use in punishment if free will is not involved.

Why would God create "free will"? To exist through our mind? To be regarded as one of us, as a conscious entity?
Religion don't give us satisfying answers about conciousness, while science or even philosophy do.

You can't change his creation. That's the point. [...] Moreover we got our own hands and heads to solve problems. Sitting in a corner and complaining about problems, which this behavior exactly is, does not help.

I see a contradiction. If I can not change his creation, then I don't have a free will, if not, then free will is possible. If God made me "sit in a corner and complain about problems" why should I change my behavior then?

God did not leave us alone.

Where is he then? In my heart? In my mind? In a cross? In a book? In atoms? In light? Where, tell me? (Answer to this question with precise GPS coordinates, not elusive words, please, he's been declared missing for about 5,000 years, his relatives are very worried)

Except that it these things are said explicitly and not in a fictional novel book.

Prove that the Quran or the Bible is a reliable source then. Take some special quote and tell me how this quote is linked to these subjects.

God gave you a head and hands. Use it.

CORRECTION: Point mutations and natural selection gave me a head and hands.

[Free Rhenish States II]

I've been told that Allah is merciful. He will know how to forgive my rebellious behavior, I have no doubt about it.

We're not forcing you to believe otherwise. That said, are you atheist?

Which things? Virgins in heaven? Flames in hell? Imagine that thanks to scientific improvement, we could be able to live forever, we will never have to fear his "justice".
Moreover, God punishes and rewards his own mistakes and his own achievements! He created us. He is either schizophrenic, suffering from Alzheimer, or very narcissistic.

No. We make our own mistakes and we do our own good actions. There is no use in punishment if free will is not involved.

Right, God left us all alone
It's reassuring that you realize it.
But what you say leads us to another paradox. Even if I have the means to build infrastructures in Africa or eliminate a dictator, do I have the right to change his "perfect" creation?

You can't change his creation. That's the point.
God did not leave us alone. Moreover we got our own hands and heads to solve problems. Sitting in a corner and complaining about problems, which this behavior exactly is, does not help.

That's called the Barnum effect or even the confirmation bias... You don't need to be a genius to understand that if you leave humans all alone for 2 seconds, they will mess things up. If I search a little bit, I can find the same allusions in the Game of Thrones saga but that is no reason for worship G.R.R. Martin. Just let me write something imprecise enough and you will have your signs.

Except that it these things are said explicitly and not in a fictional novel book.

Maybe because as you said earlier, in other words, God left us alone. Then he has no right upon us. In addition, if he was our "daddy", some kind of Divine Social Services would have take us far away from him because of his gross negligence! He left us outside, in the cold, for millions of years, just because Adam and Eve ate a f*cking FRUIT!

God gave you a head and hands. Use it.

Leave the poor kaffir alone, Akhi. He rebelled against God by his own volition. His thinking is childish, his ears do not hear, his eyes do not see, his arguments are a laughable set of views through the prism of Dunya. There's no point in even trying to give dawaah to a person who doesn't believe in God.

[Gondolaulus]

Amen to that. If "God" made me non-believing, it's his choice, you have to accept it because one "true believer" must be more valuable than millions of hypocrites, don't you think?
In answer to your question, well, yes, I'm a sort of atheist. I see myself as a pantheist person.

It's beautiful how you put words in my mouth.

Why would God create "free will"? To exist through our mind? To be regarded as one of us, as a conscious entity?
Religion don't give us satisfying answers about conciousness, while science or even philosophy do.

I don't know why God gave us free will. But the mere fact that we have it proves we have it.

It would be completely meaningless were God, on the one hand, to compel men to do certain things and, on the other, to reward or punish them. It would surely be unjust were the Creator of the world to set us on whatever path He chose, by means of His power and His will, and then to punish us for actions we have committed without any choice on our part.

If the deeds of men are, in reality, the acts of God, all corruption, evil and cruelty must be regarded as His work, whereas His most sacred being is utterly pure of all such corruption and injustice.

If there were no free choice for man, the whole concept of man's religious accountability would be unjust. The oppressive tyrant would deserve no blame and the just would merit no praise, because responsibility has meaning only within the sphere of what is possible and attainable for man.

Man deserves blame or merits praise only when he is able to decide and to act freely; otherwise, there can be no question of blame or of praise.

I see a contradiction. If I can not change his creation, then I don't have a free will, if not, then free will is possible. If God made me "sit in a corner and complain about problems" why should I change my behavior then?

No one says you should, but you can. That's the whole point

Where is he then? In my heart? In my mind? In a cross? In a book? In atoms? In light? Where, tell me? (Answer to this question with precise GPS coordinates, not elusive words, please, he's been declared missing for about 5,000 years, his relatives are very worried)

Ali ibn Ali Talib (sa) made a nice sermon about that

CORRECTION: Point mutations and natural selection gave me a head and hands.

Aaaaah, but where does evolution come from?

Doesn't science say that energy cannot be created nor removed. Now we assume the starting point of evolution - the Big Bang. There had to be an ignition to start the process. But science contradicts himself in here. If energy cannot be created nor destroyed, then how does a constant change it own form on itself?

I simply refute the argument that science solves everything for this very point. There has to be a constant - God.

[Gondolaulus]

We're not forcing you to believe otherwise. That said, are you atheist?


No. We make our own mistakes and we do our own good actions. There is no use in punishment if free will is not involved.


You can't change his creation. That's the point.
God did not leave us alone. Moreover we got our own hands and heads to solve problems. Sitting in a corner and complaining about problems, which this behavior exactly is, does not help.


Except that it these things are said explicitly and not in a fictional novel book.


God gave you a head and hands. Use it.

Leave the poor kaffir alone, Akhi. He rebelled against God by his own volition. His thinking is childish, his ears do not hear, his eyes do not see, his arguments are a laughable set of views through the prism of Dunya. There's no point in even trying to give dawaah to a person who doesn't believe in God.

I don't do Dawaah, I let him think.

[Free Rhenish States II]

Leave the poor kaffir alone, Akhi. He rebelled against God by his own volition. His thinking is childish, his ears do not hear, his eyes do not see, his arguments are a laughable set of views through the prism of Dunya. There's no point in even trying to give dawaah to a person who doesn't believe in God.

I don't do Dawaah, I let him think.

Even if he will think and understand it, he won't accept the truth. And you wanna know why? Because people prefer lies. The truth makes life harder.
Anyways, suit yourself. Just telling you it's a waste of time.

[Mahdistan]

How can you know he does not follow the Sunnah? Being the practices of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him), this can only be known through authentic Hadith. The Hadith were not written by prophets, but ordinary men, often with scholarly knowledge. They may have been smart, but they had their own opinions, viewpoints, and judgement- I don't suppose you'd entrust a modern college student or professor to correctly record every saying and habit of a prophet, would you? Now, I do not claim this disproves all Hadith written today, but there is plenty of validity in questioning them.

I do not agree with the practices of the Ahmadiyya, but nonetheless, they are a people who believe this was what the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) wanted; intention has more purpose than practice. They are not rejectors of the Quran, even if their view on certain points it contains are unorthodox and unusual, in my eyes- and thus they should not reasonably reject any banner the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) would have intended us to use.

He said it himself, or have you not been following the previous thread? The Hadiths were not written by God and the prophets, but they passed a vigorous test as only one in 1000 hadiths got approved to begin with. They are much more credible than the Bible, for example. We are able to find out what's authentic and sound easily, thus I have no doubt in the hadiths. The importance of the Sunnah and the groundlessness of those who claim they are false can be described by just one question: How did you learn to pray?
:-))

Actually, I wasn't following the previous thread, as I was away from the internet and going through a difficult time. Nonetheless, I disagree with total rejection of Hadith (though at one point, I had not), but skepticism in the case of Hadith is reasonable. If the intelligence of even a million genius men was what determined what was right and wrong in religion, then the atheists would be the ones who'd be right. Unfortunately, there are simply no tests vigorous enough to prove every Hadith that is recorded in any collection is absolutely true, so we must rely on our faith and our cores- God and the Quran, to discern what is true and false. I am of the view that Imams have special guidance and knowledge to help us in this, but I understand it takes a certain leap of faith to come to that same conclusion, and do not blame others for not doing the same.

[United Territories and States]

We're not forcing you to believe otherwise. That said, are you atheist?


No. We make our own mistakes and we do our own good actions. There is no use in punishment if free will is not involved.


You can't change his creation. That's the point.
God did not leave us alone. Moreover we got our own hands and heads to solve problems. Sitting in a corner and complaining about problems, which this behavior exactly is, does not help.


Except that it these things are said explicitly and not in a fictional novel book.


God gave you a head and hands. Use it.

Leave the poor kaffir alone, Akhi. He rebelled against God by his own volition. His thinking is childish, his ears do not hear, his eyes do not see, his arguments are a laughable set of views through the prism of Dunya. There's no point in even trying to give dawaah to a person who doesn't believe in God.

Now you're just shutting his argument just because he is a nonbeliever.

[Mahdistan]

We're not forcing you to believe otherwise. That said, are you atheist?


No. We make our own mistakes and we do our own good actions. There is no use in punishment if free will is not involved.


You can't change his creation. That's the point.
God did not leave us alone. Moreover we got our own hands and heads to solve problems. Sitting in a corner and complaining about problems, which this behavior exactly is, does not help.


Except that it these things are said explicitly and not in a fictional novel book.


God gave you a head and hands. Use it.

Leave the poor kaffir alone, Akhi. He rebelled against God by his own volition. His thinking is childish, his ears do not hear, his eyes do not see, his arguments are a laughable set of views through the prism of Dunya. There's no point in even trying to give dawaah to a person who doesn't believe in God.

Unfortunately, you are right. I remember holding to views just like their's many years ago, and know that nothing would have changed my mind then. Inshallah, the answers will be made clear to them in their life.

[Mahdistan]

Leave the poor kaffir alone, Akhi. He rebelled against God by his own volition. His thinking is childish, his ears do not hear, his eyes do not see, his arguments are a laughable set of views through the prism of Dunya. There's no point in even trying to give dawaah to a person who doesn't believe in God.

Now your just shutting his argument just because he is a nonbeliever.

I don't recall if you'd been a common contributor in the older threads, but if so, you'd know these people are quite common. They've all followed the same pattern; make blatant insults on Muslims, argue their points by being just reasonable enough to convince some, but still ignoring the points being thrown at them, and then leaving when they get backed into a corner. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are the same people- the way they write and argue is near identical, in many cases.

[United Territories and States]

Now your just shutting his argument just because he is a nonbeliever.

I don't recall if you'd been a common contributor in the older threads, but if so, you'd know these people are quite common. They've all followed the same pattern; make blatant insults on Muslims, argue their points by being just reasonable enough to convince some, but still ignoring the points being thrown at them, and then leaving when they get backed into a corner. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are the same people- the way they write and argue is near identical, in many cases.

Yeah, I actually have seen people like him in the prev threads, you are kinda right about that happening

[Risastorstein]

I don't know why God gave us free will. But the mere fact that we have it proves we have it.

Do we really have free will? I mean, I can choose and take decisions (at least, I have the illusion to) but I can't prove it to you and you can't give me a sufficient evidence to show that you have a free will neither.

It would be completely meaningless were God, on the one hand, to compel men to do certain things and, on the other, to reward or punish them. It would surely be unjust were the Creator of the world to set us on whatever path He chose, by means of His power and His will, and then to punish us for actions we have committed without any choice on our part. [...] If there were no free choice for man, the whole concept of man's religious accountability would be unjust. The oppressive tyrant would deserve no blame and the just would merit no praise, because responsibility has meaning only within the sphere of what is possible and attainable for man.

Seems legit...

If the deeds of men are, in reality, the acts of God, all corruption, evil and cruelty must be regarded as His work, whereas His most sacred being is utterly pure of all such corruption and injustice. [...]
Man deserves blame or merits praise only when he is able to decide and to act freely; otherwise, there can be no question of blame or of praise.

It's the point where I get lost. God created us, right? He created the whole universe too, didn't he? He can predict the future, can't he? He can see everything? Then he should have predicted our behavior, our vices, our violence, our corruption...
If it was the case, he would have known that we are fallible, without creating the Humanity.

No one says you should, but you can. That's the whole point

"No one says you should" Long passages of the Quran and Bible are dedicated to the reasons why I should convert to islam or christianism and how I should behave. The other parts are the punishments I will endure if I continue to be a "kaffir". As a reminder, Jews, Christians and Muslims waged wars in order to impose their faiths. But that's not what I want to talk about...
You mean that I can make my choices, that I can shape the universe on my own, thanks to my deeds?

Ali ibn Ali Talib (sa) made a nice sermon about that

"But hearts perceive him through the realities of authentic belief" "He cannot being perceived by the senses"
"He is manifest but not physically"
How can I know his existence then? I only have my senses to judge if something is real or not. It's easy to say "there's something in an upper world" without giving any evidences. I need something more.

"He is described by indications"
Which ones?

"He acts"
In order to act, you need to have a goal, and to have a goal, you need a conscious. So God must be conscious, but many facts said before make me doubt it...

"He was before all things" "His existence precedes time itself"
Who created him then?

Doesn't science say that energy cannot be created nor removed. Now we assume the starting point of evolution - the Big Bang. There had to be an ignition to start the process. But science contradicts himself in here. If energy cannot be created nor destroyed, then how does a constant change it own form on itself?
There has to be a constant - God.

Yes, the cause of the Big Bang is unknown. But is it a reason to say that it is a miracle? For example, I have a lamp in my livingroom, this lamp move but there is no wind. A friend of mine will argue it's a phantom. On the contrary, I will seek other reasons to explain this movement: heat, mechanics of fluids, electromagnetism, gravity... It's the same problem here. We have no strong evidence to verify or invalidate the role of God in this process.

That's called the Barnum effect or even the confirmation bias... You don't need to be a genius to understand that if you leave humans all alone for 2 seconds, they will mess things up. If I search a little bit, I can find the same allusions in the Game of Thrones saga but that is no reason for worship G.R.R. Martin. Just let me write something imprecise enough and you will have your signs.

Except that it these things are said explicitly and not in a fictional novel book.

Don't forget to find those passages

[Risastorstein]

Leave the poor kaffir alone, Akhi. He rebelled against God by his own volition. His thinking is childish, his ears do not hear, his eyes do not see, his arguments are a laughable set of views through the prism of Dunya. There's no point in even trying to give dawaah to a person who doesn't believe in God.

Remember when Muhammad was forced to leave Mecca. I'm sure they laughed at him as you laugh at me.

Even if he will think and understand it, he won't accept the truth. And you wanna know why? Because people prefer lies. The truth makes life harder.
Anyways, suit yourself. Just telling you it's a waste of time.

This can apply to you.

[Mahdistan]

Even if he will think and understand it, he won't accept the truth. And you wanna know why? Because people prefer lies. The truth makes life harder.
Anyways, suit yourself. Just telling you it's a waste of time.

This can apply to you.

There was a time in my life where I didn't pray, I didn't think about God or consider my obligations. I had numerous friends, every day felt like a party, and people liked me, because I was 'a cool guy to hang out with'. I was also addicted to meth, selling drugs, and buddying up with major members of cartels and mobs. I was going to die in that lifestyle, and I was hurting others- and I was content with that.

My family didn't come to help me. My old friends didn't even know where I was, or if I was even still alive, and my new friends had been living that lifestyle for many years, and wanted to continue to do so. I broke away for one reason only; because I knew it was wrong, and I knew better than to be doing those things. I cleaned myself up with no rehab, kept my job, and suffered through indescribable pain to maintain myself and make myself better again. I could have simply stayed living as I was, and died in pleasure, but I didn't. So yes, the truth is a lot harder to live in than the lies.

[Alsheb]

He said it himself, or have you not been following the previous thread? The Hadiths were not written by God and the prophets, but they passed a vigorous test as only one in 1000 hadiths got approved to begin with. They are much more credible than the Bible, for example. We are able to find out what's authentic and sound easily, thus I have no doubt in the hadiths. The importance of the Sunnah and the groundlessness of those who claim they are false can be described by just one question: How did you learn to pray?
:-))

Actually, I wasn't following the previous thread, as I was away from the internet and going through a difficult time. Nonetheless, I disagree with total rejection of Hadith (though at one point, I had not), but skepticism in the case of Hadith is reasonable. If the intelligence of even a million genius men was what determined what was right and wrong in religion, then the atheists would be the ones who'd be right. Unfortunately, there are simply no tests vigorous enough to prove every Hadith that is recorded in any collection is absolutely true, so we must rely on our faith and our cores- God and the Quran, to discern what is true and false. I am of the view that Imams have special guidance and knowledge to help us in this, but I understand it takes a certain leap of faith to come to that same conclusion, and do not blame others for not doing the same.

Exactly. I do not hold that all Hadith are necessarily false, but there are several ones that conflict with the message of Qur'an in such blatant and obvious ways that it is impossible to follow both the Qur'anic obligations and those hadith at the same time.

[Alsheb]

Examples?

Are you going to say that Muslims have always been cosmopolitan, and a clean Caliphate and Sharia has never existed?

Examples of what? Islamic socialists?

Also, I don't recall ever saying anything about "cosmopalitanism", nor did I ever claim Muslims had to adhere to this. And indeed, a clean Caliphate has unfortunately been an extremely rare thing in Islamic history. Aside from the rule of the Prophet himself and the Rashidun Caliphate (although even some of the Rashidun were prone to severe errors), there has never been a fully "clean" Caliphate, no.
Starting with the corruption of the Ummayad and the institution of absolute monarchy that went counter to any Islamic principle at the time, the Caliphate has been tainted severely.

[Free Rhenish States II]

Leave the poor kaffir alone, Akhi. He rebelled against God by his own volition. His thinking is childish, his ears do not hear, his eyes do not see, his arguments are a laughable set of views through the prism of Dunya. There's no point in even trying to give dawaah to a person who doesn't believe in God.

Now you're just shutting his argument just because he is a nonbeliever.

Open your eyes. Even if I did, shut him just because he is a kaffir, that wouldn't make me be in the wrong and would you like to know why? Because by converting and accept Islam you submit yourself to God and free yourself from opinions of the people. Nonetheless, I didn't do that, I showed you clearly why people like him should be ignored. He doesn't have any arguments, the observations of this world à la philosophy is not a valid argument for a Muslim.

He said it himself, or have you not been following the previous thread? The Hadiths were not written by God and the prophets, but they passed a vigorous test as only one in 1000 hadiths got approved to begin with. They are much more credible than the Bible, for example. We are able to find out what's authentic and sound easily, thus I have no doubt in the hadiths. The importance of the Sunnah and the groundlessness of those who claim they are false can be described by just one question: How did you learn to pray?
:-))

Actually, I wasn't following the previous thread, as I was away from the internet and going through a difficult time. Nonetheless, I disagree with total rejection of Hadith (though at one point, I had not), but skepticism in the case of Hadith is reasonable. If the intelligence of even a million genius men was what determined what was right and wrong in religion, then the atheists would be the ones who'd be right. Unfortunately, there are simply no tests vigorous enough to prove every Hadith that is recorded in any collection is absolutely true, so we must rely on our faith and our cores- God and the Quran, to discern what is true and false. I am of the view that Imams have special guidance and knowledge to help us in this, but I understand it takes a certain leap of faith to come to that same conclusion, and do not blame others for not doing the same.

How can you say that when the Sunnah gave us the prayer, explained some of the complicated quranic verses, Hajj, Fikh, Ulum Quran and so much more? It is unseparable from the Quran, nor does it contradict it (when sahih), instead, it would hurt Islam if ignored. Sunnah is the iron body of Islam, and if you rob a building of its body, would you be surprised if it fell like a house of cards?
The Quranists should think about these verses:
4:59
O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

53:1-4
By the star when it descends, your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed.
How are we supposed to obey the Messenger without the Sunnah? Nohow. Allah made sure his words were authentically conveyed to us, and they are.

This can apply to you.

There was a time in my life where I didn't pray, I didn't think about God or consider my obligations. I had numerous friends, every day felt like a party, and people liked me, because I was 'a cool guy to hang out with'. I was also addicted to meth, selling drugs, and buddying up with major members of cartels and mobs. I was going to die in that lifestyle, and I was hurting others- and I was content with that.

My family didn't come to help me. My old friends didn't even know where I was, or if I was even still alive, and my new friends had been living that lifestyle for many years, and wanted to continue to do so. I broke away for one reason only; because I knew it was wrong, and I knew better than to be doing those things. I cleaned myself up with no rehab, kept my job, and suffered through indescribable pain to maintain myself and make myself better again. I could have simply stayed living as I was, and died in pleasure, but I didn't. So yes, the truth is a lot harder to live in than the lies.

Alhamdulillah, brother. I can relate. Had I had left Islam anytime now, my life would have been much easier. I would indulge in sex because "I'm hot'', and because I wouldn't give a damn about marrying the girl I love, (and she would be content with my decision) my happiness would just be complete. Every day would be a pleasure for me, because I would not think about pleasing Allah instead. But I always believed in God even while I was irreligious for the most of my life, I simply know what's right and I don't want to be among the losers in the day of judgment. Verily, hedonism is the path of the wrongdoers.

[Free Rhenish States II]

Examples?

Are you going to say that Muslims have always been cosmopolitan, and a clean Caliphate and Sharia has never existed?

Examples of what? Islamic socialists?

Also, I don't recall ever saying anything about "cosmopalitanism", nor did I ever claim Muslims had to adhere to this. And indeed, a clean Caliphate has unfortunately been an extremely rare thing in Islamic history. Aside from the rule of the Prophet himself and the Rashidun Caliphate (although even some of the Rashidun were prone to severe errors), there has never been a fully "clean" Caliphate, no.
Starting with the corruption of the Ummayad and the institution of absolute monarchy that went counter to any Islamic principle at the time, the Caliphate has been tainted severely.

Name respected Islamic sheikhs today that are followers of Communism, Democracy, Fascism or whatnot.
You contradict yourself by saying "extremely rare" and "there has never been a fully clean Caliphate", if it was rare, it existed. Or should we forget the Rashidun?

"Severe errors"?

[Gondolaulus]

Do we really have free will? I mean, I can choose and take decisions (at least, I have the illusion to) but I can't prove it to you and you can't give me a sufficient evidence to show that you have a free will neither.

Neither can you prove that there is absolute determinism.

It's a philosophical doctrine wherein believe and deduction plays a central role. Science, and hence proof, is largely out of place here.

It's the point where I get lost. God created us, right? He created the whole universe too, didn't he? He can predict the future, can't he? He can see everything? Then he should have predicted our behavior, our vices, our violence, our corruption...
If it was the case, he would have known that we are fallible, without creating the Humanity.

According to Islamic thought we are fallible when we choose to not follow God's law, hence we are fallible in our own free will. We are free to obey God's law and be good, or disavow it with said results.

You mean that I can make my choices, that I can shape the universe on my own, thanks to my deeds?

Yes, the universe and the world is under influence by everyone's actions.

How can I know his existence then? I only have my senses to judge if something is real or not. It's easy to say "there's something in an upper world" without giving any evidences. I need something more.

God is beyond the senses. Evidence strikes the senses, not that above.

Who created him then?

No one did, he is Ever-existent.

Yes, the cause of the Big Bang is unknown. But is it a reason to say that it is a miracle? For example, I have a lamp in my livingroom, this lamp move but there is no wind. A friend of mine will argue it's a phantom. On the contrary, I will seek other reasons to explain this movement: heat, mechanics of fluids, electromagnetism, gravity... It's the same problem here. We have no strong evidence to verify or invalidate the role of God in this process.

Except that that example is faulty in the sense that it is not in a comparable situation. When there is a singularity - a constant singularity - which suddenly explodes than there has to be something else that intervenes with it and hence the idea of constant singularity before the Big Bang is wrong.

We have no scientific proof for God, neither against Him, because God is above the human senses.

[Alsheb]

Examples of what? Islamic socialists?

Also, I don't recall ever saying anything about "cosmopalitanism", nor did I ever claim Muslims had to adhere to this. And indeed, a clean Caliphate has unfortunately been an extremely rare thing in Islamic history. Aside from the rule of the Prophet himself and the Rashidun Caliphate (although even some of the Rashidun were prone to severe errors), there has never been a fully "clean" Caliphate, no.
Starting with the corruption of the Ummayad and the institution of absolute monarchy that went counter to any Islamic principle at the time, the Caliphate has been tainted severely.

Name respected Islamic sheikhs today that are followers of Communism, Democracy, Fascism or whatnot.
You contradict yourself by saying "extremely rare" and "there has never been a fully clean Caliphate", if it was rare, it existed. Or should we forget the Rashidun?

"Severe errors"?

Aside from semantics, you seem to have little actual argumentation. Even your beef with me being a Socialist seems to be more of a problem with use of the word than the idea itself. But anyway.

Extremely rare expresses in this case that there has never been a fully clean Caliphate since the end of the Rashidun one. And even in the Rashidun Caliphate I would not consider Uthman to be a fully clean Caliph, leaving us with only Abu Bakr, Umar and Ali. If you want to know whom I consider the perfect Caliph, that would be the Prophet (SAWS) himself, even though he did not bear that title.
No contradiction, just saying that it is extremely rare since there have only been a handful of "fully clean" Caliphs.

As for sheikhs, that is a rather empty claim to make seeing as how sheikh is an honourary title that can be disputed. Osama Bin Laden carried the title sheikh, yet no sane Muslim ever followed him or his ideals. And the "respected" part is even more hollow, since you are unlikely to respect the sheikhs I respect and vice versa. That's free will for you.

Nevertheless, if you want names of great Muslim thinkers who have supported Socialism from an Islamic perspective, I can give you a few.
Oemar Said Tjokroaminoto, Ibrahim Shoukry, Ali Shariati, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, Yasser Arafat, Abdul Hamid Khan Bhashani, Choudhry Rahmat Ali,... to name a few.

It is interesting how you seem to believe being Muslim and Socialist is some sort of strange anomaly, despite the fact that it was well established in much of the Islamic world before extremist ideas such as wahhabism became widespread. It is a strange irony that those who accuse others of bid'ah or apostasy, like the wahhabis, are the major perpetrators of bid'ah in the Islamic world today.

[Gondolaulus]

I read about Ali Shariati. Based man. Guess he would be dissapointed with the current Iran.

[Alsheb]

I read about Ali Shariati. Based man. Guess he would be dissapointed with the current Iran.

Actually, I dare say Iran is on the way back up in general. It was worse under Khomeini himself than it is now. In that regard I agree with Reza Aslan's analysis of present-day Iran.

[Itoshiki]

I read about Ali Shariati. Based man. Guess he would be dissapointed with the current Iran.

Actually, I dare say Iran is on the way back up in general. It was worse under Khomeini himself than it is now. In that regard I agree with Reza Aslan's analysis of present-day Iran.

Thanks primarily to economic liberalization and political reforms promoted by clerical oligarchs, namely the likes of Rafsanjani and his proteges Khatami and Rouhani, that runs in counter to the original revolutionary "alms' economy". A move to the good, but I doubt the one that Shariati, a socialist, espoused.

[Free Rhenish States II]

Name respected Islamic sheikhs today that are followers of Communism, Democracy, Fascism or whatnot.
You contradict yourself by saying "extremely rare" and "there has never been a fully clean Caliphate", if it was rare, it existed. Or should we forget the Rashidun?

"Severe errors"?

Aside from semantics, you seem to have little actual argumentation. Even your beef with me being a Socialist seems to be more of a problem with use of the word than the idea itself. But anyway.

Extremely rare expresses in this case that there has never been a fully clean Caliphate since the end of the Rashidun one. And even in the Rashidun Caliphate I would not consider Uthman to be a fully clean Caliph, leaving us with only Abu Bakr, Umar and Ali. If you want to know whom I consider the perfect Caliph, that would be the Prophet (SAWS) himself, even though he did not bear that title.
No contradiction, just saying that it is extremely rare since there have only been a handful of "fully clean" Caliphs.

As for sheikhs, that is a rather empty claim to make seeing as how sheikh is an honourary title that can be disputed. Osama Bin Laden carried the title sheikh, yet no sane Muslim ever followed him or his ideals. And the "respected" part is even more hollow, since you are unlikely to respect the sheikhs I respect and vice versa. That's free will for you.

Nevertheless, if you want names of great Muslim thinkers who have supported Socialism from an Islamic perspective, I can give you a few.
Oemar Said Tjokroaminoto, Ibrahim Shoukry, Ali Shariati, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, Yasser Arafat, Abdul Hamid Khan Bhashani, Choudhry Rahmat Ali,... to name a few.

It is interesting how you seem to believe being Muslim and Socialist is some sort of strange anomaly, despite the fact that it was well established in much of the Islamic world before extremist ideas such as wahhabism became widespread. It is a strange irony that those who accuse others of bid'ah or apostasy, like the wahhabis, are the major perpetrators of bid'ah in the Islamic world today.

Maybe if you were any serious debatter, I would have debatted seriously with you, and yet I only get amazed by your self-reinforcing delusion, to the point that I actually get discouraged from putting any effort in arguments with you.

Seeing as you dismiss our scholars in favor of some "great" socialist thinkers pretty much does the same. Osama Bin Laden built roads in Sudan, and had a lot of sane Muslims by his side, funnily enough. He did something for the Allah instead of trying to build socialism on Earth. That argument would only work against someone who has little to no knowledge of him. Clearly, Osama Bin Laden had more to do with Islam than any commie ever did.

So you gave me a list of some "great thinkers" instead of sheikhs to back up your point of socialism being legit in Islam? Frankly, I expected nothing else. There's nothing to comment. If these "great Muslim thinkers" didn't work for the Sharia law and the laws of Allah and instead searched for ways in non-muslim philosophies, this is neither legit nor do their beliefs legitimize socialism/communism in Islam.

You know, when we'll build the Caliphate and meet Isa and Mahdi, you will be among the jamaats that will build socialism. Then we'll see who's rght.

[Gondolaulus]

Actually, I dare say Iran is on the way back up in general. It was worse under Khomeini himself than it is now. In that regard I agree with Reza Aslan's analysis of present-day Iran.

Thanks primarily to economic liberalization and political reforms promoted by clerical oligarchs, namely the likes of Rafsanjani and his proteges Khatami and Rouhani, that runs in counter to the original revolutionary "alms' economy". A move to the good, but I doubt the one that Shariati, a socialist, espoused.

Reinstall the Shah now :^)

Tbh the Shah wasn't preferable too. But better than what Iran is right now.

[Free Rhenish States II]

https://www.facebook.com/DCStatesman/videos/vb.511928619002683/608376469357897/?type=2&theater
Hope this despicable, loathsome, fat subhuman gets thrown off the roof someday.