[Europe] Lorry rams into Berlin market

[Itoshiki]

What a rubbish, vague, non-indicative standard. If asked (without pressure or need to lie, obviously), I would say that my personal values take precedence over the nation's values.

I do like my rubbish, vague, non-indicative standard.

This is only somewhat less ineffective than a blanket ban: instead of targeting criminals and radicals, you're proposing a thoughtcriminal regulation that I doubt plenty of non-Muslims (including myself) will manage to pass if enforced to them. While it's reasonable to think that a nation would rationally seek to proselytize its common values and homogenize the populace's thinking, there are also plenty other considerations that would render such laws excessive and inefficient. Spreading your net wider than necessary is counter-productive.

[Aelex]

I think that sounds like an unfair accusation to make considering that we don't know much about Islam - suggesting from your signature, forgive me for assuming that neither do you.

Ho, I know too much about Islam for this accusation to be anything but "fair" or for me to pretend that there is no problem with it.

[Mefpan]

I do like my rubbish, vague, non-indicative standard.

This is only somewhat less ineffective than a blanket ban: instead of targeting criminals and radicals, you're proposing a thoughtcriminal regulation that I doubt plenty of non-Muslims (including myself) will manage to pass if enforced to them. While it's reasonable to think that a nation would rationally seek to proselytize its common values and homogenize the populace's thinking, there are also plenty other considerations that would render such laws excessive and inefficient. Spreading your net wider than necessary is counter-productive.

Whatever your personal views, if they came into conflict with secular law as it exists in your average western liberal democracy, I seriously doubt you'd go and willingly become a criminal just to cling to that code of conduct.

[Itoshiki]

This is only somewhat less ineffective than a blanket ban: instead of targeting criminals and radicals, you're proposing a thoughtcriminal regulation that I doubt plenty of non-Muslims (including myself) will manage to pass if enforced to them. While it's reasonable to think that a nation would rationally seek to proselytize its common values and homogenize the populace's thinking, there are also plenty other considerations that would render such laws excessive and inefficient. Spreading your net wider than necessary is counter-productive.

Whatever your personal views, if they came into conflict with secular law as it exists in your average western liberal democracy, I seriously doubt you'd go and willingly become a criminal just to cling to that code of conduct.

Precisely.

[Pasong Tirad]

I think that sounds like an unfair accusation to make considering that we don't know much about Islam - suggesting from your signature, forgive me for assuming that neither do you.

Ho, I know too much about Islam for this accusation to be anything but "fair" or for me to pretend that there is no problem with it.

Yeah I don't think I can take your word for it when you think one religious belief is better than another.

[Aelex]

Yeah I don't think I can take your word for it when you think one religious belief is better than another.

I don't happen to believe in this fumisterie known as "relativism" so I can indeed affirm that one religious or cultural belief can indeed be better than another. :^)

[Zottistan]

Depends. Do they see themselves as German before Muslim or as Muslim before German? For me that'd be an important factor in deciding it, but it's not like anyone would say they're Muslim first and German second if the question decided whether or not we would kick them the fuck out.

What a rubbish, vague, non-indicative standard. If asked (without pressure or need to lie, obviously), I would say that my personal values take precedence over the nation's values.

You can have whatever values you want. What's relevant is whether you consider your values an excuse to break the law, i.e. by driving a truck into a crown of civilians.

[Zottistan]

Ho, I know too much about Islam for this accusation to be anything but "fair" or for me to pretend that there is no problem with it.

Yeah I don't think I can take your word for it when you think one religious belief is better than another.

Genital mutilation of children.

Just throwing that out there.

[Itoshiki]

Ho, I know too much about Islam for this accusation to be anything but "fair" or for me to pretend that there is no problem with it.

Yeah I don't think I can take your word for it when you think one religious belief is better than another.

Christianity in its current form is indeed more preferable than Islam for a conducive Western civilization if only because they have acquainted for a long time. This is no longer the era of Prince-Bishoprics, the Pope has yielded his rule over the Westphalian princes and kings, smashed and castrated, though no doubt its values remain among many people but in different form: in ethnocentric value systems that European ethnostates adhere. The Papacy is now just another corrupt old corporation instead of a figure of authority. Hence why you see Christians sneer upon the idea of "humanitarianism" even when such concept was historically very Christian, because there's no such thing in European values. EU pretends to do so, but in reality most of members remain, begrudgingly, because of a sense of greater-tribalist unity.

[Itoshiki]

What a rubbish, vague, non-indicative standard. If asked (without pressure or need to lie, obviously), I would say that my personal values take precedence over the nation's values.

You can have whatever values you want. What's relevant is whether you consider your values an excuse to break the law, i.e. by driving a truck into a crown of civilians.

Precisely. Most Muslims, evidently, do not mow down a crowd with trucks.

[Zottistan]

You can have whatever values you want. What's relevant is whether you consider your values an excuse to break the law, i.e. by driving a truck into a crown of civilians.

Precisely. Most Muslims, evidently, do not mow down a crowd with trucks.

If they did we'd have much fewer crowds.

[Pasong Tirad]

Yeah I don't think I can take your word for it when you think one religious belief is better than another.

Genital mutilation of children.

Just throwing that out there.

You mean circumcision?

A practice still done throughout most of the world?

A practice that is now more cultural than it is religious in the Philippines?

Yeah I don't think I can take your word for it when you think one religious belief is better than another.

Christianity in its current form is indeed more preferable than Islam for a conducive Western civilization if only because they have acquainted for a long time. This is no longer the era of Prince-Bishoprics, the Pope has yielded his rule over the Westphalian princes and kings, smashed and castrated, though no doubt its values remain among many people but in different form: in ethnocentric value systems that European ethnostates adhere. The Papacy is now just another corrupt old corporation instead of a figure of authority. Hence why you see Christians sneer upon the idea of "humanitarianism" even when such concept was historically very Christian, because there's no such thing in European values. EU pretends to do so, but in reality most of members remain, begrudgingly, because of a sense of greater-tribalist unity.

Do you have a source to back up this claim that the EU is only united because of some "faint, antiquated, tribal idea of unity"?

[Ifreann]

The Breitscheidplatz Christmas market has re-opened, with concrete barriers to prevent a repeat attack. Meanwhile, German authorities are offering a €100,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of Anis Amri, warning that he may be armed and dangerous. He may also be approximately anywhere in Europe at this point, or beyond.

[Zottistan]

Genital mutilation of children.

Just throwing that out there.

You mean circumcision?

A practice still done throughout most of the world?

A practice that is now more cultural than it is religious in the Philippines?

No, I mean this, and although, yes, medically unnecessary circumcision is still child genital mutilation and utterly despicable, I do thing Islam's variant of genital mutilation is a hell of a lot worse.

[Itoshiki]

Precisely. Most Muslims, evidently, do not mow down crowds with trucks.

If they did we'd have much fewer crowds.

Correct.
So uphold the rule of law, cooperate with Muslims who undoubtedly identify the benefit of a lawful society and want to work with it, and concentrate the suppression against the radicals and the criminals who are proven to be a challenge against the law. Halt Saudi funds to mosques, put down radical sermons, etc.

[Zottistan]

Yeah I don't think I can take your word for it when you think one religious belief is better than another.

Christianity in its current form is indeed more preferable than Islam for a conducive Western civilization if only because they have acquainted for a long time. This is no longer the era of Prince-Bishoprics, the Pope has yielded his rule over the Westphalian princes and kings, smashed and castrated, though no doubt its values remain among many people but in different form: in ethnocentric value systems that European ethnostates adhere. The Papacy is now just another corrupt old corporation instead of a figure of authority. Hence why you see Christians sneer upon the idea of "humanitarianism" even when such concept was historically very Christian, because there's no such thing in European values. EU pretends to do so, but in reality most of members remain, begrudgingly, because of a sense of greater-tribalist unity.

Considering that historically a large number of those European "tribes" completely despised eachother, I find this hard to believe.

[Pasong Tirad]

You mean circumcision?

A practice still done throughout most of the world?

A practice that is now more cultural than it is religious in the Philippines?

No, I mean this, and although, yes, medically unnecessary circumcision is still child genital mutilation and utterly despicable, I do thing Islam's variant of genital mutilation is a hell of a lot worse.

This is a barbaric thing to happen although, if I may add, I'd like to quote from your own source where it says:
"although none of the procedures are required within Islam.
"FGM's origins in northeastern Africa are pre-Islamic, but the practice became associated with Islam because of that religion's focus on female chastity and seclusion."
In 2007 the Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research in Cairo ruled that FGM had "no basis in core Islamic law or any of its partial provisions."
"Gerry Mackie has suggested that infibulation began there with the Meroite civilization (c. 800 BCE — c. 350 CE), before the rise of Islam, to increase confidence in paternity"

We can't start nitpicking because chances are, probably every religion in the world has some kind of bad shit attached to their name - Christianity, Islam and others.

[Itoshiki]

Christianity in its current form is indeed more preferable than Islam for a conducive Western civilization if only because they have acquainted for a long time. This is no longer the era of Prince-Bishoprics, the Pope has yielded his rule over the Westphalian princes and kings, smashed and castrated, though no doubt its values remain among many people but in different form: in ethnocentric value systems that European ethnostates adhere. The Papacy is now just another corrupt old corporation instead of a figure of authority. Hence why you see Christians sneer upon the idea of "humanitarianism" even when such concept was historically very Christian, because there's no such thing in European values. EU pretends to do so, but in reality most of members remain, begrudgingly, because of a sense of greater-tribalist unity.

Considering that historically a large number of those European "tribes" completely despised eachother, I find this hard to believe.

And a large dose of humanitarian aid money injected, too.

[Pasong Tirad]

The Breitscheidplatz Christmas market has re-opened, with concrete barriers to prevent a repeat attack. Meanwhile, German authorities are offering a €100,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of Anis Amri, warning that he may be armed and dangerous. He may also be approximately anywhere in Europe at this point, or beyond.

Admirable. Germany soldiers on.

[Zottistan]

No, I mean this, and although, yes, medically unnecessary circumcision is still child genital mutilation and utterly despicable, I do thing Islam's variant of genital mutilation is a hell of a lot worse.

This is a barbaric thing to happen although, if I may add, I'd like to quote from your own source where it says:
"although none of the procedures are required within Islam.
"FGM's origins in northeastern Africa are pre-Islamic, but the practice became associated with Islam because of that religion's focus on female chastity and seclusion."
In 2007 the Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research in Cairo ruled that FGM had "no basis in core Islamic law or any of its partial provisions."
"Gerry Mackie has suggested that infibulation began there with the Meroite civilization (c. 800 BCE — c. 350 CE), before the rise of Islam, to increase confidence in paternity"

The absorption, sustenance and spread of the practice in and through Islamic land rightly gives Islam and Islamic culture a substantial portion of the the blame. Many of the issues with Islam have shaky support if any from Islamic law, because as with most religious doctrine it's intentionally vague and open to interpretation. Islam is not defined by its scripture, but by the actions of its followers.

We can't start nitpicking because chances are, probably every religion in the world has some kind of bad shit attached to their name - Christianity, Islam and others.

Yeah.

The difference is most have grown out of it by now.

[Frank Zipper]

How does this make people feel about CCTV in public places? We in the UK have it pretty much everywhere, I believe Germany is quite averse to it.

[Oultremer]

Italian newspaper
Another in Italian

Apparently Anis Amri was shot and killed by Italian police in Milano.
Cant find any source in English though.

[Vassenor]

Italian newspaper
Another in Italian

Apparently Anis Amri was shot and killed by Italian police in Milano.
Cant find any source in English though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38415287

[Risottia]

Italian newspaper
Another in Italian

Apparently Anis Amri was shot and killed by Italian police in Milano.
Cant find any source in English though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38415287

http://video.repubblica.it/edizione/mil ... 481/263849


Looks like Amri has been killed by the Italian police in Sesto San Giovanni, a municipality bordering Milan.
Which leads me to think that the reason why Italy hasn't seen a major Islamist attack is also because they want to keep a low profile here to cover the logistic bases of their organisations.

Too bad we didn't get him alive. Now we can't interrogate him, and discovering his accomplices becomes way more difficult.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN14C0JP

[HMS Vanguard]

What's that got to do with anything? Both whites and Muslims are around because of conquest and population displacement. The difference is that whites made things better.

To be fair, historically Muslims and Arab expansion did make a lot of things better for a lot of people in North Africa, the Middle East and western Asia.

They're just not doing it right now.

What a lot of rubbish. Before the Muslim conquest those places were universally considered the seat of civilisation, and far more civilised than Northern Europe. Now they are dumps and the people are exporting their failure north.