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[Europe] Lorry rams into Berlin market

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Uxupox
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Postby Uxupox » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:18 am

Itoshiki wrote:
HMS Vanguard wrote:Islam is actually very clear and consistent; it's not Christianity.

No, it isn't. Hence why an entire tradition of interpretations and judgments are built around it. Following "pure, 10/10 exactly as told" Islam is impossible, and you'll find that it's not in the interest of most Muslims to do so, however much they pretend they do. Not that they can fully agree on it anyway.

Getting rid of Islam entirely would also be impossible, I might add, unless one wants to reduce it into European (northern) Christianity today: toothless, tolerant, existing in spite of the civilization.


I have no idea how one can do this really.
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Itoshiki
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Postby Itoshiki » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:26 am

HMS Vanguard wrote:
Itoshiki wrote:No, it isn't. Hence why an entire tradition of interpretations and judgments are built around it. Following "pure, 10/10 exactly as told" Islam is impossible, and you'll find that it's not in the interest of most Muslims to do so, however much they pretend they do. Not that they can fully agree on it anyway.

Maybe but that is equivocation. What school of Islam rejects the legitimacy and desirability of a Caliphate in principle? What school puts secular law of Westphalian states ahead of Shariah in principle? The differences between schools are about points tangential to this discussion, for the most part points only of any interest to Muslims.

And yet many continue to do so anyway. Most "established" major schools were founded prior to counter-itjihad waged by al-Ghazali during the mid-Medieval era, but under them there are the assortment of scholars and plenty those outside of the spectrum. Islam is no Roman Catholicism, it might be more representative to point out the opinion of individuals as opposed to groups.
HMS Vanguard wrote:
Getting rid of Islam entirely would also be impossible, I might add, unless one wants to reduce it into European (northern) Christianity today: toothless, tolerant, existing in spite of the civilization.

I don't think that is true although it may be very expensive. Simply removing Islam from Europe and the USA would be pretty easy.

Itoshiki wrote:As in, expelling people personally identify or registered as Muslims?

It's not like "suitcase or coffin" is as cheap as people would've led to believe. Especially for U.S. Muslims, an already well-established community.
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Itoshiki wrote:You're not really saying much about Yazidi and Christian girls raped by the mujahids, either. I ask you again: do you approve of IS' practice of sex slavery or not?

Yes, I approve.

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Postby Vassenor » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:30 am

Itoshiki wrote:It's not like "suitcase or coffin" is as cheap as people would've led to believe. Especially for U.S. Muslims, an already well-established community.


Plus unless something drastic changed ethnic cleansing like that is still a crime against humanity.
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:30 am

Meanwhile, back at the actual topic of the thread, a manhunt is underway across the Schengen area for "Anis A.", a Tunisian man whose residence permit was found in the cab of the lorry and who is thus suspected to have been the driver.
Anis A is reported to have travelled to Italy in 2012 and then on to Germany in 2015 where he applied for asylum and was granted temporary leave to stay in April of this year.

Ralf Jaeger, the minister of interior of North Rhine-Westphalia, said on Wednesday that the claim for asylum had been rejected in June but the papers necessary for deportation had not been ready.

Tunisia, he said, had denied Anis A was its citizen, so the authorities had had to wait for temporary passport documentation from Tunisia.

"The papers arrived today from Tunisia," Mr Jaeger said.
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Itoshiki
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Postby Itoshiki » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:36 am

Vassenor wrote:
Itoshiki wrote:It's not like "suitcase or coffin" is as cheap as people would've led to believe. Especially for U.S. Muslims, an already well-established community.


Plus unless something drastic changed ethnic cleansing like that is still a crime against humanity.

Of course, but talks about ethics obviously come later if you're talking to people seriously advocating those things. A neo-nazi won't be convinced if you scream to him "but but jews are good people!!1" and swaying back and forth, and he would just delude himself into thinking that he wins the debate.
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Islamic Government wrote:
Itoshiki wrote:You're not really saying much about Yazidi and Christian girls raped by the mujahids, either. I ask you again: do you approve of IS' practice of sex slavery or not?

Yes, I approve.

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HMS Vanguard
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Postby HMS Vanguard » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:42 am

Itoshiki wrote:
HMS Vanguard wrote:Maybe but that is equivocation. What school of Islam rejects the legitimacy and desirability of a Caliphate in principle? What school puts secular law of Westphalian states ahead of Shariah in principle? The differences between schools are about points tangential to this discussion, for the most part points only of any interest to Muslims.

And yet many continue to do so anyway. Most "established" major schools were founded prior to counter-itjihad waged by al-Ghazali during the mid-Medieval era, but under them there are the assortment of scholars and plenty those outside of the spectrum. Islam is no Roman Catholicism, it might be more representative to point out the opinion of individuals as opposed to groups.

I'm fully aware that Islam is congregationalist or even individualist in polity. Answer the question: what major grouping rejects the supremacy of the Caliphate and Shariah in principle? These things are fundamental to Islam.

HMS Vanguard wrote:I don't think that is true although it may be very expensive. Simply removing Islam from Europe and the USA would be pretty easy.

Itoshiki wrote:As in, expelling people personally identify or registered as Muslims?

It's not like "suitcase or coffin" is as cheap as people would've led to believe. Especially for U.S. Muslims, an already well-established community.

I didn't answer your question the first time because it seems like a deliberate attempt to divert the discussion and waste my time. I don't think identifying who is a muslim is remotely hard.
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Itoshiki
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Postby Itoshiki » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:03 am

HMS Vanguard wrote:
Itoshiki wrote:And yet many continue to do so anyway. Most "established" major schools were founded prior to counter-itjihad waged by al-Ghazali during the mid-Medieval era, but under them there are the assortment of scholars and plenty those outside of the spectrum. Islam is no Roman Catholicism, it might be more representative to point out the opinion of individuals as opposed to groups.

I'm fully aware that Islam is congregationalist or even individualist in polity. Answer the question: what major grouping rejects the supremacy of the Caliphate and Shariah in principle? These things are fundamental to Islam.

The wording of the question intentionally makes it pointless and misleading.

There is no major grouping within Islam that rejects the supremacy of the Caliphate and the Shariah in principle. This does not address that there are individual Muslims and perhaps minor groupings who do, more on rejecting the supremacy of the Caliphate, less on the Shariah. This does not address that the Shi'as, who technically do not outright reject the Caliphate, seem content on not pushing modern pan-Islamic Caliphate narrative, and so do plenty of Sunnis. This does not address the definition and practice of Shariah, varying on totalitarian religious laws enforced by morality police to simple guidance of life. This does not address that Caliphal supremacy was practically irrelevant, stripped of real authority for much of its history even most Muslims recognize it. Hell, this does not address that the Ahmadis, a persecuted Muslim group in conservative Muslim countries, have their own Caliph in London, hardly could be described as the pinnacle of radical Islam.
Are they "fundamental"? Probably, but probably not to your definition.

It's not like "suitcase or coffin" is as cheap as people would've led to believe. Especially for U.S. Muslims, an already well-established community.

I didn't answer your question the first time because it seems like a deliberate attempt to divert the discussion and waste my time. I don't think identifying who is a muslim is remotely hard.

How is it a diversion? You criticize my proposal as "establishing wide state surveillance, censorship" etc and then your proposed solution is...to expel all Muslims and forbid them entrance.
Last edited by Itoshiki on Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Islamic Government wrote:
Itoshiki wrote:You're not really saying much about Yazidi and Christian girls raped by the mujahids, either. I ask you again: do you approve of IS' practice of sex slavery or not?

Yes, I approve.

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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:33 am

Mefpan wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:The exact same argument is true of Christianity.

Not really. I'm sick of pretending that Christianity in its current state is just as bad as Islam in its current state.

The power of the church has been curtailed, the Pope is promoting tolerance and peace instead of the killing of heretics and sinners. Crusaderboos are a fucking internet novelty and will die off soon enough, the "worst" that really religious Christians these days do on average is screaming in impotent outrage about how LGBTs shouldn't be allowed to marry, but many would actually be appalled by the idea of actually going to murder them for daring to have a thing for the same sex.

Maybe you could make the case that Christianity in areas like Central Africa is fucking scary. But in the contemporary West, where most of the people posting here live? Fuck, no. When was the last time an Inquisitor kicked down your door for heresy? When was the last time your sister was burned at the stake for witchcraft? When was the last time your brother was put to the sword for daring to lay with another man?

The current Christianity is a declawed tiger, and its adherents far removed from the zeal you find in the Christians of previous centuries, or in the often Islamic migrants that began flooding here in recent years.

"on average"

consider this qualifier you have used.
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Frank Zipper
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Postby Frank Zipper » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:46 am

Anis Amri has been named as the suspect.
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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:52 am

Frank Zipper wrote:Anis Amri has been named as the suspect.

Tunisian man identified as new suspect in Berlin Christmas market attack
>Tunisian man now identified as truck attack suspect
>We still need to ban all Syrians
Crimes committed by Muslims will be a pan-Islamic plot and proof of Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of loners who do not represent their belief system at all.
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HMS Vanguard
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Postby HMS Vanguard » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:41 am

Itoshiki wrote:
HMS Vanguard wrote:I'm fully aware that Islam is congregationalist or even individualist in polity. Answer the question: what major grouping rejects the supremacy of the Caliphate and Shariah in principle? These things are fundamental to Islam.

The wording of the question intentionally makes it pointless and misleading.

There is no major grouping within Islam that rejects the supremacy of the Caliphate and the Shariah in principle. This does not address that there are individual Muslims and perhaps minor groupings who do, more on rejecting the supremacy of the Caliphate, less on the Shariah. This does not address that the Shi'as, who technically do not outright reject the Caliphate, seem content on not pushing modern pan-Islamic Caliphate narrative, and so do plenty of Sunnis. This does not address the definition and practice of Shariah, varying on totalitarian religious laws enforced by morality police to simple guidance of life. This does not address that Caliphal supremacy was practically irrelevant, stripped of real authority for much of its history even most Muslims recognize it. Hell, this does not address that the Ahmadis, a persecuted Muslim group in conservative Muslim countries, have their own Caliph in London, hardly could be described as the pinnacle of radical Islam.
Are they "fundamental"? Probably, but probably not to your definition.

Yes there are disagreements about who should be Caliph and precisely how that Caliph should act. There is no disagreement that 1. there should be Islamic world government and 2. Shariah should be its law.

I didn't answer your question the first time because it seems like a deliberate attempt to divert the discussion and waste my time. I don't think identifying who is a muslim is remotely hard.

How is it a diversion? You criticize my proposal as "establishing wide state surveillance, censorship" etc and then your proposed solution is...to expel all Muslims and forbid them entrance.

Which would obviate the need for such a state.
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Southerly Gentleman
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Postby Southerly Gentleman » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:52 am

Gauthier wrote:
Frank Zipper wrote:Anis Amri has been named as the suspect.

Tunisian man identified as new suspect in Berlin Christmas market attack
>Tunisian man now identified as truck attack suspect
>We still need to ban all Syrians

Just fine, we can extend the ban to Tunisians as well
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Postby Geilinor » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:43 pm

Gauthier wrote:
Frank Zipper wrote:Anis Amri has been named as the suspect.

Tunisian man identified as new suspect in Berlin Christmas market attack
>Tunisian man now identified as truck attack suspect
>We still need to ban all Syrians

IIRC, the original suspect was Pakistani, not Syrian.
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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:45 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Gauthier wrote:Tunisian man identified as new suspect in Berlin Christmas market attack
>Tunisian man now identified as truck attack suspect
>We still need to ban all Syrians

IIRC, the original suspect was Pakistani, not Syrian.

Gauthier wrote:

>Refugee from Pakistan
>Let's ban all Syrians
Crimes committed by Muslims will be a pan-Islamic plot and proof of Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of loners who do not represent their belief system at all.
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Seraven
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Postby Seraven » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:44 pm

New Moresby wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
So how will shutting the border stop natives committing terrorist attacks?


Theyre not European and will never be.

If we never let them in the first place it wouldn't of happened it's only going to get worse.

And then it'll get better ;)


Not sure. I mean, Germany still turned into Nazi by Hitler, no needed for external sources, the only one was the fact that Treaty of Versailles stripped them.
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The Alma Mater wrote:
Seraven wrote:I know right! Whites enslaved the natives, they killed them, they converted them forcibly, they acted like a better human beings than the Muslims.

An excellent example of why allowing unrestricted immigration of people with a very different culture might not be the best idea ever :P

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Seraven
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Postby Seraven » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:47 pm

HMS Vanguard wrote:
Vassenor wrote:So why do Muslims need to be expelled from Europe but White and Hispanic Europeans don't need to be expelled from the Americas?

Muslims make Europe worse, Whites make America better.


I know right! Whites enslaved the natives, they killed them, they converted them forcibly, they acted like a better human beings than the Muslims.
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The Alma Mater wrote:
Seraven wrote:I know right! Whites enslaved the natives, they killed them, they converted them forcibly, they acted like a better human beings than the Muslims.

An excellent example of why allowing unrestricted immigration of people with a very different culture might not be the best idea ever :P

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Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:44 pm

Seraven wrote:
HMS Vanguard wrote:Muslims make Europe worse, Whites make America better.


I know right! Whites enslaved the natives, they killed them, they converted them forcibly, they acted like a better human beings than the Muslims.

An excellent example of why allowing unrestricted immigration of people with a very different culture might not be the best idea ever :P
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Engleberg
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Postby Engleberg » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:55 pm

This event represents a horrible trend that has begun to spread in the world, and unfortunately will most likely continue into the future. And also, refugees shouldn't even be in Germany, and I am scared by the influx of them - even my hometown in Schleswig-Holstein has more Muslims and Arabic groups than any other ethnic group in it - 4,410.
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:08 pm

Engleberg wrote:This event represents a horrible trend that has begun to spread in the world, and unfortunately will most likely continue into the future. And also, refugees shouldn't even be in Germany, and I am scared by the influx of them - even my hometown in Schleswig-Holstein has more Muslims and Arabic groups than any other ethnic group in it - 4,410.

I believe Germans are an ethnic group. There are more Muslims in your town than Germans?
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Postby San Lumen » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:11 pm

Engleberg wrote:This event represents a horrible trend that has begun to spread in the world, and unfortunately will most likely continue into the future. And also, refugees shouldn't even be in Germany, and I am scared by the influx of them - even my hometown in Schleswig-Holstein has more Muslims and Arabic groups than any other ethnic group in it - 4,410.

Yes all refugees and Muslims are terrorists and we should forcibly send them back to where they came from. To say you fear someone just because of their race or religion or where they come from is the definition of xenophobia.

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Engleberg
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Postby Engleberg » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:20 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Engleberg wrote:This event represents a horrible trend that has begun to spread in the world, and unfortunately will most likely continue into the future. And also, refugees shouldn't even be in Germany, and I am scared by the influx of them - even my hometown in Schleswig-Holstein has more Muslims and Arabic groups than any other ethnic group in it - 4,410.

Yes all refugees and Muslims are terrorists and we should forcibly send them back to where they came from. To say you fear someone just because of their race or religion or where they come from is the definition of xenophobia.


When did I ever say that they all are terrorists? I never did; but when there is a pattern of terrorism attached to the religion and culture, then one must be wary of their situation. And I know it is the very definition of xenophobia, but I do not care because I'd rather be xenophobic and careful than accepting and in danger or dead.
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Zottistan
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Postby Zottistan » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:29 am

San Lumen wrote:
Engleberg wrote:This event represents a horrible trend that has begun to spread in the world, and unfortunately will most likely continue into the future. And also, refugees shouldn't even be in Germany, and I am scared by the influx of them - even my hometown in Schleswig-Holstein has more Muslims and Arabic groups than any other ethnic group in it - 4,410.

Yes all refugees and Muslims are terrorists and we should forcibly send them back to where they came from. To say you fear someone just because of their race or religion or where they come from is the definition of xenophobia.

Most Muslims obviously aren't terrorists, but it's worth mentioning that the overwhelming majority of terror attacks nowadays are Islamic.
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Minzerland II
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Postby Minzerland II » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:00 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:That's not what is stated.

What was stated was that Europe would have stagnated where it was. Whether you believe that is true or not is your own belief, but you're reading interpretations that were not stated.

I beg to differ.
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Seraven
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Postby Seraven » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:06 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Seraven wrote:
I know right! Whites enslaved the natives, they killed them, they converted them forcibly, they acted like a better human beings than the Muslims.

An excellent example of why allowing unrestricted immigration of people with a very different culture might not be the best idea ever :P


Yep, oh yes. :p

By the way, in case there are some misunderstandings with the others, I'm being sarcastic at there.
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The Alma Mater wrote:
Seraven wrote:I know right! Whites enslaved the natives, they killed them, they converted them forcibly, they acted like a better human beings than the Muslims.

An excellent example of why allowing unrestricted immigration of people with a very different culture might not be the best idea ever :P

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Postby The Lone Alliance » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:13 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Seraven wrote:
I know right! Whites enslaved the natives, they killed them, they converted them forcibly, they acted like a better human beings than the Muslims.

An excellent example of why allowing unrestricted immigration of people with a very different culture might not be the best idea ever :P

But of course it can NEVER happen again for some reason.
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