Elections, Hacking, Russia, And Trump: This Is Serious

[Fascism I]

Yeah, of course. I dont think that it's real, but it doesnt mean that we shouldn't look into that. Better safe than sorry, no?

Exactly. Hypothetically though, what if it did turn out that Russia aided Trump in winning the election, and that all of the Democratic fears that Trump is a puppet are true? How would you react?

Impeachment. Pence would be President though. Out of all the Republicans, Kasich and Trump are the most palatable. However, I prefer Gov. Kasich over Trump. As an Independent, I want this investigated. Clinton is a crook too. Trump may actually be a Russian puppet.

[Novus America]

But, considering the RNC wasn't hacked, I'd say the Russians are expecting Trump to do something. That something will be: Allowing Putin to control most of Eastern Europe with little or no resistance. I voted for Gary Johnson. So, I'm trying to be objective and give the President Elect the benefit of the doubt. But, its suspect asf.

It is more complicated than that.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.wsj.com/ ... ent=safari

Yes Russia supports Trump over Clinton because the believe based on a cost benefit analysis he is better for them than Hillary would be. For example Trump is probably going to be less focused on interfering in Russian politics. The US interferes in Russian politics all the time. Funding political NGOs, using Radio Free Europe (which was literally created for the purpose of political interference in the Soviet Union), etc.

Also Trump is less likely to drive a hardline against Russia. Again the Soviet Union suppprted LBJ over Goldwater. Because LBJ was less of a hardliner on foreign policy. Not because LBJ would "surrender Europe".

Which neither he nor Trump could do or wanted to do. You support the side that more closely aligns with your interests. Just because you support a side does not mean you agree with them on everything, even most things. But you think they are the lesser evil. That they would cause less damage to you.

Just because you prefer a side does not mean that side is your puppet.

[Community Values]

These are pretty serious issues. If Russia was accused of supporting Hillary Clinton in the election, you would want to check it out to, right?

The Soviet Union supported LBJ in 1964. The Saudis supported Clinton.
Russia is not the epitome of evil, and everything the support is not necessarily bad just because they support it.

Sure we should investigate as hacking is a crime, and if a crime was committed those who committed it should be punished.

But it does not change the outcome of the election.

By support I meant actively interfering with the election. A country can endorse whoever it wants.

[Novus America]

The Soviet Union supported LBJ in 1964. The Saudis supported Clinton.
Russia is not the epitome of evil, and everything the support is not necessarily bad just because they support it.

Sure we should investigate as hacking is a crime, and if a crime was committed those who committed it should be punished.

But it does not change the outcome of the election.

By support I meant actively interfering with the election. A country can endorse whoever it wants.

If Russia actually compromised the vote, such as by changing vote counts that would be different.
But nobody serious has alleged that actually happened.

Endorsing a side and releasing information on their behalf is common though. Look at all the political NGOs we help fund and Radio Free Europe for example. The US interferes in Russian politics all the time. We do not change vote counts, but we try to support the parties we think are more beneficial to us. Now the US might use more ethical methods, but we do the same thing. I am not sure why we are suprised. Or think this is something new. A lot of the "peace" organizations during the Cold War advocating unilateral nuclear disarmament were Soviet backed and funded.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Peace_Council

[New Werpland]

But, considering the RNC wasn't hacked, I'd say the Russians are expecting Trump to do something. That something will be: Allowing Putin to control most of Eastern Europe with little or no resistance. I voted for Gary Johnson. So, I'm trying to be objective and give the President Elect the benefit of the doubt. But, its suspect asf.

It is more complicated than that.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.wsj.com/ ... ent=safari

Yes Russia supports Trump over Clinton because the believe based on a cost benefit analysis he is better for them than Hillary would be. For example Trump is probably going to be less focused on interfering in Russian politics. The US interferes in Russian politics all the time. Funding political NGOs, using Radio Free Europe (which was literally created for the purpose of political interference in the Soviet Union), etc.

Also Trump is less likely to drive a hardline against Russia. Again the Soviet Union suppprted LBJ over Goldwater. Because LBJ was less of a hardliner on foreign policy. Not because LBJ would "surrender Europe".

Which neither he nor Trump could do or wanted to do. You support the side that more closely aligns with your interests. Just because you support a side does not mean you agree with them on everything, even most things. But you think they are the lesser evil. That they would cause less damage to you.

Just because you prefer a side does not mean that side is your puppet.

They were afraid of Clinton because they thought they would actually have to face a president which wouldn't stand for their encroachment into East Europe, not because she wanted to fund media and NGOs which have zero influence on Russia. The election was between defending American influence and the status quo or throwing it all away in favor of "getting along."

[Uxupox]

It is more complicated than that.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.wsj.com/ ... ent=safari

Yes Russia supports Trump over Clinton because the believe based on a cost benefit analysis he is better for them than Hillary would be. For example Trump is probably going to be less focused on interfering in Russian politics. The US interferes in Russian politics all the time. Funding political NGOs, using Radio Free Europe (which was literally created for the purpose of political interference in the Soviet Union), etc.

Also Trump is less likely to drive a hardline against Russia. Again the Soviet Union suppprted LBJ over Goldwater. Because LBJ was less of a hardliner on foreign policy. Not because LBJ would "surrender Europe".

Which neither he nor Trump could do or wanted to do. You support the side that more closely aligns with your interests. Just because you support a side does not mean you agree with them on everything, even most things. But you think they are the lesser evil. That they would cause less damage to you.

Just because you prefer a side does not mean that side is your puppet.

They were afraid of Clinton because they thought they would actually have to face a president which wouldn't stand for their encroachment into East Europe, not because she wanted to fund media and NGOs which have zero influence on Russia. The election was between defending American influence and the status quo or throwing it all away in favor of "getting along."

It's time for American led wars into other countries to stop.

[Novus America]

It is more complicated than that.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.wsj.com/ ... ent=safari

Yes Russia supports Trump over Clinton because the believe based on a cost benefit analysis he is better for them than Hillary would be. For example Trump is probably going to be less focused on interfering in Russian politics. The US interferes in Russian politics all the time. Funding political NGOs, using Radio Free Europe (which was literally created for the purpose of political interference in the Soviet Union), etc.

Also Trump is less likely to drive a hardline against Russia. Again the Soviet Union suppprted LBJ over Goldwater. Because LBJ was less of a hardliner on foreign policy. Not because LBJ would "surrender Europe".

Which neither he nor Trump could do or wanted to do. You support the side that more closely aligns with your interests. Just because you support a side does not mean you agree with them on everything, even most things. But you think they are the lesser evil. That they would cause less damage to you.

Just because you prefer a side does not mean that side is your puppet.

They were afraid of Clinton because they thought they would actually have to face a president which wouldn't stand for their encroachment into East Europe, not because she wanted to fund media and NGOs which have zero influence on Russia. The election was between defending American influence and the status quo or throwing it all away in favor of "getting along."

Oh, so you can read Putin's mind? We cannot be sure exactly why Russia thought Trump the lesser evil. We can speculate though. Sure Trump being less interested in Ukraine certainly is likely a reason, but Russia has been actively working to crush western backed NGOs. Also our attempt to Internet in their elections makes our complaints somewhat hypocritical. Obviously they would retaliate. That does not make either side morally better, but just points out basic logic.

Not everyone agrees on what US policy towards Europe should be. There are no objectively right or wrong answers on that. The agruement the US should woody less about other countries and more about our own is a valid one. Just because Russia prefers something does not make it objectively wrong.

Example the Ravens and Steelers are adversaries. If the Ravens are playing against the Browns, and beating the Browns improves the Steelers ranking, the Steelers will want the Ravens to win that game and the Ravens will not purposely lose the game just because the Steelers might benefit. Or be less harmed.

[Gauthier]

Exactly. Hypothetically though, what if it did turn out that Russia aided Trump in winning the election, and that all of the Democratic fears that Trump is a puppet are true? How would you react?

Impeachment. Pence would be President though. Out of all the Republicans, Kasich and Trump are the most palatable. However, I prefer Gov. Kasich over Trump. As an Independent, I want this investigated. Clinton is a crook too. Trump may actually be a Russian puppet.

All but certain Trump's tax returns would expose the sticks and strings. Notice how he has not released them even after being declared the winner.

[Novus America]

Impeachment. Pence would be President though. Out of all the Republicans, Kasich and Trump are the most palatable. However, I prefer Gov. Kasich over Trump. As an Independent, I want this investigated. Clinton is a crook too. Trump may actually be a Russian puppet.

All but certain Trump's tax returns would expose the sticks and strings. Notice how he has not released them even after being declared the winner.

Umm you know taxe returns are literally given to the government right? The US government already knows literally everything in his tax returns and has copies on file. If the had anything illegal in them the IRS would have already take action on them. Just because you do not want something released does not mean it is evidence of illegal behavior.

[Elwher]

If Russia did attempt to influence this election, and it is looking fairly likely that they did, it is simply karma biting us in the butt. I mean, how many foreign elections has the US attempted to influence in the past? We have sent in troops and advisors, we have propped up regimes, we have declared election results invalid, we have insisted that so and so must go, etc.

All of a sudden, when someone does it to us, it is a big deal and, according to some commentators, an act of war.

Can we say hypocrisy?

[New Werpland]

They were afraid of Clinton because they thought they would actually have to face a president which wouldn't stand for their encroachment into East Europe, not because she wanted to fund media and NGOs which have zero influence on Russia. The election was between defending American influence and the status quo or throwing it all away in favor of "getting along."

It's time for American led wars into other countries to stop.

It's time for America to defend the European security order from Russian-led wars. How many lives have been lost by American aggression in Europe versus Russian aggression?

[Gauthier]

All but certain Trump's tax returns would expose the sticks and strings. Notice how he has not released them even after being declared the winner.

Umm you know taxe returns are literally given to the government right? The US government already knows literally everything in his tax returns and has copies on file. If the had anything illegal in them the IRS would have already take action on them. Just because you do not want something released does not mean it is evidence of illegal behavior.

What's illegal about being in hock to Russian creditors? If there was nothing wrong about it why conceal the tax returns?

[The Portland Territory]

Yeah, of course. I dont think that it's real, but it doesnt mean that we shouldn't look into that. Better safe than sorry, no?

If we've learned anything this cycle, it's that Trump supporters seem to regard "we should make sure this didn't actually happen" as some sort of personal insult even when all it can do is make their position stronger.

*looks at post I made prior*

Que?

[The Portland Territory]

Donald Trump will be a good president. The dems are trying to find anything they can use to stop Trump.

Are you a time traveler and/or a good friend of the Doctor?

Nah, probably a Dalek

EGGS! EGGS! EGGS!

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Are you a time traveler and/or a good friend of the Doctor?

Nah, probably a Dalek

EGGS! EGGS! EGGS!

Eggs!Eggs!

[New Werpland]

They were afraid of Clinton because they thought they would actually have to face a president which wouldn't stand for their encroachment into East Europe, not because she wanted to fund media and NGOs which have zero influence on Russia. The election was between defending American influence and the status quo or throwing it all away in favor of "getting along."

Oh, so you can read Putin's mind? We cannot be sure exactly why Russia thought Trump the lesser evil. We can speculate though. Sure Trump being less interested in Ukraine certainly is likely a reason, but Russia has been actively working to crush western backed NGOs. Also our attempt to Internet in their elections makes our complaints somewhat hypocritical. Obviously they would retaliate. That does not make either side morally better, but just points out basic logic.

Not everyone agrees on what US policy towards Europe should be. There are no objectively right or wrong answers on that. The agruement the US should woody less about other countries and more about our own is a valid one. Just because Russia prefers something does not make it objectively wrong.

Example the Ravens and Steelers are adversaries. If the Ravens are playing against the Browns, and beating the Browns improves the Steelers ranking, the Steelers will want the Ravens to win that game and the Ravens will not purposely lose the game just because the Steelers might benefit. Or be less harmed.

No but I can tell the obvious. RFE has zero influence in Russia unless you count the minuscule liberal community still hanging on over there. Any influence we have over there is a joke, if anything it helps validate Putin's rhetoric.

What makes Russia's position wrong is that it largely contradicts what Russia actually agreed to after the Cold War ended and that they are willing to destabilize Eastern Europe for it. If we back out of Europe we will eventually feel consequences as well.

[Novus America]

It's time for American led wars into other countries to stop.

It's time for America to defend the European security order from Russian-led wars. How many lives have been lost by American aggression in Europe versus Russian aggression?

Missing the point. Just because you believe something does not mean everyone else does. LBJ did nothing about the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. Goldwater might have. Who was right? Who was wrong? You can argue both ways. Just because you disagree with a political stance does not make it morally or objectively wrong for someone else to have that stance.

[Uxupox]

It's time for American led wars into other countries to stop.

It's time for America to defend the European security order from Russian-led wars. How many lives have been lost by American aggression in Europe versus Russian aggression?

Not it's not. Fuck that. They have the capacity to defend themselves just fine with their population in combination with their overwhelming amount of money. If they can't its because they choose to.

[New Werpland]

It's time for America to defend the European security order from Russian-led wars. How many lives have been lost by American aggression in Europe versus Russian aggression?

Missing the point. Just because you believe something does not mean everyone else does. LBJ did nothing about the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. Goldwater might have. Who was right? Who was wrong? You can argue both ways. Just because you disagree with a political stance does not make it morally or objectively wrong for someone else to have that stance.

Generally people believe less death is a good thing. On that basis I can argue with Uxopox over what stance is better.

[Novus America]

Umm you know taxe returns are literally given to the government right? The US government already knows literally everything in his tax returns and has copies on file. If the had anything illegal in them the IRS would have already take action on them. Just because you do not want something released does not mean it is evidence of illegal behavior.

What's illegal about being in hock to Russian creditors? If there was nothing wrong about it why conceal the tax returns?

Have you even seen a tax return? They do not have that level of detail. But a credit report does, that information gets out easily.

Trump probably did not release them because they would undermine his image of being a uniquely successful business man, which he is not. There is no reason to think they show ebul Russia being ebul. But instead probably his actual income and net worth is lower than he likes people to think it is.

[Novus America]

Missing the point. Just because you believe something does not mean everyone else does. LBJ did nothing about the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. Goldwater might have. Who was right? Who was wrong? You can argue both ways. Just because you disagree with a political stance does not make it morally or objectively wrong for someone else to have that stance.

Generally people believe less death is a good thing. On that basis I can argue with Uxopox over what stance is better.

Yes, but that is off topic. That is a whole other topic. Just because you prefer a political outcome does not mean other people cannot legitimately prefer another outcome. And they are not doing something illegal or unethical just by disagreeing.

[Novus America]

Oh, so you can read Putin's mind? We cannot be sure exactly why Russia thought Trump the lesser evil. We can speculate though. Sure Trump being less interested in Ukraine certainly is likely a reason, but Russia has been actively working to crush western backed NGOs. Also our attempt to Internet in their elections makes our complaints somewhat hypocritical. Obviously they would retaliate. That does not make either side morally better, but just points out basic logic.

Not everyone agrees on what US policy towards Europe should be. There are no objectively right or wrong answers on that. The agruement the US should woody less about other countries and more about our own is a valid one. Just because Russia prefers something does not make it objectively wrong.

Example the Ravens and Steelers are adversaries. If the Ravens are playing against the Browns, and beating the Browns improves the Steelers ranking, the Steelers will want the Ravens to win that game and the Ravens will not purposely lose the game just because the Steelers might benefit. Or be less harmed.

No but I can tell the obvious. RFE has zero influence in Russia unless you count the minuscule liberal community still hanging on over there. Any influence we have over there is a joke, if anything it helps validate Putin's rhetoric.

What makes Russia's position wrong is that it largely contradicts what Russia actually agreed to after the Cold War ended and that they are willing to destabilize Eastern Europe for it. If we back out of Europe we will eventually feel consequences as well.

If Russia is not afraid of Western influence and NGOs, why shut them down? Sure US interference in Russian elections is completely incompetent. We simply suck at politcal interference. We still do it. But Russia is paranoid. They really seem to believe we can topple regimes at will. And claim we did in Ukraine. Either way we cannot say with certainty exactly why Putin does everything he does or what he is thinking.

Still missing the point. This thread is not about whether or not you agree with Trump's political stance.

[Cattle Mutilators]

"If Russia, or some other entity, was hacking, why did the White House wait so long to act? Why did they only complain after Hillary lost?" -Trump on FB

I'm actually intrigued. can someone please explain?

Proving Russian complicity in hacking the Democrats and spilling their private communications into the public eye through Wikileaks will likely require compromising sources, methods, and (ultimately) real live assets (who will then end up getting arrested and/or killed).

The White House likely made the same miscalculation that Democrats did, not expecting Comey's hijinx in first falsely implying that Anthony Wiener's laptop held damning information on Hillary Clinton and then reversing himself a few days before the election in such a way as to anger Trump voters into thinking that Clinton's "guilt" was being swept under the rug. Without the FBI's help, Clinton might very well have won the election, after all (several people, including Nate Silver, have argued as much based on the polling data, as an overwhelming majority of last-minute deciders broke for Trump and not Clinton, and because the Comey story blew all talk of Trump's "p-ssy grabbing" problems right off the airwaves).

Given that calculation, compromising intelligence sources, methods, and assets to alert the public to complicity between Trump and the Russians may well have seemed to be something we didn't have to do, in which case why pay the price.

Now, of course, we're going to pay a far higher cost for the resulting Russian takeover: Essentially, everything we've got.

[Galloism]

"If Russia, or some other entity, was hacking, why did the White House wait so long to act? Why did they only complain after Hillary lost?" -Trump on FB

I'm actually intrigued. can someone please explain?

I can explain: he's lying.

The white house released a statement on the foreign interference in the election in October, and Trump actually addressed the issue (denying the Russian involvement) in the third debate, which is on youtube if you want to verify that not only did the White House talk about it then, Donald Trump talked about the White House talking about it.

[Escalia]

If Russia did attempt to influence this election, and it is looking fairly likely that they did, it is simply karma biting us in the butt. I mean, how many foreign elections has the US attempted to influence in the past? We have sent in troops and advisors, we have propped up regimes, we have declared election results invalid, we have insisted that so and so must go, etc.

All of a sudden, when someone does it to us, it is a big deal and, according to some commentators, an act of war.

Can we say hypocrisy?

Two wrongs don't make a right.