Religion and LGBT Issues

[Neutraligon]

Sure, he creates heaven on earth and cleanse everyone of sin without killing a single person. Simple, he is allowing sin to exist despite being able to prevent it, and then blaiming people because he allows it to exist. In my opinion this is something that is morally bankrupt.

And they might not follow tradition because Jesus told them it was wrong to do so.

Correct, so why is it then that humans condemning homosexuals while not condemning you for your sins should be ignored? After all

Thus what a church or a theocracy is also just pointless yammering and absurdity as a theocracy is also just the claims of a society.

And religious devotion is just opinion and taste. Calling it right or wrong is still just pointless yammering and absurdity.

To prevent sin, he would have to force us to accept him into our lives.

And? Is god unwilling or unable to work to have people love him?

People in heaven are able to be cleansed of sin because they love God. The process would not work on those who hate Him, because they are so alienated from His nature. The way to not be alienated from His nature is through faith, sacraments, and works.

So basically god is only able to do it in this one way, seems like a rather weak god. What is wrong with forcing love, I see no difference between that and what your god is currently trying to do.

Then they ought to say that that is why they aren't following it, instead of falsely claiming that they are.

Or they truly believe they are following the tradition of listening to Jesus, and thus are actually following tradition

No, because a Church or theocracy would be trying to steer people toward purpose, which, as I have been saying the whole time, purpose is the bringer about of morality. Therefore, by bringing more people to their purpose, you are doing a moral action.

It is still just the opinion of a society, no different from anyone else who believes they are trying to bring people to devotion, and is thus still simply yammering and opinion.

You are completely twisting my words because you either have no idea what they mean or you are deliberately being stubborn, so I will say this one more time:
Whether a society believes something is moral or not, does not affect whether something is moral or not.

And as such the society created by your church does not make something moral, and as such their opinion are useless.

No matter what, you are depending on fallible humans, to not only accurately understand god, but also to accurately convey it to others, but also to do so against the whims of Satan, all the meanwhile the laypeople have nothing to show that this was all done. As I said for all I know the Orthodox church is following the whims of Satan, and all your condemnation, and all your teachings are actually the teaching of Satan.

[United Marxist Nations]

To prevent sin, he would have to force us to accept him into our lives.

And?

People in heaven are able to be cleansed of sin because they love God. The process would not work on those who hate Him, because they are so alienated from His nature. The way to not be alienated from His nature is through faith, sacraments, and works.

So basically god is only able to do it in this one way, seems like a rather weak god. What is wrong with forcing love, I see no difference between that and what your god is currently trying to do.

Then they ought to say that that is why they aren't following it, instead of falsely claiming that they are.

Or they truly believe they are following the tradition of listening to Jesus, and thus are actually following tradition

No, because a Church or theocracy would be trying to steer people toward purpose, which, as I have been saying the whole time, purpose is the bringer about of morality. Therefore, by bringing more people to their purpose, you are doing a moral action.

It is still just the opinion of a society, no different from anyone else who believes they are trying to bring people to devotion, and is thus still simply yammering and opinion.

You are completely twisting my words because you either have no idea what they mean or you are deliberately being stubborn, so I will say this one more time:

Whether a society believes something is moral or not, does not affect whether something is moral or not.[\quote] And as such the society created by your church does not make something moral, and as such their opinion are useless. No matter what you are depending on fallible humans, to not only accurately understand god, but also to accurately convey it to others, but also to do so against the whims of Satan, all the meanwhile the laypeople have nothing to show that this was all done. As I said for all I know the Orthodox church is following the whims of Satan, and all your condemnation, and all your teachings are actually the teaching of Satan.

He can force His love into our lives, but we wouldn't be able to understand it, as we are so alienated from Him, through our own choice, that it would simply cause us pain.

No, I mean they should say that they are listening to Jesus, rather than following Apostolic tradition like the rest of us. None of the Churches claim that Jesus tells them things, we say that the Holy Tradition is protected from error by the Holy Spirit.

What makes them moral doesn't come from them, what part of this are you not getting. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, for God's sake.

Since we're making no progress, let's get back to the actual thread topic.

[Seperates]

What makes them moral doesn't come from them, what part of this are you not getting. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, for God's sake.

Says the person who has the 'open mind is an unguarded castle' shtick in their sig.

I get it. We are dogmatic. You are dogmatic.

We are all dogs on the internet.

Woof.

[Neutraligon]

And?
So basically god is only able to do it in this one way, seems like a rather weak god. What is wrong with forcing love, I see no difference between that and what your god is currently trying to do.

Or they truly believe they are following the tradition of listening to Jesus, and thus are actually following tradition

It is still just the opinion of a society, no different from anyone else who believes they are trying to bring people to devotion, and is thus still simply yammering and opinion.

He can force His love into our lives, but we wouldn't be able to understand it, as we are so alienated from Him, through our own choice, that it would simply cause us pain.

And yet people already claim we cannot understand god, how would this be any different from what happens now. Once again god should know exactly what would make me love him without forcing me into anything, why does he not do so?

No, I mean they should say that they are listening to Jesus, rather than following Apostolic tradition like the rest of us. None of the Churches claim that Jesus tells them things, we say that the Holy Tradition is protected from error by the Holy Spirit.

And so they are able to listen to god by obeying the holy spirit, which is part of holy tradition thus they are doing both.

What makes them moral doesn't come from them, what part of this are you not getting. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, for God's sake.

Tell me, how do you know that what they are saying is what god wants. You are depending on people in a society who might for all you know be obeying Satan. You claim tradition, but for all you know that tradition was created by Satan. No matter what you are in the end depending on a church, which is a society to supposedly dictate that words of god. I do not see how this society and the one you dismissed when it comes to how they treat homosexuals are any different. This is directly related to the topic.

Oh, and try not to flame, it does not make your arguments any stronger.

[United Marxist Nations]

He can force His love into our lives, but we wouldn't be able to understand it, as we are so alienated from Him, through our own choice, that it would simply cause us pain.

And yet people already claim we cannot understand god, how would this be any different from what happens now. Once again god should know exactly what would make me love him without forcing me into anything, why does he not do so?

No, I mean they should say that they are listening to Jesus, rather than following Apostolic tradition like the rest of us. None of the Churches claim that Jesus tells them things, we say that the Holy Tradition is protected from error by the Holy Spirit.

And so they are able to listen to god by obeying the holy spirit, which is part of holy tradition thus they are doing both.

What makes them moral doesn't come from them, what part of this are you not getting. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, for God's sake.

Tell me, how do you know that what they are saying is what god wants. You are depending on people in a society who might for all you know be obeying Satan. You claim tradition, but for all you know that tradition was created by Satan. No matter what you are in the end depending on a church, which is a society to supposedly dictate that words of god. I do not see how this society and the one you dismissed when it comes to how they treat homosexuals are any different.

Because you clearly hate him, what do you want me to say?

What the hell are you even talking about? Do you even know anything about doctrine?

Christ tells us that not even the gates of Hell will triumph against the Church.

No, good, we can get back to the actual topic. I think that homosexual culture should be forced underground because it has an influence that encourages fornication.

[Neutraligon]

And yet people already claim we cannot understand god, how would this be any different from what happens now. Once again god should know exactly what would make me love him without forcing me into anything, why does he not do so?

And so they are able to listen to god by obeying the holy spirit, which is part of holy tradition thus they are doing both.

Tell me, how do you know that what they are saying is what god wants. You are depending on people in a society who might for all you know be obeying Satan. You claim tradition, but for all you know that tradition was created by Satan. No matter what you are in the end depending on a church, which is a society to supposedly dictate that words of god. I do not see how this society and the one you dismissed when it comes to how they treat homosexuals are any different.

Because you clearly hate him, what do you want me to say?

I hate him the same way I hate Darth Vader, or any other fictional being. That is to say I don't think he exists, but his actions make me think he is a rather evil fictional character

What the hell are you even talking about? Do you even know anything about doctrine?

Doctrine can easily change interpretation.

Christ tells us that not even the gates of Hell will triumph against the Church.

That sounds like saying that Hell has no power against preventing the church from doing wrong, you sure you want to claim that, oh and that assumes your church is the correct one.

No, good, we can get back to the actual topic. I think that homosexual culture should be forced underground because it has an influence that encourages fornication.

It is the forcing them underground itself that encourages fornication, as shown by the past in the US. It is when they are allowed out in the open, when they are allowed to from monogamous unions that fortification will decrease. Your aim directly forwards the thing you want to prevent. Since we were not off topic to begin with your first sentence here was useless.

[MERIZoC]

Nothing wrong with a good fornication once in a while UMN. You should try it some time, loosen up a bit.

[United Marxist Nations]

Because you clearly hate him, what do you want me to say?

I hate him the same way I hate Darth Vader, or any other fictional being. That is to say I don't think he exists, but his actions make me think he is a rather evil fictional character

What the hell are you even talking about? Do you even know anything about doctrine?

Doctrine can easily change interpretation.

Christ tells us that not even the gates of Hell will triumph against the Church.

That sounds like saying that Hell has no power against preventing the church from doing wrong, you sure you want to claim that, oh and that assumes your church is the correct one.

No, good, we can get back to the actual topic. I think that homosexual culture should be forced underground because it has an influence that encourages fornication.

It is the forcing them underground itself that encourages fornication, as shown by the past in the US. It is when they are allowed out in the open, when they are allowed to from monogamous unions that fortification will decrease. Your aim directly forwards the thing you want to prevent. Since we were not off topic to begin with your first sentence here was useless.

It hasn't changed. We know this because there are several non-heretical schismatic groups that all hold generally the same doctrines as us.

All homosexual sexual activity is fornication in my view.

[Neutraligon]

Nothing wrong with a good fornication once in a while UMN. You should try it some time, loosen up a bit.

That and as I said forcing them underground just means they will have no other option but to fornicate if they wish to have sex with someone they are attracted to.

[Neutraligon]

I hate him the same way I hate Darth Vader, or any other fictional being. That is to say I don't think he exists, but his actions make me think he is a rather evil fictional character

Doctrine can easily change interpretation.

That sounds like saying that Hell has no power against preventing the church from doing wrong, you sure you want to claim that, oh and that assumes your church is the correct one.

It is the forcing them underground itself that encourages fornication, as shown by the past in the US. It is when they are allowed out in the open, when they are allowed to from monogamous unions that fortification will decrease. Your aim directly forwards the thing you want to prevent. Since we were not off topic to begin with your first sentence here was useless.

It hasn't changed. We know this because there are several non-heretical schismatic groups that all hold generally the same doctrines as us.

All homosexual sexual activity is fornication in my view.

For all I know it has, and all the churches are actually just obeying Satan. That is the problem with depending on apostles, or other humans to dictate what god has said.

In which case forcing them underground will change nothing and make it so that they are more likely to face issues like Aids, suicide, murder, other mental illnesses, etc. Your own actions will make things objectively worse for them.

[Venerable Bede]

Doctrine can easily change interpretation.

Ehhhhhh, not for us. Catholics believe that the understanding of doctrine can develop, but we're dogmatically opposed to changing interpretation of doctrine.

[United Marxist Nations]

It hasn't changed. We know this because there are several non-heretical schismatic groups that all hold generally the same doctrines as us.

All homosexual sexual activity is fornication in my view.

For all I know it has, and all the churches are actually just obeying Satan. That is the problem with depending on apostles, or other humans to dictate what god has said.

In which case forcing them underground will change nothing and make it so that they are more likely to face issues like Aids, suicide, murder, other mental illnesses, etc. Your own actions will make things objectively worse for them.

But we know that at least one of them is protected from error by the Holy Spirit.

It would prevent them from influencing and sexualizing the rest of society.

[Neutraligon]

Doctrine can easily change interpretation.

Ehhhhhh, not for us. Catholics believe that the understanding of doctrine can develop, but we're dogmatically opposed to changing interpretation of doctrine.

In which case you would be resistant to changes or corrections even if it is coming from god himself should god be speaking through a priest.

[Engleberg]

Nothing wrong with a good fornication once in a while UMN. You should try it some time, loosen up a bit.

There's plenty wrong with it, especially if it is homosexual.

[MERIZoC]

Nothing wrong with a good fornication once in a while UMN. You should try it some time, loosen up a bit.

There's plenty wrong with it, especially if it is homosexual.

Have you tried it?

[Neutraligon]

For all I know it has, and all the churches are actually just obeying Satan. That is the problem with depending on apostles, or other humans to dictate what god has said.

In which case forcing them underground will change nothing and make it so that they are more likely to face issues like Aids, suicide, murder, other mental illnesses, etc. Your own actions will make things objectively worse for them.

But we know that at least one of them is protected from error by the Holy Spirit.

Based on what your church claims.... You don't see the problem there?

It would prevent them from influencing and sexualizing the rest of society.

Since society was influenced and sexualized long before homosexuality was effected, no it would not. And I notice you ignored the other problems,

[Engleberg]

There's plenty wrong with it, especially if it is homosexual.

Have you tried it?

Good lord no, I would never partake in such actions.

[Venerable Bede]

Ehhhhhh, not for us. Catholics believe that the understanding of doctrine can develop, but we're dogmatically opposed to changing interpretation of doctrine.

In which case you would be resistant to changes or corrections even if it is coming from god himself should god be speaking through a priest.

You mean if God gave us a new covenant? Because otherwise a "correction" would suggest God is repairing his own mistake.

[United Marxist Nations]

But we know that at least one of them is protected from error by the Holy Spirit.

Based on what your church claims.... You don't see the problem there?

It would prevent them from influencing and sexualizing the rest of society.

Since society was influenced and sexualized long before homosexuality was effected, no it would not. And I notice you ignored the other problems,

I hold that there is no absolute knowledge. Faith is required. And I have faith in the Church.

They are free to engage in safe sex. What they are not free to do is flaunt their sexuality through things like pride-parades, gay bars, etc. Straight people would be similarly limited.

[Neutraligon]

In which case you would be resistant to changes or corrections even if it is coming from god himself should god be speaking through a priest.

You mean if God gave us a new covenant? Because otherwise a "correction" would suggest God is repairing his own mistake.

No, it could be god correcting fallible humans who made a mistake on what he wanted. Oh and...god has done so before.

[Neutraligon]

Based on what your church claims.... You don't see the problem there?


Since society was influenced and sexualized long before homosexuality was effected, no it would not. And I notice you ignored the other problems,

I hold that there is no absolute knowledge. Faith is required. And I have faith in the Church.

Which mans you could be obeying Satan and your condemnation is actually sending you to hell. You have faith in your church the same way Catholic have faith in theirs, etc. Basically you are being gullible, and because of your faith are harming people, possibly at he whim of Satan.

They are free to engage in safe sex. What they are not free to do is flaunt their sexuality through things like pride-parades, gay bars, etc. Straight people would be similarly limited.

Pride parades are to state that there is no reason to be ashamed, it is not solely to flaunt. So I assume you would shut down all bars, since bars are used by people to meet; gay bars are just places where homosexuals can meet others. THat didn't work last time this was tried.

[Venerable Bede]

You mean if God gave us a new covenant? Because otherwise a "correction" would suggest God is repairing his own mistake.

No, it could be god correcting fallible humans who made a mistake on what he wanted. Oh and...god has done so before.

I don't see how such a mistake could persist for 2,000 years in the Church Christ said is administrated and guarded by the Spirit of Truth.

[United Marxist Nations]

I hold that there is no absolute knowledge. Faith is required. And I have faith in the Church.

Which mans you could be obeying Satan and your condemnation is actually sending you to hell. You have faith in your church the same way Catholic have faith in theirs, etc. Basically you are being gullible.

They are free to engage in safe sex. What they are not free to do is flaunt their sexuality through things like pride-parades, gay bars, etc. Straight people would be similarly limited.

Pride parades are to state that there is no reason to be ashamed, it is not solely to flaunt. So I assume you would shut down all bars, since bars are used by people to meet; gay bars are just places where homosexuals can meet others. THat didn't work last time this was tried.

You could say that anyone who believes anything is gullible by that logic.

I would support bars that did not comply with certain rules. Gay bars that do not promote homosexual activity, but simply community, could be allowed.

[Yoshida (Ancient)]

Which mans you could be obeying Satan and your condemnation is actually sending you to hell. You have faith in your church the same way Catholic have faith in theirs, etc. Basically you are being gullible.

Pride parades are to state that there is no reason to be ashamed, it is not solely to flaunt. So I assume you would shut down all bars, since bars are used by people to meet; gay bars are just places where homosexuals can meet others. THat didn't work last time this was tried.

You could say that anyone who believes anything is gullible by that logic.

I would support bars that did not comply with certain rules. Gay bars that do not promote homosexual activity, but simply community, could be allowed.

It's a bar for gay people to meet, how the hell is it not going to "promote" homosexual activity? It's like saying you support Churches as long as they don't "promote" Christian activity.

[United Marxist Nations]

You could say that anyone who believes anything is gullible by that logic.

I would support bars that did not comply with certain rules. Gay bars that do not promote homosexual activity, but simply community, could be allowed.

It's a bar for gay people to meet, how the hell is it not going to "promote" homosexual activity? It's like saying you support Churches as long as they don't "promote" Christian activity.

Homosexuals should be able to meet and socialize with others of their kind. I just don't think they should be able to promote themselves as a place for sexual encounters.