Religion and LGBT Issues

[Southerly Gentleman]

"(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts."

Well then yes morality can certainly be objective, science and the scientific method are able to give a firm foundation for morality.

Oh really? Please enlighten me on how this can be done with SCIENCE

That said I don't know why personal feelings should be discounted as I don't care for society being a collective of sociopaths.

Then you should have no problem at all with people basing their religious beliefs on personal feeling

[Genivaria]

Well I didn't say anything about 'feelings' I said that secular morality is actually based in the real world.

Secular morality is no more based in the real world than religion. It relies on religious principles such as the golden rule or plain empathy to justify itself.

First off the Golden Rule is not a 'religious principle', that's just a silly and demonstrably false assertion.
And yes it is based in the real world because it deals with the physical and not the supernatural and unprovable, simply asserting otherwise proves nothing.

[Genivaria]

Well then yes morality can certainly be objective, science and the scientific method are able to give a firm foundation for morality.

Oh really? Please enlighten me on how this can be done with SCIENCE

That said I don't know why personal feelings should be discounted as I don't care for society being a collective of sociopaths.

Then you should have no problem at all with people basing their religious beliefs on personal feeling

Sure the moment they can justify why they hold their religious beliefs. So far I've seen nothing.

[Southerly Gentleman]

Oh really? Please enlighten me on how this can be done with SCIENCE

Then you should have no problem at all with people basing their religious beliefs on personal feeling

Sure the moment they can justify why they hold their religious beliefs. So far I've seen nothing.

because of personal fucking feeling! Isn't that what you were just saying morality should be based on in a society that isn't full of sociopaths?

[United Marxist Nations]

Secular morality is no more based in the real world than religion. It relies on religious principles such as the golden rule or plain empathy to justify itself.

First off the Golden Rule is not a 'religious principle', that's just a silly and demonstrably false assertion.
And yes it is based in the real world because it deals with the physical and not the supernatural and unprovable, simply asserting otherwise proves nothing.

Yes it is, the Golden Rule has its beginnings in religion. The first descriptions of it are from an ancient Egyptian goddess, from the Bible, from Hinduism, and from Confucius.

[Genivaria]

Seriously why does the Golden Rule have to be explained all over again so many times?

You realize the "Golden Rule" originated in Christianity and Judaism, right?

So you are practicing Christian morality. Albeit a very stripped down version.

No...no it didn't.
Christianity and Judaism simply appropriated it.
Seriously a 5 second google search would prove you wrong.

Possibly the earliest affirmation of the maxim of reciprocity, reflecting the ancient Egyptian goddess Ma'at, appears in the story of The Eloquent Peasant, which dates to the Middle Kingdom (c. 2040 – c. 1650 BC): "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do."[10][11] This proverb embodies the do ut des principle.[12] A Late Period (c. 664 BC – 323 BC) papyrus contains an early negative affirmation of the Golden Rule: "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another."[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule#Ancient_Egypt

[The East Marches]

Secular morality is no more based in the real world than religion. It relies on religious principles such as the golden rule or plain empathy to justify itself.

First off the Golden Rule is not a 'religious principle', that's just a silly and demonstrably false assertion.
And yes it is based in the real world because it deals with the physical and not the supernatural and unprovable, simply asserting otherwise proves nothing.

"Ow, that hurts! Please don't do it!" doesn't seem all that arbitrary to me.

Sure it does. If hurting you benefits me and has no adverse effect on societal stability, why not?

[United Marxist Nations]

You realize the "Golden Rule" originated in Christianity and Judaism, right?

So you are practicing Christian morality. Albeit a very stripped down version.

No...no it didn't.
Christianity and Judaism simply appropriated it.
Seriously a 5 second google search would prove you wrong.

Possibly the earliest affirmation of the maxim of reciprocity, reflecting the ancient Egyptian goddess Ma'at, appears in the story of The Eloquent Peasant, which dates to the Middle Kingdom (c. 2040 – c. 1650 BC): "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do."[10][11] This proverb embodies the do ut des principle.[12] A Late Period (c. 664 BC – 323 BC) papyrus contains an early negative affirmation of the Golden Rule: "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another."[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule#Ancient_Egypt

It's still a religious morality, then.

[Genivaria]

Sure the moment they can justify why they hold their religious beliefs. So far I've seen nothing.

because of personal fucking feeling! Isn't that what you were just saying morality should be based on in a society that isn't full of sociopaths?

No I said I don't know why emotion should have no part in morality and moral judgments.
When trying to determine what is TRUE yes personal feelings are not enough.

[Southerly Gentleman]

because of personal fucking feeling! Isn't that what you were just saying morality should be based on in a society that isn't full of sociopaths?

No I said I don't know why emotion should have no part in morality and moral judgments.
When trying to determine what is TRUE yes personal feelings are not enough.

So by your own admittance, morality is not true. Thus why, objectively, should anyone subscribe to it?

[United Marxist Nations]

because of personal fucking feeling! Isn't that what you were just saying morality should be based on in a society that isn't full of sociopaths?

No I said I don't know why emotion should have no part in morality and moral judgments.
When trying to determine what is TRUE yes personal feelings are not enough.

Because morality and moral judgement should be based on what is true. If they are based on emotion, then everyone can have their own different morality. I could decide, for example, that the production of steel is the supreme good.

[Genivaria]

No...no it didn't.
Christianity and Judaism simply appropriated it.
Seriously a 5 second google search would prove you wrong.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule#Ancient_Egypt

It's still a religious morality, then.

I just linked you to a dozen examples and you're still asserting that which has JUST been disproven?
Are you a liar or too lazy to read? Because it is one or the other.

[Genivaria]

No I said I don't know why emotion should have no part in morality and moral judgments.
When trying to determine what is TRUE yes personal feelings are not enough.

So by your own admittance, morality is not true. Thus why, objectively, should anyone subscribe to it?

Feel free to quote me saying that, I'll wait.

[United Marxist Nations]

It's still a religious morality, then.

I just linked you to a dozen examples and you're still asserting that which has JUST been disproven?
Are you a liar or too lazy to read? Because it is one or the other.

The first example is the command of an ancient Egyptian goddess. Most of the examples on the wiki page are from religious texts.

[The East Marches]

Still hasn't addressed my argument. If I can hurt another, get away with it and it does not hurt societal stability, why should I extend the golden rule to them?

[Genivaria]

No I said I don't know why emotion should have no part in morality and moral judgments.
When trying to determine what is TRUE yes personal feelings are not enough.

Because morality and moral judgement should be based on what is true. If they are based on emotion, then everyone can have their own different morality. I could decide, for example, that the production of steel is the supreme good.

Well everyone DOES have their own morality and your moral framework doesn't at all prevent that.
Seriously you are trying to point out absurd things and calling them problems and you don't want to admit that they exist regardless.
What's that proverb "Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones" ?

[Aelex]

But I was talking about how Pedophiles and other sex offenders basically use the LGBT community as a safe place to hide like they apparently did with the catholic church. Except to a much greater degree, and it's being coddled.

You mean like they use the Muslim community, except that there pedophilia is actually viewed as something absolutely normal?
I mean it's not that surprising after all as Mahomet himself, who is as everyone know the "pattern of conduct" of Muslims; not only married a six year old girl but also advocated repeatedly to others that they follow his exemple, mocking one of his friends for choosing an adult wife and asking him why he didn't "marry a young girl so that [he] may play with her and she with [him]?" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17).

Now, I'm not saying that you personally advocate pedophilia Jochi but you have to admit that given the record of your community, your argumentation sounds really hypocritical.

[Genivaria]

Still hasn't addressed my argument. If I can hurt another, get away with it and it does not hurt societal stability, why should I extend the golden rule to them?

Because that harms societal stability. Three thousand years of recorded history show that unrestrained, wanton cruelty does nothing but harm society as a whole.

[United Marxist Nations]

Because morality and moral judgement should be based on what is true. If they are based on emotion, then everyone can have their own different morality. I could decide, for example, that the production of steel is the supreme good.

Well everyone DOES have their own morality and your moral framework doesn't at all prevent that.
Seriously you are trying to point out absurd things and calling them problems and you don't want to admit that they exist regardless.
What's that proverb "Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones" ?

I don't think everyone has their own morality. I think there is a universal morality, and that those who don't agree with that universal morality are wrong.

[United Marxist Nations]

Still hasn't addressed my argument. If I can hurt another, get away with it and it does not hurt societal stability, why should I extend the golden rule to them?

Because that harms societal stability. Three thousand years of recorded history show that unrestrained, wanton cruelty does nothing but harm society as a whole.

Why is harming society bad?

[Southerly Gentleman]

So by your own admittance, morality is not true. Thus why, objectively, should anyone subscribe to it?

Feel free to quote me saying that, I'll wait.

One moment sir.

That said I don't know why personal feelings should be discounted as I don't care for society being a collective of sociopaths.

When trying to determine what is TRUE yes personal feelings are not enough.

>Personal feelings determine morality
>Personal feelings do not determine what is true
>By syllogism, morality is not true

[Genivaria]

I just linked you to a dozen examples and you're still asserting that which has JUST been disproven?
Are you a liar or too lazy to read? Because it is one or the other.

The first example is the command of an ancient Egyptian goddess. Most of the examples on the wiki page are from religious texts.

So it would be more accurate to say that it is a universal moral code.
But if you insist on calling it a 'religious' code then I await your conversion to the Ancient Egyptian faith...you know going by your logic.

[Pasong Tirad]

Still hasn't addressed my argument. If I can hurt another, get away with it and it does not hurt societal stability, why should I extend the golden rule to them?

Because -I assume - you aren't a major dick.

[Genivaria]

Feel free to quote me saying that, I'll wait.

One moment sir.

That said I don't know why personal feelings should be discounted as I don't care for society being a collective of sociopaths.

When trying to determine what is TRUE yes personal feelings are not enough.

>Personal feelings determine morality
>Personal feelings do not determine what is true
>By syllogism, morality is not true

No I said personal feelings should not be DISCOUNTED.
Please learn to fucking read if you're going to throw my own words at me.

[United Marxist Nations]

The first example is the command of an ancient Egyptian goddess. Most of the examples on the wiki page are from religious texts.

So it would be more accurate to say that it is a universal moral code.
But if you insist on calling it a 'religious' code then I await your conversion to the Ancient Egyptian faith...you know going by your logic.

The Golden Rule originates in religion, it is therefore a religious code that secularists appropriate because they can't think of anything.