Turkish Foreign Minister claims Greek islands are Turkish

[Risottia]

NATO members tend to defend each other when one of them is attacked by an outside aggressor, but what if a NATO member is attacked by a NATO member?

The Treaty doesn't make a special rule about the aggressor being a NATO member. Every other NATO member would be called to help Greece in the way it sees fit.

Considering how Erdogan is cozying up to Putin, I'd take for granted that at the very least the Baltics, and Poland would be more than willing to kick some Turkish arse.
Not to mention that Italy, France, and Germany would be happy if there wasn't no Erdogan threatening them with his control over the immigration floodgates.

[Gauthier]

If only that coup wouldn't have been a failure, we wouldn't have to deal with this idiocy. I hate Erdogan and his government.

Erdogan not being couped, Brexit, Trump... It's like the universe wants to watch the world burn.

[Defender of Democracy]

If people think it has anything to do with Erdogan and Turkeys Islamist turn they'd be wrong.
Under the previous Kemalist governments in Turkey the same crap was happening.

No, there actually are some crucial differences.

Kemalist Turkey was content with sabre-rattling with Greece, and pretty much only Greece, over its immediate border regions. The Kemalists were also perfectly aware of Turkey's place in the Western security system and did not try to challenge it.

Islamist Turkey, on the other hand, has gone completely bonkers with the imperial overreach. They constantly antagonize the US, they openly threaten the EU (something that Kemalist Turkey would never have done), and they engange in increasingly aggressive power projection in the Balkans and the Middle East, up to and including supporting jihadist terrorism.

Kemalist Turkey was content with Asia Minor and maybe everything that touched its borders. Islamist Turkey thinks she deserves a vast empire.

This is the monster that the West created.

It is, first and foremost, the monster that Turkish society itself, with its paranoia, authoritarianism, xenophobia and revanchism, has created.

Too bad America stood in the way of Russia bombing them to their 72 virgins when they shot the Russian bomber down in Syria.

Yeah right, because this is what Russia would have done.

You've completely misunderstood what I was getting at.
For Greece it matters little if Turkey is ruled by Kemalists or Islamists.
It matters little because the territorial claims and non-recognition of Greeces sovereignty didn't change when the Islamists took power, but continued.

It was Kemalists who brought the two countries to the brink of war, because they vastly underestemated Greeces resolve and when they realised Greece would go all out to defend its territorial integrity(as they witnessed the response from Greece), the Turkish prime minister was quickly on the phone to Bill Clinton(US president at the time) imploring him to intervene. The phone call is even mentioned in his memoirs.

This time around with Greeces economic issues the Islamist Turks think they've got an opportunity to seize some islands. The objectives and claims for Turkey against Greece are the same now as they were then.


Ok so take away the protection of the USA and NATO, and you think Russia wouldn't have retaliated with military force? Go ask Georgia what happens when you attack Russian forces. Georgia didn't have the luxury of being a NATO member.

[Tekeristan]

What do we do?

[Uxupox]

NATO members tend to defend each other when one of them is attacked by an outside aggressor, but what if a NATO member is attacked by a NATO member?

The Treaty doesn't make a special rule about the aggressor being a NATO member. Every other NATO member would be called to help Greece in the way it sees fit.

Considering how Erdogan is cozying up to Putin, I'd take for granted that at the very least the Baltics, and Poland would be more than willing to kick some Turkish arse.
Not to mention that Italy, France, and Germany would be happy if there wasn't no Erdogan threatening them with his control over the immigration floodgates.

Highly unlikely that there is going to be a war between them anyway. These disputes have been going on for decades now.

[New Werpland]

This is totally unprecedented! Also you've completely overlooked the interesting bit, this is coming from the opposition not Erdogan. Indeed Kilicdaroglu started it, this is part of his continuing regrettable tactic of trying to woo nationalists.

That the Turkish parties are trying to enter a dickwaving contest over who will make the bigger claims on neighbor countries territories is repulsive on itself.

However, what Kilicdaroglu says matters little because it is the AKP that is holding more and more absolute power in Turkey. Even the MHP have become their little toadies lately.

Kilicdaroglu is not a fake opposition leader though, at least not yet. I don't think there is a faction (besides maybe the Kurds) in Turkish politics which doesn't dispute Greek sovereignty.

Still, if I were Tsipras I would trade Imia for some form of aid from Erdogan. Nobody lives on Imia and the trade would actually help Greece by assuring Mitsotakis wins next time.

Erm you do know they aren't allowed to close those unless it is in self defense right?

Yes, and that's precisely the reason why NATO will never kick Turkey out. As long as Turkey is in NATO, article 5 says that any attack on any other NATO country counts as an attack on Turkey as well. Therefore, if anyone attacks any NATO country, Turkey can claim self-defense and close the straits.

Basically, as long as Turkey is in NATO, no one who is at war with NATO can expect to be able to pass through those straits. This is an immense strategic advantage.

That's not a huge advantage. It is not paramount that Russia gets its Black Sea Fleet into the Mediterranean anyway, that wouldn't be defense. Turkey's military strength and other geographical advantages are more important.

[Insoboria]

turkey is a highly authoritarian place... i would kick them out of NATO, but then they might align with syria and russia

[New Werpland]

No, there actually are some crucial differences.

Kemalist Turkey was content with sabre-rattling with Greece, and pretty much only Greece, over its immediate border regions. The Kemalists were also perfectly aware of Turkey's place in the Western security system and did not try to challenge it.

Islamist Turkey, on the other hand, has gone completely bonkers with the imperial overreach. They constantly antagonize the US, they openly threaten the EU (something that Kemalist Turkey would never have done), and they engange in increasingly aggressive power projection in the Balkans and the Middle East, up to and including supporting jihadist terrorism.

Kemalist Turkey was content with Asia Minor and maybe everything that touched its borders. Islamist Turkey thinks she deserves a vast empire.



It is, first and foremost, the monster that Turkish society itself, with its paranoia, authoritarianism, xenophobia and revanchism, has created.



Yeah right, because this is what Russia would have done.

You've completely misunderstood what I was getting at.
For Greece it matters little if Turkey is ruled by Kemalists or Islamists.
It matters little because the territorial claims and non-recognition of Greeces sovereignty didn't change when the Islamists took power, but continued.

It was Kemalists who brought the two countries to the brink of war, because they vastly underestemated Greeces resolve and when they realised Greece would go all out to defend its territorial integrity(as they witnessed the response from Greece), the Turkish prime minister was quickly on the phone to Bill Clinton(US president at the time) imploring him to intervene. The phone call is even mentioned in his memoirs.

This time around with Greeces economic issues the Islamist Turks think they've got an opportunity to seize some islands. The objectives and claims for Turkey against Greece are the same now as they were then.


Ok so take away the protection of the USA and NATO, and you think Russia wouldn't have retaliated with military force? Go ask Georgia what happens when you attack Russian forces. Georgia didn't have the luxury of being a NATO member.

No islands are going to be seized. These statements are fluff not substance, Erdogan and the AKP have other interests.

Turkey is a regional power with a capable army, Georgia isn't. Russia would think twice before orchestrating a conflict as they did in Georgia in 2008.

[Braecland]

He can fuck right off.

[Baltenstein]

You've completely misunderstood what I was getting at.
For Greece it matters little if Turkey is ruled by Kemalists or Islamists.
It matters little because the territorial claims and non-recognition of Greeces sovereignty didn't change when the Islamists took power, but continued.

It was Kemalists who brought the two countries to the brink of war, because they vastly underestemated Greeces resolve and when they realised Greece would go all out to defend its territorial integrity(as they witnessed the response from Greece), the Turkish prime minister was quickly on the phone to Bill Clinton(US president at the time) imploring him to intervene. The phone call is even mentioned in his memoirs.

Wait, you think that the Simitis government of 1996 would have kicked Turkey's ass? Are you serious?

This time around with Greeces economic issues the Islamist Turks think they've got an opportunity to seize some islands. The objectives and claims for Turkey against Greece are the same now as they were then.

The difference between then and now is that Turkey is constantly alienating and threatening the West as whole. This could work in Greece's favor in terms of containment policy and foreign relations....if Greece had a government that knows what it's doing, which it most regretably does not.

Ok so take away the protection of the USA and NATO, and you think Russia wouldn't have retaliated with military force? Go ask Georgia what happens when you attack Russian forces. Georgia didn't have the luxury of being a NATO member.

You will find that there is a tiny difference between Georgia, a country of 4 million, and Turkey, a country of 80 million, m'kay? Besides, you're not up-to-date. Erdogan and Putin are buddie dictators again.
And no, I don't think that Russia would have retaliated with military force. Putin has shown much better cognitive abilities of where the boundaries of escalation lie than Erdogan.

Still, if I were Tsipras I would trade Imia for some form of aid from Erdogan. Nobody lives on Imia and the trade would actually help Greece by assuring Mitsotakis wins next time.

You are correct that a Mitsotakis victory would most certainly improve some of Greece's countless problems.

[Kergstan]

I hate so much Erdogan and AKP, that's all what i can say, i'm filled with hate for them.

[Kravanica]

Can someone resurrect Alexander the Great, please?

[Baltenstein]

Can someone resurrect Alexander the Great, please?

No more leaders called "Alex" for Greece please. The current one is a complete desaster.

[Mefpan]

Can someone resurrect Alexander the Great, please?

Fuck that guy. John III Sobieski. All the way, if you want to save nations under threat from Turkish despots.

[Kravanica]

Can someone resurrect Alexander the Great, please?

No more leaders called "Alex" for Greece please. The current one is a complete desaster.

They need the original Alex, methinks.

Hellenic Empire plz

[Kravanica]

Can someone resurrect Alexander the Great, please?

Fuck that guy. John III Sobieski. All the way, if you want to save nations under threat from Turkish despots.

"Fuck that guy"

His only mistake was sucking at actually ruling an empire.

He was great at conquests, though.

[Hurdergaryp]

Can someone resurrect Alexander the Great, please?

Fuck that guy. John III Sobieski. All the way, if you want to save nations under threat from Turkish despots.

Granted, it worked for Vienna.

[Baltenstein]

His only mistake was sucking at actually ruling an empire.

Small wonder, he croaked before he actually got any chance to try out the whole "ruling an empire" thing.

By the way, the map looks like Alexander really, really struggled to find the way to Bollywood.

[Saltair]

Fuck that guy. John III Sobieski. All the way, if you want to save nations under threat from Turkish despots.

"Fuck that guy"

His only mistake was sucking at actually ruling an empire.

He was great at conquests, though.

Haha Alexander couldn't even control the Bosporus

[Farnhamia]

His only mistake was sucking at actually ruling an empire.

Small wonder, he croaked before he actually got any chance to try out the whole "ruling an empire" thing.

By the way, the map looks like Alexander really, really struggled to find the way to Bollywood.

Idn't that a Dionne Warwick song? Do you know the way to Bollywood ...

[Kravanica]

His only mistake was sucking at actually ruling an empire.

Small wonder, he croaked before he actually got any chance to try out the whole "ruling an empire" thing.

By the way, the map looks like Alexander really, really struggled to find the way to Bollywood.

He did invade India, if I'm not mistaken. But his generals told him to chill out.

[Rio Cana]

If the Turks take over one of those islands then Greece can declare the 1923 treaty void and thus go back to these borders -

The pre-treaty borders of Greece - http://www.dcstamps.com/wp-content/uplo ... on-Map.gif

Greece has absolutely no means whatsoever of enforcing these borders.

When's Russia finally going to kick his ass? With Europe plagued by the Right and Trump loving Putin they pretty much have a free shot.

Putin, Trump and Erdogan are getting along just fine, and express how much they are friends with each other frequently.
I mean, the world can only benefit from a triple alliance of authoritarian chauvinist strongmen, right? There must be some positive historic examples for this.

I would think the Greeks would be able to take Eastern Thrace especially with allied help. However, the chunk of territory they use to control in Western Anatolia would be very difficult to gain and maintain. That would require total war with Turkey. The problem with Turkey (Anatolia) is its central location. If all there enemies decided to attack them from all four sides they would not last long.

Map which shows all there neighbors - http://www.nuclearmag.com/wp-content/up ... ey-Map.png

[Novus America]

No, there actually are some crucial differences.

Kemalist Turkey was content with sabre-rattling with Greece, and pretty much only Greece, over its immediate border regions. The Kemalists were also perfectly aware of Turkey's place in the Western security system and did not try to challenge it.

Islamist Turkey, on the other hand, has gone completely bonkers with the imperial overreach. They constantly antagonize the US, they openly threaten the EU (something that Kemalist Turkey would never have done), and they engange in increasingly aggressive power projection in the Balkans and the Middle East, up to and including supporting jihadist terrorism.

Kemalist Turkey was content with Asia Minor and maybe everything that touched its borders. Islamist Turkey thinks she deserves a vast empire.



It is, first and foremost, the monster that Turkish society itself, with its paranoia, authoritarianism, xenophobia and revanchism, has created.



Yeah right, because this is what Russia would have done.

You've completely misunderstood what I was getting at.
For Greece it matters little if Turkey is ruled by Kemalists or Islamists.
It matters little because the territorial claims and non-recognition of Greeces sovereignty didn't change when the Islamists took power, but continued.

It was Kemalists who brought the two countries to the brink of war, because they vastly underestemated Greeces resolve and when they realised Greece would go all out to defend its territorial integrity(as they witnessed the response from Greece), the Turkish prime minister was quickly on the phone to Bill Clinton(US president at the time) imploring him to intervene. The phone call is even mentioned in his memoirs.

This time around with Greeces economic issues the Islamist Turks think they've got an opportunity to seize some islands. The objectives and claims for Turkey against Greece are the same now as they were then.


Ok so take away the protection of the USA and NATO, and you think Russia wouldn't have retaliated with military force? Go ask Georgia what happens when you attack Russian forces. Georgia didn't have the luxury of being a NATO member.

What happened in Georgia is disputed as to who started it.
Georgia however is a tiny county with a tiny military the borders Russia directly. Turkey is completely different. The logistics and forces required to directly attack Turkey would be enormous.

Even without NATO Turkey can defend itself. It is not just a matter of sending in a few expedionary forces.

[Empire of Narnia]

Greece is Turkish. Greece was a former Turkish territory that is currently occupied by the false government set up by terrorist rebel groups that ousted control from the rightful Turkish government. Greece belongs to Turkey and Turkey should assume control over it once again according to international law.

[Ostroeuropa]

This is just nationalistic sabre rattling. There's no way the Islands are changing ownership and everyone knows it. The turks wont start that war, and neither will we. The news here is that the Turks are kept in line by absurd promises like this that they are fully aware are bollocks, but that probably indicate a general attitude they agree with.

(Speaking broadly. I'm aware there is opposition to erdogan, i'm talking about the governments plan to keep support, and the turks who support them.)