Turkish Foreign Minister claims Greek islands are Turkish

[Punikstan]

Just gonna leave this here.

Remove Erdogan and replace AKP with the Kemalists and HDP.

You can do it either by a) glorious Turkish Kemalist tradition of military coup (too late), or b) the CHP could think how to snatch away those rural votes from AKP.
Wishful thinking.

Or have Rojava annex Turkey through rigorous military aid from other nations. That would be the coolest way to get what I want.

[PaNTuXIa]

Turkey, a less mentally stable Russia.

Definitely. Russia and Turkey are both real-life examples of Authoritarian "Democracies."

[Punikstan]

Turkey, a less mentally stable Russia.

Definitely. Russia and Turkey are both real-life examples of Authoritarian "Democracies."

Gotta love dominant party systems. Nominally multi-party, de facto single-party.

[Novus America]

Just gonna leave this here.

Remove Erdogan and replace AKP with the Kemalists and HDP.

You can do it either by a) glorious Turkish Kemalist tradition of military coup (too late), or b) the CHP could think how to snatch away those rural votes from AKP.
Wishful thinking.

CHP is already being subsumed and being reduced to a AKP puppet. If they resist they are next on Erdogan's hit list after HDP. CHP is not a credible opposition anymore. Of course credible opposition will not be permitted anyway. Erdogan won, and Kemalism is dead. Now it is only a matter of time before CHP and HDP are destroyed either by reducing them to AKP puppets or outright banning them.

[New Werpland]

You can do it either by a) glorious Turkish Kemalist tradition of military coup (too late), or b) the CHP could think how to snatch away those rural votes from AKP.
Wishful thinking.

CHP is already being subsumed and reduced to a AKP puppet. CHP is not a credible opposition anymore. Erdogan won, and Kemalism is dead.

And where have you learned this?

[Sanctissima]

CHP is already being subsumed and reduced to a AKP puppet. CHP is not a credible opposition anymore. Erdogan won, and Kemalism is dead.

And where have you learned this?

Y'know that "coup" which happened a while back?

That's when Erdogan won. The military was Turkey's last hope, and Erdogan crushed it by instigating a fake coup and using it as an excuse to take out literally every major player who had enough power to oppose him. Hundreds of Kemalist military officers, jurists and public officials were imprisoned, dozens of news stations and media outlets were shut down, and literally thousands of civil servants and various government officials with Kemalist sympathies were either fired or had their positions indefinitely suspended.

What's left, politically speaking, are officials who are either pro-Erdogan and pro-AKP, or at least ideologically similar enough that they weren't purged. The rest are all gone.

Kemalism is dead, and Erdogan, a fucking Neo-Ottoman of all things, has won. Ataturk's legacy has been shat on and lit on fire.

[Herskerstad]

Exactly, mein Führer. First you destroy the enemies of the nation within, than you destroy the inferior vermin without. Well done.

Very well summed up

And people think AKP is the worst bunch in Turkish politics.

Nah, for me AKP is way too considerate of what the EU demands and wants. In my own opinions we need death penalty to PKK members and ISIS people, and the state should be run by a nationalist government. However I can't see why Europeans are ok with other european countries having more and more right wing parties elected, but if Turkey does it, we are facist???

You know, it's amazing to sit back and see the AKP monopolize power often at the expense of the opposition parties which you belong, violating every principle to the founder you admire and you defending their every move.

If that is the standard, then no wonder the CHP is in such a redundant state. People like you keep hammering nails into Attaturk's coffin with AKP hammers.

[Greater Slavic Union]

And? Why can't we change it?

With this logic, I may say "Well, Russia has dominated Ukraine, the Blatics, and Poland for centuries, so..."

We can, but outside of the US they are the only member with a large, somewhat credible army, and the have a vital strategic position. Have them leave NATO and go to Russia would be a major strategic reversal that would greatly weaken NATO. Also they are the main non Russian energy supply route to Europe.

We don't need NATO against Russia anymore...

Bit this is not the fight forum, so better not talk about NATO itself.

Anyways, their army is sorse than GB, France, Germany, and Italy's, according to GFP, so...

[Baltenstein]

Also they are the main non Russian energy supply route to Europe.

It seems that investing into energy autarky (through alternative, renewable energies) of the Western countries is becoming less and less a daydream of hippie tree-huggers and more and more a prime objective for national security.

[Insaeldor]

Sometimes I think the foreign policy of Turkey is based on a Hearts of Iron play through Erdoan has running.

[Novus America]

We can, but outside of the US they are the only member with a large, somewhat credible army, and the have a vital strategic position. Have them leave NATO and go to Russia would be a major strategic reversal that would greatly weaken NATO. Also they are the main non Russian energy supply route to Europe.

We don't need NATO against Russia anymore...

Bit this is not the fight forum, so better not talk about NATO itself.

Anyways, their army is sorse than GB, France, Germany, and Italy's, according to GFP, so...

The German and Italian Armies are complete jokes and exist on paper only. They have no actual combat capability. GB and France are just too small.

Point is yes we can force Turkey out of NATO but it will lead to a lot of problems. There is no easy solution here.

[Novus America]

Also they are the main non Russian energy supply route to Europe.

It seems that investing into energy autarky (through alternative, renewable energies) of the Western countries is becoming less and less a daydream of hippie tree-huggers and more and more a prime objective for national security.

Sure, except the only way to actually achieve it (nukes and more domestic oil production) are opposed by hippie tree huggers. Yes energy independence is key for national security. Too bad Europe takes two steps backwards for every one forward. At least the US is taking only one step back for every two forward.

[Sanctissima]

It seems that investing into energy autarky (through alternative, renewable energies) of the Western countries is becoming less and less a daydream of hippie tree-huggers and more and more a prime objective for national security.

Sure, except the only way to actually achieve it (nukes and more domestic oil production) are opposed by hippie tree huggers. Yes energy independence is key for national security. Too bad Europe takes two steps backwards for every one forward. At least the US is taking only one step back for every two forward.

To be fair, France has its shit together when it comes to energy consumption. The rest of the EU, not so much, but France does invest heavily in nuclear.

[Baltenstein]

It seems that investing into energy autarky (through alternative, renewable energies) of the Western countries is becoming less and less a daydream of hippie tree-huggers and more and more a prime objective for national security.

Sure, except the only way to actually achieve it (nukes and more domestic oil production) are opposed by hippie tree huggers. Yes energy independence is key for national security. Too bad Europe takes two steps backwards for every one forward. At least the US is taking only one step back for every two forward.

I agree that opposing nuclear energy is stupid - easily one of Merkel`s biggest mistakes during her tenure - but it`s hard to increase oil production when you don`t have any oil in the first place. Extending renewables, like the tree huggers are proposing, seems a more viable stategy in the long term.

[Novus America]

Sure, except the only way to actually achieve it (nukes and more domestic oil production) are opposed by hippie tree huggers. Yes energy independence is key for national security. Too bad Europe takes two steps backwards for every one forward. At least the US is taking only one step back for every two forward.

I agree that opposing nuclear energy is stupid - easily one of Merkel`s biggest mistakes during her tenure - but it`s hard to increase oil production when you don`t have any oil in the first place. Extending renewables, like the tree huggers are proposing, seems a more viable stategy in the long term.

Well "renewables" is a bit of a misnomer. No energy source is truly renewable. But yes, things like solar and wind do have to play a role. But require good weather and lots of land. Germany does not have great weather nor the needed millions of square km to spare. And are poor for baseloads.

For baseloads nuclear is the only viable option in most cases. Problem is people do not understand peaking power plants and base load power plants are different. Or that energy produced per land used also matters. Land is a finite resource too.

Things have gotten WORSE in Germany, gas use has increased thanks to Merkel's ignorance.

[Ereria]

Very well summed up



Nah, for me AKP is way too considerate of what the EU demands and wants. In my own opinions we need death penalty to PKK members and ISIS people, and the state should be run by a nationalist government. However I can't see why Europeans are ok with other european countries having more and more right wing parties elected, but if Turkey does it, we are facist???

You know, it's amazing to sit back and see the AKP monopolize power often at the expense of the opposition parties which you belong, violating every principle to the founder you admire and you defending their every move.

If that is the standard, then no wonder the CHP is in such a redundant state. People like you keep hammering nails into Attaturk's coffin with AKP hammers.

CHP is putting their own nails in the coffin. A lot of people that holds Mustafa Kemals ideals to heart, me included, can't vote for anyone except AKP, MHP and HEPAR. CHP has become a party that is so politically correct they have speeches with known PKK supporters. The Turkish people, like rest of the world, is becoming more and more right wing and CHP isn't a party that holds nationalism in their heart like the party Ataturk founded. Ataturk would turn in his grave if he knew what CHP has become, and I don't really like Erdogan either, but rather him than CHP. My ideal party is HEPAR which is the only party today carrying Ataturks ideals, but sadly they barely get any vote. Probably because it's relatively a new party, but I hope they will get enough votes to get into government one day.

What makes the turks like Erdogan is that he is standing upto European and American pressure to be their puppet state in middle east. There is a reason for so much backleash against Erdogan today and it's because if European and American leaders don't like a president in another country, they produce propaganda against them until their citizens agree with them. For that reason I sort of like Erdogan better because he pulled Turkey out of the illusion of being an EU member and is actually trying to make a stronger state. However I don't like how he uses religion to gain votes and we got better options like HEPAR and Osman Pamukoglu. For me whichever party that is a right wing gets my vote, and CHP in Ataturks time was a mix between nationalism and left wing ideology like modernism and equal rights. That's exactly what I want but sadly that CHP doesn't exist today.

[Baltenstein]

You know, it's amazing to sit back and see the AKP monopolize power often at the expense of the opposition parties which you belong, violating every principle to the founder you admire and you defending their every move.

If that is the standard, then no wonder the CHP is in such a redundant state. People like you keep hammering nails into Attaturk's coffin with AKP hammers.

CHP is putting their own nails in the coffin. A lot of people that holds Mustafa Kemals ideals to heart, me included, can't vote for anyone except AKP, MHP and HEPAR. CHP has become a party that is so politically correct they have speeches with known PKK supporters. The Turkish people, like rest of the world, is becoming more and more right wing and CHP isn't a party that holds nationalism in their heart like the party Ataturk founded. Ataturk would turn in his grave if he knew what CHP has become, and I don't really like Erdogan either, but rather him than CHP. My ideal party is HEPAR which is the only party today carrying Ataturks ideals, but sadly they barely get any vote. Probably because it's relatively a new party, but I hope they will get enough votes to get into government one day.

What makes the turks like Erdogan is that he is standing upto European and American pressure to be their puppet state in middle east. There is a reason for so much backleash against Erdogan today and it's because if European and American leaders don't like a president in another country, they produce propaganda against them until their citizens agree with them. For that reason I sort of like Erdogan better because he pulled Turkey out of the illusion of being an EU member and is actually trying to make a stronger state. However I don't like how he uses religion to gain votes and we got better options like HEPAR and Osman Pamukoglu. For me whichever party that is a right wing gets my vote, and CHP in Ataturks time was a mix between nationalism and left wing ideology like modernism and equal rights. That's exactly what I want but sadly that CHP doesn't exist today.

I`m reading all this while keeping in mind that you yourself are an immigrant in an European country who regularly whines about the natives there being too racist.

The irony is delicious.

[Greater Slavic Union]

We don't need NATO against Russia anymore...

Bit this is not the fight forum, so better not talk about NATO itself.

Anyways, their army is sorse than GB, France, Germany, and Italy's, according to GFP, so...

The German and Italian Armies are complete jokes and exist on paper only. They have no actual combat capability. GB and France are just too small.

Point is yes we can force Turkey out of NATO but it will lead to a lot of problems. There is no easy solution here.

Problems... such as?


Anyways, Italy and Germany have good armies actually, and Germany is building up its military once again.

France is not small at all. GB is, actually, but GB has always chosen the "Quality over Quantity" way

[Ereria]

CHP is putting their own nails in the coffin. A lot of people that holds Mustafa Kemals ideals to heart, me included, can't vote for anyone except AKP, MHP and HEPAR. CHP has become a party that is so politically correct they have speeches with known PKK supporters. The Turkish people, like rest of the world, is becoming more and more right wing and CHP isn't a party that holds nationalism in their heart like the party Ataturk founded. Ataturk would turn in his grave if he knew what CHP has become, and I don't really like Erdogan either, but rather him than CHP. My ideal party is HEPAR which is the only party today carrying Ataturks ideals, but sadly they barely get any vote. Probably because it's relatively a new party, but I hope they will get enough votes to get into government one day.

What makes the turks like Erdogan is that he is standing upto European and American pressure to be their puppet state in middle east. There is a reason for so much backleash against Erdogan today and it's because if European and American leaders don't like a president in another country, they produce propaganda against them until their citizens agree with them. For that reason I sort of like Erdogan better because he pulled Turkey out of the illusion of being an EU member and is actually trying to make a stronger state. However I don't like how he uses religion to gain votes and we got better options like HEPAR and Osman Pamukoglu. For me whichever party that is a right wing gets my vote, and CHP in Ataturks time was a mix between nationalism and left wing ideology like modernism and equal rights. That's exactly what I want but sadly that CHP doesn't exist today.

I`m reading all this while keeping in mind that you yourself are an immigrant in an European country who regularly whines about the natives there being too racist.

The irony is delicious.

Being racist isn't good, being against terrorism is good. I wan't norway to close it's borders until the ISIS situation is cleared. Im not saying to kill every kurd, im saying that terrorists should be dealt with harsly. Nationalism doesn't mean you should be a racist.

[Sanctissima]

The German and Italian Armies are complete jokes and exist on paper only. They have no actual combat capability. GB and France are just too small.

Point is yes we can force Turkey out of NATO but it will lead to a lot of problems. There is no easy solution here.

Problems... such as?


Anyways, Italy and Germany have good armies actually, and Germany is building up its military once again.

France is not small at all. GB is, actually, but GB has always chosen the "Quality over Quantity" way

I don't see how one could consider Germany's army to be anything other than pathetic. I mean for fuck's sakes, the German Army has barely 60,000 soldiers, many of which aren't even fully equipped with basic munitions. Fucking Poland has a larger and better-supplied army.

[New Werpland]

The German and Italian Armies are complete jokes and exist on paper only. They have no actual combat capability. GB and France are just too small.

Point is yes we can force Turkey out of NATO but it will lead to a lot of problems. There is no easy solution here.

Problems... such as?


Anyways, Italy and Germany have good armies actually, and Germany is building up its military once again.

France is not small at all. GB is, actually, but GB has always chosen the "Quality over Quantity" way

Turkey aligning with Russia on European issues. That would be a problem.

In regards to the CHP they are neither Erdogan's puppets nor politically correct sjws. The problem is that they try so hard to appease everyone that they end up being mediocre and without any real character. They will always get the coastal kemalist votes but problems come when they try to appeal to both minorities and nationalists. For instance when Kilicdaroglu (the CHP's Alevi president) made the 'wolf symbol,' a hand gesture associated with people who generally aren't fond of Alevis.

[Novus America]

The German and Italian Armies are complete jokes and exist on paper only. They have no actual combat capability. GB and France are just too small.

Point is yes we can force Turkey out of NATO but it will lead to a lot of problems. There is no easy solution here.

Problems... such as?


Anyways, Italy and Germany have good armies actually, and Germany is building up its military once again.

France is not small at all. GB is, actually, but GB has always chosen the "Quality over Quantity" way

The German army good?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... ent=safari

The Italian Army is no better. The (very slight) increase in German spending is not going to fix the problem. Rebuilding the German military (the Air Force is just a screwed) will take billions of Euros and decades.

The French Army is only 111,000 and also has equipment shortages. The US Marines alone are much larger and better equipped than the French Army and Air Force combined.

As far as the British go, well quantity has a quality all its own. You need quality AND sufficient quantity. Though the U.K. is going its own way, away from the EU and is more focusing on its Air Force and Navy. Which is fine, but somebody in Europe needs a big, well equipped army.

[Baltenstein]

What makes the turks like Erdogan is that he is standing upto European and American pressure to be their puppet state in middle east. There is a reason for so much backleash against Erdogan today and it's because if European and American leaders don't like a president in another country, they produce propaganda against them until their citizens agree with them. For that reason I sort of like Erdogan better because he pulled Turkey out of the illusion of being an EU member and is actually trying to make a stronger state. However I don't like how he uses religion to gain votes and we got better options like HEPAR and Osman Pamukoglu. For me whichever party that is a right wing gets my vote, and CHP in Ataturks time was a mix between nationalism and left wing ideology like modernism and equal rights. That's exactly what I want but sadly that CHP doesn't exist today.

I`m gonna elaborate a bit further on that one. The idea that the US and Europe want to "keep Turkey down" is laughable. For almost 10 years straight, Erdogan was showered with praise by almost all Western media for modernizing his country and improving its economy. He was cited as a leader who would make Turkey more transparent and democratic than the old Kemalist nomenclatura. As the man who made peace with the Kurds possible. As the prime example of how Islam and modern democracy can coexist. I remember reading articles that Turkey would have been a better addition to the EU than the corrupt and constantly crisis-ridden countries of SE Europe. All warnings on how Erdogan is an Islamist and a despot-in-the-making were swept aside as backwards, Islamophobic racism by the mainstream media.
The Europeans even applied heavy pressure on the Greek Cypriots in 2004 and urged them to vote for reunification with Northern Cyprus, in order to make Turkey's EU accession easier. Turkey's constant violations of Greek airspace and waters were almost always ignored by the rest of Europe.

The first cracks appeared when the Turkish state used massive violence in order to supress the Gezi Park protests in 2013. There, the European media and governments began to criticize. Guess what? They also do that when "white, Christian" countries like Russia or - to a lesser extent - Hungary or Poland are behaving like despots. They also did it towards Berlusconi and Italy, a core EU member. It has nothing to do with "keeping Turkey and Islam down".
Turkish-European relations became worse when it became apparent that Turkey was establishing mini-AKPs in countries like Germany or the Netherlands with large Turkish communities - parties with ultraconservative and anti-Western agendas. Erdogan actively encouraging Turks in Germany to not integrate and telling them that they will always be Turks first, Germans later, also did not help.
Relations became really bad when Turkey started acting as an agent of chaos in its neighbor countries. In order to achieve his megalomaniac delusion of having his own neo-Ottoman sphere of influence, Erdogan did not even shy down from working with ISIS. Around the same time, he himself destroyed the peace process with the Kurds (something you will no doubt applaud him for). When Erdogan switched his office from prime minister to president and suddenly demanded that Turkey clearly needs a presidential system - something that apparently didn't occure to him during all his years as Prime Minister - it became clear that Erdogan was actively trying to become Turkey's Supreme Ruler for life.
Things became farcical when Erdogan actually started asking that European governments should ban any criticism or satire of him inside their own countries. He also managed to fuck up relations with Russia around the same time - clearly the West is to blame for that too. Or maybe Russia is also racist and wants to keep Turkey and Islam down. Turkey`s opinion on that seems to constantly change, so I`m not sure.

Since the quagmire of a coup that happened this year, Erdogan has dropped the last pretenses of not being a dictator and has pretty much established an one-man-regime. Due to the Turkish economy`s rapid decline - a Western plot too, no doubt - he has considerably increased his hostility towards European countries, even saying that Turkey's current borders are too small and it needs more land (from its neighbors). At the same time, virtually every single public comment of the Turkish government and its various subservient media on the European countries has consisted of nothing but insults, threats, accusations of terrorism (with zero evidence) or all of that together. That Turkey things the bad, mean Europeans are being too disrepectful and hurting Turkey's precious feelings is kinda cute in that regard.
Let me ask: How do you think Western public opinion would react if a European leader would start behaving that way? If Merkel suddenly demanded that Germany must retake land from its neighbors, that all criticism of Germany and herself must be outlawed everywhere, and also that every other country is an enemy of Germany and part of an anti-German plot? Would people be cool with it? Of course not, so why should be cool with Erdogan?

Nobody is asking you to become a Western puppet. Merely that you stop indulging in neo-imperialist megalomania and get your act together.

[Ereria]

What makes the turks like Erdogan is that he is standing upto European and American pressure to be their puppet state in middle east. There is a reason for so much backleash against Erdogan today and it's because if European and American leaders don't like a president in another country, they produce propaganda against them until their citizens agree with them. For that reason I sort of like Erdogan better because he pulled Turkey out of the illusion of being an EU member and is actually trying to make a stronger state. However I don't like how he uses religion to gain votes and we got better options like HEPAR and Osman Pamukoglu. For me whichever party that is a right wing gets my vote, and CHP in Ataturks time was a mix between nationalism and left wing ideology like modernism and equal rights. That's exactly what I want but sadly that CHP doesn't exist today.

I`m gonna elaborate a bit further on that one. The idea that the US and Europe want to "keep Turkey down" is laughable. For almost 10 years straight, Erdogan was showered with praise by almost all Western media for modernizing his country and improving its economy. He was cited as a leader who would make Turkey more transparent and democratic than the old Kemalist nomenclatura. As the man who made peace with the Kurds possible. As the prime example of how Islam and modern democracy can coexist. I remember reading articles that Turkey would have been a better addition to the EU than the corrupt and constantly crisis-ridden countries of SE Europe. All warnings on how Erdogan is an Islamist and a despot-in-the-making were swept aside as backwards, Islamophobic racism by the mainstream media.
The Europeans even applied heavy pressure on the Greek Cypriots in 2004 and urged them to vote for reunification with Northern Cyprus, in order to make Turkey's EU accession easier. Turkey's constant violations of Greek airspace and waters were almost always ignored by the rest of Europe.
The first cracks appeared when the Turkish state used massive violence in order to supress the Gezi Park protests in 2013. There, the European media and governments began to criticize. Guess what? They also do that when "white, Christian" countries like Russia or - to a lesser extent - Hungary or Poland are behaving like despots. They also did it towards Berlusconi and Italy, a core EU member. It has nothing to do with "keeping Turkey and Islam down".
Turkish-European relations became worse when it became apparent that Turkey was establishing mini-AKPs in countries like Germany or the Netherlands with large Turkish communities - parties with ultraconservative and anti-Western agendas. Erdogan actively encouraging Turks in Germany to not integrate and telling them that they will always be Turks first, Germans later, also did not help.
Relations became really bad when Turkey started acting as an agent of chaos in its neighbor countries. In order to achieve his megalomaniac delusion of having his own neo-Ottoman sphere of influence, Erdogan did not even shy down from working with ISIS. Around the same time, he himself destroyed the peace process with the Kurds (something you will no doubt applaud him for). When Erdogan switched his office from prime minister to president and suddenly demanded that Turkey clearly needs a presidential system - something that apparently didn't occure to him during all his years as Prime Minister - it became clear that Erdogan was actively trying to become Turkey's Supreme Ruler for life.
Things became farcical when Erdogan actually started asking that European governments should ban any criticism or satire of him inside their own countries. He also managed to fuck up relations with Russia around the same time - clearly the West is to blame for that too. Or maybe Russia is also racist and wants to keep Turkey and Islam down. Turkey`s opinion on that seems to constantly change, so I`m not sure.
Since the quagmire of a coup that happened this year, Erdogan has dropped the last pretenses of not being a dictator and has pretty much established an one-man-regime. Due to the Turkish economy`s rapid decline - a Western plot too, no doubt - he has considerably increased his hostility towards European countries, even saying that Turkey's current borders are too small and it needs more land (from its neighbors). At the same time, virtually every single public comment of the Turkish government and its various subservient media on the European countries has consisted of nothing but insults, threats, accusations of terrorism (with zero evidence) or all of that together. That Turkey things the bad, mean Europeans are being too disrepectful and hurting Turkey's precious feelings is kinda cute in that regard.
Let me ask: How do you think Western public opinion would react if a European leader would start behaving that way? If Merkel suddenly demanded that Germany must retake land from its neighbors, that all criticism of Germany and herself must be outlawed everywhere, and also that every other country is an enemy of Germany and part of an anti-German plot? Would people be cool with it? Of course not, so why should be cool with Erdogan?
Nobody is asking you to become a Western puppet. Merely that you stop indulging in neo-imperialist megalomania and get your act together.

Use some spacing man im not reading all that.

[Baltenstein]

Better now?