Turkish Foreign Minister claims Greek islands are Turkish

[Genivaria]

Anyone want to chip in for the gift basket I'm sending to Erdogan?

It's going to include:

• A jar of Kalamata olives
• A bottle of ouzo
• A book of Lord Byron's poetry
• Never on Sunday
  My Big Fat Greek Wedding
  The Guns of Navarone
  Zorba the Greek
  The 300 Spartans
  300
  Alexander the Great
  Alexander
  Lawrence of Arabia
  40,000 Horsemen
  The Lighthorsemen
• (Image)
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All to be delivered in a wooden horse.

The painting of the Cossacks writing to the Sultan.

A bag of roaches.

All the Galaxy S7 phones recalled.

The Young Turks.

The old Turks too.

Photographs of the Armenian Genocide.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

The painting of the Cossacks writing to the Sultan.

A bag of roaches.

All the Galaxy S7 phones recalled.

The Young Turks.

The old Turks too.

Photographs of the Armenian Genocide.

Sex toys.

[The Canadian North-West]

Photographs of the Armenian Genocide.

Sex toys.

A Greek nationalist poem to do with taking back Constantinople.

I think that's a thing, right?

I'm pretty sure I heard that that was a thing once.

[Arridian Islands]

I'm sick of Turkey. The country should be disbanded and split into several countries in my opinion.

[The Two Jerseys]

How the hell did I forget that?

I must be getting old...

But ... wouldn't he just say, "Yeah, that's right, not Constantinople"?

Probably.

Make it a copy of Yanni's Live at the Acropolis instead.

Oh, and we'll also throw in autographed photos of Telly Savalas and Pete Sampras.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

But ... wouldn't he just say, "Yeah, that's right, not Constantinople"?

Probably.

Make it a copy of Yanni's Live at the Acropolis instead.

Oh, and we'll also throw in autographed photos of Telly Savalas and Pete Sampras.

Toss in some Lesbos history lessons.

[Defender of Democracy]

This is going to make things interesting. ..the Greek courts have decided not to extradite the three Turkish soldiers who escaped on a Turkish army blackhawk to Greece after the coup failed. And why would you extradite someone back to a place that's going to torture them?
These three men may have one day been enemy combatants against the country, but at the end of the day they sought asylum and their human rights should be protected. Even if it pisses off the wannabe Sultan and his Islamist cult.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/greek-court ... 1480957706

[Uxupox]

This is going to make things interesting. ..the Greek courts have decided not to extradite the three Turkish soldiers who escaped on a Turkish army blackhawk to Greece after the coup failed. And why would you extradite someone back to a place that's going to torture them?
These three men may have one day been enemy combatants against the country, but at the end of the day they sought asylum and their human rights should be protected. Even if it pisses off the wannabe Sultan and his Islamist cult.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/greek-court ... 1480957706

Terrible decision.

[Kravanica]

What's funny is that I'm pretty sure nearly half of Turkey's land, they own illegally. They broke the Treaty of Sevres. Took Armenian, Greek, Kurdish, British, French, and even Georgian lands.

Technically that was a treaty made with the Ottoman's and you know how easy it is for one government to disavow previous governments as illegitimate.

Fuck Turkey. They're long overdue for a spanking. Reduce them to their Seljuk borders and take back Constantinople.

[New Werpland]

This is going to make things interesting. ..the Greek courts have decided not to extradite the three Turkish soldiers who escaped on a Turkish army blackhawk to Greece after the coup failed. And why would you extradite someone back to a place that's going to torture them?
These three men may have one day been enemy combatants against the country, but at the end of the day they sought asylum and their human rights should be protected. Even if it pisses off the wannabe Sultan and his Islamist cult.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/greek-court ... 1480957706

I think you've mixed up your Turks. Those soldiers most likely are members of an Islamist cult.

IIRC they got to Greece after trying to land on Ocalan's prison island, which while somewhat unrelated does make it more strange.

[Victoriala II]

Just siege and sever Turkey and keep their rump in Anatolia already

[Defender of Democracy]

This is going to make things interesting. ..the Greek courts have decided not to extradite the three Turkish soldiers who escaped on a Turkish army blackhawk to Greece after the coup failed. And why would you extradite someone back to a place that's going to torture them?
These three men may have one day been enemy combatants against the country, but at the end of the day they sought asylum and their human rights should be protected. Even if it pisses off the wannabe Sultan and his Islamist cult.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/greek-court ... 1480957706

I think you've mixed up your Turks. Those soldiers most likely are members of an Islamist cult.

IIRC they got to Greece after trying to land on Ocalan's prison island, which while somewhat unrelated does make it more strange.

Turkey asked for their extradition, but failed to supply adequate evidence proving they were part of the coup plot. I believe these guys actually flew to Greece before the coup was put down.

Maybe Erdogan and his cohorts are more cunning then given credit for? Maybe these guys were sent in order to create tensions and pretexts for Turkey.
We've seen their rhetoric escalate lately. It used to be that certain islands were grey zones with an undetermined status according to Ankara now they are outright making claims.
They understand one language, like all bullies.

[Defender of Democracy]

Just siege and sever Turkey and keep their rump in Anatolia already

A start would be those factories that western manufacturing corporations opened in Turkey to exploit its cheap labor on the border of the EU common market, closing down and moving to western or pro western countries.
Plenty of countries in Eastern Europe and the Balkans including Greece that could do with new jobs and industries.

Because yet again actions speak louder then words, and yet again the Westeen countries have taken a big shit in someone else's backyard, and won't have to clean up the mess. Why do you think Turkey is threatening to open its borders? Because the West has been dicking it about for years over joining the EU.

Those western companies will still profit from Turkeys cheap labor.

Maybe when the next wave of illegals comes Greece should be ready with buses and send them all to the northern borders?
It's not like weak countries like Albania or FYROM will be able to do anything to stop hundreds of thousands of people crossing over and knocking their tiny little fences down. Unless they want to open fire across the border which would be a bad idea when your neighbor whose going through its worst economic crisis is still stronger and can whoop your ass.

The Austrian FM was saying Europe can leave Greece and Italy to deal with the situation alone.
He's right. Germany should take a hefty burden because its Merkels foolish words that sparked a bigger surge in people coming. These people don't want to be in Greece or Italy they want to go to Germany and the UK. So unless Germany and everyone else moaning about the plight of these economic illegal migrants want to take them all in they should stop their complaining and start helping to stop the flow of people, and prepare to help turn back the flow when Turkey opens its borders and its security forces start shipping g people across.

EU borders or only when it's convenient for those further north and west?

[Baltenstein]

A start would be those factories that western manufacturing corporations opened in Turkey to exploit its cheap labor on the border of the EU common market, closing down and moving to western or pro western countries.

Western companies and investors are already leaving Turkey en masse, thanks to Erdogan's actions.

http://www.reuters.com/article/turkey-s ... SL8N1A305A

Plenty of countries in Eastern Europe and the Balkans including Greece that could do with new jobs and industries.

You know full well that the reason why more people aren't investing in Greece is the Greek state's notorious corruption and bureaucracy.

It's not like weak countries like Albania or FYROM will be able to do anything to stop hundreds of thousands of people crossing over and knocking their tiny little fences down. Unless they want to open fire across the border which would be a bad idea when your neighbor whose going through its worst economic crisis is still stronger and can whoop your ass.

You're an ANEL or Golden Dawn supporter, aren't you?

FYROM has shown to be perfectly capable of sealing their borders. Why do you think there is such an immigrant congestion at Eidomeni? And the Macedonians have been busy increasing their border fortification in the past year. The scenario you suggest - try to sent all the immigrants northwards - would spectacularly explode in Greece's face.
Your suggestion that Greece would declare war on FYROM over its border security is too laughable to comment any further.

So unless Germany and everyone else moaning about the plight of these economic illegal migrants want to take them all in they should stop their complaining and start helping to stop the flow of people, and prepare to help turn back the flow when Turkey opens its borders and its security forces start shipping g people across.

While Germany, France and the others can undoubtly do more to secure Greece's borders, it's first and foremost the Greek government's job to do this.

EU borders or only when it's convenient for those further north and west?

You're complainting about lack of common EU solidarity when you yourself show none. All I see is empty bravado on how Greece will kick it's neighbors' asses or whatever.

[Defender of Democracy]

A start would be those factories that western manufacturing corporations opened in Turkey to exploit its cheap labor on the border of the EU common market, closing down and moving to western or pro western countries.

Western companies and investors are already leaving Turkey en masse, thanks to Erdogan's
actions.

Plenty of countries in Eastern Europe and the Balkans including Greece that could do with new jobs and industries.

You know full well that the reason why more people aren't investing in Greece is the Greek state's notorious corruption and bureaucracy.

Hasn't stopped Microsoft and HP investing.
But yes you are right(not that I said anything to the contrary of your point).

It's not like weak countries like Albania or FYROM will be able to do anything to stop hundreds of thousands of people crossing over and knocking their tiny little fences down. Unless they want to open fire across the border which would be a bad idea when your neighbor whose going through its worst economic crisis is still stronger and can whoop your ass.

You're an ANEL or Golden Dawn supporter, aren't you?
[/quote]
I'm your guardian angel.
And no I'm not a golden dawn supporter.
I'm a supporter of common sense and what's in the national interest. Golden Dawn(and Syriza and the like) are not in the national interest.

FYROM has shown to be perfectly capable of sealing their borders. Why do you think there is such an immigrant congestion at Eidomeni? And the Macedonians have been busy increasing their border fortification in the past year. The scenario you suggest - try to sent all the immigrants northwards - would spectacularly explode in Greece's face.
Your suggestion that Greece would declare war on FYROM over its border security is too laughable to comment any further.

Problem with this is that I never made that suggestion.
I suggested that their limited security forces, would be unable to stop the tide of people, if Turkey followed through with its threats.
I suggested the only way they'd be able to stop the people would be with bullets. Now seeing as most of those people would be on the Greek side of the border, how do you think the Greek military would respond to a hostile country firing bullets across its border into its territory? And a non hostile country, before you say anything, does not claim the territory of its neighbors(among other things)

So unless Germany and everyone else moaning about the plight of these economic illegal migrants want to take them all in they should stop their complaining and start helping to stop the flow of people, and prepare to help turn back the flow when Turkey opens its borders and its security forces start shipping g people across.

While Germany, France and the others can undoubtly do more to secure Greece's borders, it's first and foremost the Greek government's job to do this. [/quote]

So Germany can foolishly summon hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants by publicly stating they will take in 800,000?
The 60,000 odd illegals in Greece, why doesn't Merkel take them in?
Greece didn't ask for these people, she did.

EU borders or only when it's convenient for those further north and west?

You're complainting about lack of common EU solidarity when you yourself show none. All I see is empty bravado on how Greece will kick it's neighbors' asses or whatever.[/quote]
[/quote]

Lol.
I'm complaining about problems created in regions by countries that aren't in those regions who then lecture those countries on how they are wrong, doing the wrong thing, not doing enough etc.

I couldn't give a toss about the EU and wish Greece has defaulted long ago, and chosen to leave like the British people have. Better off that way then being used as the scapegoat to bail out the big European banks of Germany and France etc. Even the Germans(of course after they've done their dirty deed), admit most of the money went to their banks. But I'm sure you're a bailout expert, whose going to explain how after being "bailed out" the country's debt went from just over 100% to nearly 200%.

[Baltenstein]

I suggested the only way they'd be able to stop the people would be with bullets. Now seeing as most of those people would be on the Greek side of the border, how do you think the Greek military would respond to a hostile country firing bullets across its border into its territory?

How I think it would react? I think Kammenos would say some super-tough things on television, then immediately back down when things get serious.
In any case, my point is that the Macedonians are much, much more capable of sealing and securing their border - because it is 100 % land - than Greece is capable of securing her borders.
So the best course of action on this for Greece is international cooperation. Not mimicking Erdogan's thug tactics and threatening neighbors with sending immigration waves.
And let's pretend that the Macedonians actually do become that desperate and start firing bullets at the immigrants (something that Turkey is already doing at the Turkish-Syrian border). Do you really, really believe that public opinion will say "Clearly Greece must shoot back and force FYROM to take in uncontrolled immigration flows"? I don't think so.

And a non hostile country, before you say anything, does not claim the territory of its neighbors

Yes, only the name copyright which of course is much better.
Greece's and FYROM's relations with each other are marked by the same immature "everything belongs to me" attitude that is typical for the Balkans. The Macedonian side with their fantasy notions about Alexander the Great, the Greek side with the belief that you can copyright other countries' names.

So Germany can foolishly summon hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants by publicly stating they will take in 800,000?
The 60,000 odd illegals in Greece, why doesn't Merkel take them in?

Germany already took in more than a million immigrants/refugees in 2015 alone. By your logic the Germans could completely seal their borders too and refuse any further cooperation.

But I'm sure you're a bailout expert, whose going to explain how after being "bailed out" the country's debt went from just over 100% to nearly 200%.

Lol, yeah right. "Just over 100 %". You know that the numbers of the Karamanlis administration were extremely manipulated, right? And that this was the reason why the whole world stopped lending to Greece? Greece is currently excluded from the world markets because there is absolutely nobody, other than the EU, who is willing to lend to Greece on sane interests rates. That much is simply a fact.
Now, either there is a global conspiracy to strip Greece of its independence, or the Greek state and the Greek governments simply fucked up. Which one is true?

I couldn't give a toss about the EU and wish Greece has defaulted long ago, and chosen to leave like the British people have.

So you're a Drachme fan, eh? Please enlighten me which political movement you think will restore Greece's independece. Will it be LAE? Perhaps Zoe Konstantopoulou? Or Maybe even Artemis Sorras?
After all, we have plenty of clowns to choose from.

[Defender of Democracy]

I suggested the only way they'd be able to stop the people would be with bullets. Now seeing as most of those people would be on the Greek side of the border, how do you think the Greek military would respond to a hostile country firing bullets across its border into its territory?

How I think it would react? I think Kammenos would say some super-tough things on television, then immediately back down when things get serious.
In any case, my point is that the Macedonians are much, much more capable of sealing and securing their border - because it is 100 % land - than Greece is capable of securing her borders.
So the best course of action on this for Greece is international cooperation. Not mimicking Erdogan's thug tactics and threatening neighbors with sending immigration waves.
And let's pretend that the Macedonians actually do become that desperate and start firing bullets at the immigrants (something that Turkey is already doing at the Turkish-Syrian border). Do you really, really believe that public opinion will say "Clearly Greece must shoot back and force FYROM to take in uncontrolled immigration flows"? I don't think so.

lol, It's funny how you take what someone says, and run wild with your imagination and try put words in peoples mouths.
Who are the Macedonians? I don't know of any Macedonians north of the Greek border..
You, I assume(perhaps foolishly) that you want a mature, civil debate..but you continue to try and provoke me with that, and other things, in some poor attempt at trolling me, probably in the belief that I'm some hot head whose going to explode and you get your rocks off in playing your sad part in having someones posts deleted or perhaps suspended or banned. I've tried to be polite to you.

And a non hostile country, before you say anything, does not claim the territory of its neighbors

Yes, only the name copyright which of course is much better.
Greece's and FYROM's relations with each other are marked by the same immature "everything belongs to me" attitude that is typical for the Balkans. The Macedonian side with their fantasy notions about Alexander the Great, the Greek side with the belief that you can copyright other countries' names. [/quote]

Yeh, because it's just about a name. Here we go, another one who thinks he's an expert because he read two-three articles. He's going to tell us all about it. Because hey, it's the Balkans, and everyone's an expert on the Balkans..well, except those from there of course(according to the experts naturally).

So Germany can foolishly summon hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants by publicly stating they will take in 800,000?
The 60,000 odd illegals in Greece, why doesn't Merkel take them in?

Germany already took in more than a million immigrants/refugees in 2015 alone. By your logic the Germans could completely seal their borders too and refuse any further cooperation. [/quote]

Instead of telling the world they'll take a million people, they should have got together with the rest of the EU, particularly the periphery countries like Greece and Italy, and sealed the borders.
If you think the majority of people coming are refugees you need your head examined.

The majority of these people are not genuine refugees. People keep referring to them as "Syrian refugees", most of them aren't even from Syria let alone refugees.
Genuine refugees should be taken in, shown compassion. But you can't have hundreds of thousands of people flooding in across borders virtually uncontrolled, and much of which was instigated by foolish remarks from leaders of other countries.
There needs to be an orderly process. That not only relieves countries of the burden of having to look after tens of thousands of illegal arrivals, but also ensures the safety of all of them, particularly the refugees, and ensures that legitimate refugees are taken care of, and those who are just economic migrants are sent back.
When is Europe going to learn to work together for the greater good of Europe and not the good of certain states only? Never.

There should have been an EU border force/customs operation operating in the Mediterranean particularly long ago, with teeth, unlike FRONTEX which got threatened with shoot downs by Turkey while in Greek territory and the EU stayed silent.

But I'm sure you're a bailout expert, whose going to explain how after being "bailed out" the country's debt went from just over 100% to nearly 200%.

Lol, yeah right. "Just over 100 %". You know that the numbers of the Karamanlis administration were extremely manipulated, right? And that this was the reason why the whole world stopped lending to Greece? Greece is currently excluded from the world markets because there is absolutely nobody, other than the EU, who is willing to lend to Greece on sane interests rates. That much is simply a fact.
Now, either there is a global conspiracy to strip Greece of its independence, or the Greek state and the Greek governments simply fucked up. Which one is true?[/quote]

LOL, yeh right. Because when you get bailed out, your debt increases. That makes a lot of sense. There was even a small "hair cut". But the debt stayed up. Yeh, bail outs, German style.
But hey, ignore the Germans who them selves are saying they screwed Greece over, and that the majority of funds went directly to their banks and not Greece. Be selective in what you believe from the Germans. Believe the negativity about Greece, but don't believe the Germans when they tell you they've done the dirty on another country(again..).

If you want to talk about conspiracy theories, be my guest, but I'm not interested.

I couldn't give a toss about the EU and wish Greece has defaulted long ago, and chosen to leave like the British people have.

So you're a Drachme fan, eh? Please enlighten me which political movement you think will restore Greece's independece. Will it be LAE? Perhaps Zoe Konstantopoulou? Or Maybe even Artemis Sorras?
After all, we have plenty of clowns to choose from.[/quote]

LOL, Sorras..how did I know you'll drop his name. Get serious or nice chatting to you.

[Jochizyd Republic]

Just siege and sever Turkey and keep their rump in Anatolia already

I'm sick of Turkey. The country should be disbanded and split into several countries in my opinion.

Fuck Turkey. They're long overdue for a spanking. Reduce them to their Seljuk borders and take back Constantinople.

Based Turks cause mass salt again. Bless.

[Baltenstein]

lol, It's funny how you take what someone says, and run wild with your imagination and try put words in peoples mouths.
Who are the Macedonians? I don't know of any Macedonians north of the Greek border..
You, I assume(perhaps foolishly) that you want a mature, civil debate..but you continue to try and provoke me with that, and other things, in some poor attempt at trolling me, probably in the belief that I'm some hot head whose going to explode and you get your rocks off in playing your sad part in having someones posts deleted or perhaps suspended or banned. I've tried to be polite to you.

I had to think a bit to figure out what exactly you're referring to by "poor attempt at trolling", "provoking", "going to explode" etc. Probably the mention of the word "Macedonians". This is how the overwhelming majority of the world (minus Western Europe, Australia, Mexico and some others) are calling the citizens of said country:

http://i.imgur.com/zFqnQuH.png

Since this here is an international forum, it's the word I'm going to use so that others know what I'm talking about. I'm not going to use words like "FYROMs" or "Skopianoi". If that fact alone is triggering you, you should consider visiting Greek-speaking forums only.

Yeh, because it's just about a name. Here we go, another one who thinks he's an expert because he read two-three articles. He's going to tell us all about it. Because hey, it's the Balkans, and everyone's an expert on the Balkans..well, except those from there of course(according to the experts naturally).

You're not the only Greek here, so cut your wisecracking.

Instead of telling the world they'll take a million people, they should have got together with the rest of the EU, particularly the periphery countries like Greece and Italy, and sealed the borders.
If you think the majority of people coming are refugees you need your head examined.

The majority of these people are not genuine refugees. People keep referring to them as "Syrian refugees", most of them aren't even from Syria let alone refugees.
Genuine refugees should be taken in, shown compassion. But you can't have hundreds of thousands of people flooding in across borders virtually uncontrolled, and much of which was instigated by foolish remarks from leaders of other countries.
There needs to be an orderly process. That not only relieves countries of the burden of having to look after tens of thousands of illegal arrivals, but also ensures the safety of all of them, particularly the refugees, and ensures that legitimate refugees are taken care of, and those who are just economic migrants are sent back.

Now there's something we can agree on. But Greece or Italy are not going to achieve this course of events by threatening to sent busses full of immigrants northwards. It will only happen through cooperation.
The alternative is that every European country acts like Hungary, builds a wall on heir southern border and says that everyting to the South is not their problem.

There should have been an EU border force/customs operation operating in the Mediterranean particularly long ago, with teeth, unlike FRONTEX which got threatened with shoot downs by Turkey while in Greek territory and the EU stayed silent.

If you cared reading my posts here and in other threads, this is what I said repeatedly.

But I'm sure you're a bailout expert, whose going to explain how after being "bailed out" the country's debt went from just over 100% to nearly 200%.

LOL, yeh right. Because when you get bailed out, your debt increases.

Are you acually claiming that the debt-to-GDP ratio that was officially stated by Karamanlis was genuine? They have admitted themselves that the numbers were cooked. Right before the bailout, it wasn't "just over 100 %" but much, much higher.

That makes a lot of sense. There was even a small "hair cut". But the debt stayed up. Yeh, bail outs, German style.
But hey, ignore the Germans who them selves are saying they screwed Greece over, and that the majority of funds went directly to their banks and not Greece. Be selective in what you believe from the Germans. Believe the negativity about Greece, but don't believe the Germans when they tell you they've done the dirty on another country(again..).

Yeah right "the Germans" are saying that and that. It's that easy.
Clearly there were so many alternatives to the bailout. Greece could have told the EU that the debt is not going to be paid, period. Their fault for lending. What next? Greece could have borrowed money without austerity from Russia, or China, or...
The thing which I said and you ignored, so I'll repeat it again: The whole world is refusing to lend to Greece over it's finances shenanigans right now. China won't lend Greece, Russia won't lend Greece (and Cyprus too, as Christofias found out the hard way), India won't etc. Why do you think Greece is cut off from the international markets? Some kind of trick where everybody has secretly agreed that Greece's debt isn't real, but they'll pretend it is?
Nobody wants to lend to Greece other than the EU, on EU conditions. So either it will be those conditions, or the Greek state manages to cover its expenses completely by itself. There's no "we get money from others and decide ourselves how to spend it" option.

LOL, Sorras..how did I know you'll drop his name. Get serious or nice chatting to you.

If you're are in favor of EU exit and a national currency, at least you're consistent. Personally, I'd think it would be catastrophic - as other countries around the world with hyperinflationed paper money show - but at least it's a consistent position.

The mindset I detest the most is that of the current Syriza-ANEL followers, who they think they can somehow tell the Europeans to fuck off and get free money from them at the same time.

[Australian rePublic]

Friken' Turks!

[Defender of Democracy]

lol, It's funny how you take what someone says, and run wild with your imagination and try put words in peoples mouths.
Who are the Macedonians? I don't know of any Macedonians north of the Greek border..
You, I assume(perhaps foolishly) that you want a mature, civil debate..but you continue to try and provoke me with that, and other things, in some poor attempt at trolling me, probably in the belief that I'm some hot head whose going to explode and you get your rocks off in playing your sad part in having someones posts deleted or perhaps suspended or banned. I've tried to be polite to you.

I had to think a bit to figure out what exactly you're referring to by "poor attempt at trolling", "provoking", "going to explode" etc. Probably the mention of the word "Macedonians". This is how the overwhelming majority of the world (minus Western Europe, Australia, Mexico and some others) are calling the citizens of said country:

http://i.imgur.com/zFqnQuH.png

Since this here is an international forum, it's the word I'm going to use so that others know what I'm talking about. I'm not going to use words like "FYROMs" or "Skopianoi". If that fact alone is triggering you, you should consider visiting Greek-speaking forums only.

When I'm triggered you'll know.

Yeh, because it's just about a name. Here we go, another one who thinks he's an expert because he read two-three articles. He's going to tell us all about it. Because hey, it's the Balkans, and everyone's an expert on the Balkans..well, except those from there of course(according to the experts naturally).

You're not the only Greek here, so cut your wisecracking.

[/quote]

You probably voted Syriza

Instead of telling the world they'll take a million people, they should have got together with the rest of the EU, particularly the periphery countries like Greece and Italy, and sealed the borders.
If you think the majority of people coming are refugees you need your head examined.

The majority of these people are not genuine refugees. People keep referring to them as "Syrian refugees", most of them aren't even from Syria let alone refugees.
Genuine refugees should be taken in, shown compassion. But you can't have hundreds of thousands of people flooding in across borders virtually uncontrolled, and much of which was instigated by foolish remarks from leaders of other countries.
There needs to be an orderly process. That not only relieves countries of the burden of having to look after tens of thousands of illegal arrivals, but also ensures the safety of all of them, particularly the refugees, and ensures that legitimate refugees are taken care of, and those who are just economic migrants are sent back.

Now there's something we can agree on. But Greece or Italy are not going to achieve this course of events by threatening to sent busses full of immigrants northwards. It will only happen through cooperation.
The alternative is that every European country acts like Hungary, builds a wall on heir southern border and says that everyting to the South is not their problem. [/quote]

No if every country acted like Hungary the only problem would be what route the illegals will be deported via.

There should have been an EU border force/customs operation operating in the Mediterranean particularly long ago, with teeth, unlike FRONTEX which got threatened with shoot downs by Turkey while in Greek territory and the EU stayed silent.

If you cared reading my posts here and in other threads, this is what I said repeatedly. [/quote]

I'm not a regular participant on these forums so....

But I'm sure you're a bailout expert, whose going to explain how after being "bailed out" the country's debt went from just over 100% to nearly 200%.

LOL, yeh right. Because when you get bailed out, your debt increases.

Are you acually claiming that the debt-to-GDP ratio that was officially stated by Karamanlis was genuine? They have admitted themselves that the numbers were cooked. Right before the bailout, it wasn't "just over 100 %" but much, much higher. [/quote]

So what was it then? You keep saying it was higher...
And the Germans have admitted that most of the funds weren't for Greece but their banks.

That makes a lot of sense. There was even a small "hair cut". But the debt stayed up. Yeh, bail outs, German style.
But hey, ignore the Germans who them selves are saying they screwed Greece over, and that the majority of funds went directly to their banks and not Greece. Be selective in what you believe from the Germans. Believe the negativity about Greece, but don't believe the Germans when they tell you they've done the dirty on another country(again..).

Yeah right "the Germans" are saying that and that. It's that easy.
Clearly there were so many alternatives to the bailout. Greece could have told the EU that the debt is not going to be paid, period. Their fault for lending. What next? Greece could have borrowed money without austerity from Russia, or China, or...
The thing which I said and you ignored, so I'll repeat it again: The whole world is refusing to lend to Greece over it's finances shenanigans right now. China won't lend Greece, Russia won't lend Greece (and Cyprus too, as Christofias found out the hard way), India won't etc. Why do you think Greece is cut off from the international markets? Some kind of trick where everybody has secretly agreed that Greece's debt isn't real, but they'll pretend it is?
Nobody wants to lend to Greece other than the EU, on EU conditions. So either it will be those conditions, or the Greek state manages to cover its expenses completely by itself. There's no "we get money from others and decide ourselves how to spend it" option. [/quote]

The alternative was Papandreou doing what a leader should do, manage your bloody country.
Why do the politicians need Europe to tell them to reform and open up the economy? Or that they needed to trim the public sector?...

LOL, Sorras..how did I know you'll drop his name. Get serious or nice chatting to you.

If you're are in favor of EU exit and a national currency, at least you're consistent. Personally, I'd think it would be catastrophic - as other countries around the world with hyperinflationed paper money show - but at least it's a consistent position.

The mindset I detest the most is that of the current Syriza-ANEL followers, who they think they can somehow tell the Europeans to fuck off and get free money from them at the same time.[/quote]

I'm in favour of a united Europe just not of the current union.
The only way the current setup with single currency will work is if Europe becomes a single super sized country like Australia or America. That means surrendering complete and total sovereignty over everything to Brussels. It'll never happen. Nationalism is on the rise in Europe, and the more illegals Muslim immigrants keep coming the more it'll continue to rise.

Anyhow back to the topics issue..
The Turks are upset with Kammenos saying that if the Treaty of Lausagne isn't good enough for Erdogan, we can always go back to the Treaty of Sevres.

Apparently he shouldn't say such things because it hurts no-lateral relations.
Erdogan and other Turkish ministers saying Lausagne isn't valid and that 18 Greek islands are actually Turkish and currently being occupied by Greece..now that's a positive contribution to bi-lateral relations.

Might be interesting the next four years for Turkey while Trump is in the White Hiuse given how he feels about ISIS and terrorism, and now that there's 57,000 leaked emails proving Turkeys involvement with ISIS, much less a Turkish ministers direct involvement in trading oil with ISIS.

[Baltenstein]

You probably voted Syriza

I did make that foolish and horrible mistake once in my life, yes.
You still haven't told me which political party you support.

No if every country acted like Hungary the only problem would be what route the illegals will be deported via.

The problem is, Greece, with her maritime borders, is the one country along the route that can't act like Hungary.

So what was it then? You keep saying it was higher...

And the Germans have admitted that most of the funds weren't for Greece but their banks.

Even so! The EU gave Greece money, the majority of which went to the banks - paying debts which the Greek state had willingly made, by the way, it's not like these debts were artificial - and the rest of which went to the Greek states' expenses.
The rest of the world refused to give Greece any financial support whatsoever.
Which one do you consider the better option?

The alternative was Papandreou doing what a leader should do, manage your bloody country.
Why do the politicians need Europe to tell them to reform and open up the economy? Or that they needed to trim the public sector?...

Because Greek politicians are a bunch of incompetent cleptocrats. Some - like our current government - much more so than others. And because Greek society keeps voting these jokers into office.

I'm in favour of a united Europe just not of the current union.
The only way the current setup with single currency will work is if Europe becomes a single super sized country like Australia or America. That means surrendering complete and total sovereignty over everything to Brussels. It'll never happen. Nationalism is on the rise in Europe, and the more illegals Muslim immigrants keep coming the more it'll continue to rise.

We're either moving towards a United States of Europe - complete with common government, fiscal union and currency union - or it will eventually break down to individual nationstates again. We can either accelerate or slow down that process, but it will be one of those two options.

Anyhow back to the topics issue..
The Turks are upset with Kammenos saying that if the Treaty of Lausagne isn't good enough for Erdogan, we can always go back to the Treaty of Sevres.

Apparently he shouldn't say such things because it hurts no-lateral relations.
Erdogan and other Turkish ministers saying Lausagne isn't valid and that 18 Greek islands are actually Turkish and currently being occupied by Greece..now that's a positive contribution to bi-lateral relations.

Uh yes, that was my OP to this thread actually.

Anyways, Kammenos shouldn't talk because he is an embarassing moron whose main interest in being defense minister seems to be uploading as many selfies of himself in military outfits as possible.
The official position of Greece should not be this sort "Lausanne/Sevres" dickwaving contest, but rather a firm statement that the current borders are internationally recognized and will stay that way, period.
Just like, for example, the Spanish government is categorically opposing any sort of border recognition in Kosovo or (theoretically) Scotland for their own, Catalonia-related reasons.

Might be interesting the next four years for Turkey while Trump is in the White Hiuse given how he feels about ISIS and terrorism, and now that there's 57,000 leaked emails proving Turkeys involvement with ISIS, much less a Turkish ministers direct involvement in trading oil with ISIS.

Trump himself and his inner circle have frequently expressed their admiration for Erdogan, and how important an ally they think he is. Do you really think president Trump will turn things in Greece's favor? I don't think so.

[Defender of Democracy]

You probably voted Syriza

I did make that foolish and horrible mistake once in my life, yes.
You still haven't told me which political party you support.

That's because I don't support any of them.
I don't support communists, radical left wingers, conservatives, far right wingers, greens or any of the shit that exists.
What I support is someone who will put Greece first. Someone who will do what is in the interests of Greece and her people. Someone who will strive to make Hellenism stronger, someone who cares about their country and people, someone who wants to see a strong Greece(particularly economically and as a society and nation in general), who has the intelligence to navigate international politics and diplomacy, and the so called real-politic. Someone who is a statesmen, or an elder statesmen.
Because what we have leading the country now is a piece of shit anarcho-loving pathetic loser who doesn't even pretend to have any respect for his flag and nation, let alone the national anthem or the men and women who are serving their nation. It's actually embarrassing that we have such a loser as a Prime Minister, when while he should be standing to attention the moment the national anthem is playing, his counterparts from other countries are standing to attention for OUR anthem.

Such a person obviously hasn't come to the forefront of Greek politics to date otherwise they'd be in power because I think the majority of people also are fed up with the existing situation and political parties hence why Syriza was able to win. One day, hopefully soon, such a person will come to power.
Maybe when Syriza fuck things up even more, and inevitably Golden Dawn get in and screw things up as well by making us a pariah on the world stage, someone who puts Greece's interests first will come along.

No if every country acted like Hungary the only problem would be what route the illegals will be deported via.

The problem is, Greece, with her maritime borders, is the one country along the route that can't act like Hungary. [/quote]

Australia seems to be able to have stopped the boats arriving. Of course it doesn't have islands lying next to the enemies coast.
It still has more area to patrol over a much larger area in it's northern approaches.
They've stopped the boats because they wanted to. Because they deployed the navy, they deployed a border force, and maritime patrol aircraft, and they instituted a policy of turning the boats back. They send people to detention centers in nearby countries whom they have an agreement with. Anyone who isn't deemed a refugee, and that's most of them, isn't allowed to come to Australia.
Pretty soon they are going to ban anyone who tried to come to Australia illegally, who was deemed to not be a refugee, from ever being allowed to enter the country.

The difference is that Australia has a tough policy and stance on illegal immigration, and they follow through.
In Europe we have a bunch of losers who want to let everyone in, and those losers are in power.

Of course Australia's problem wasn't anywhere near as big as Greece's and Italy's problem.

So what was it then? You keep saying it was higher...

And the Germans have admitted that most of the funds weren't for Greece but their banks.

Even so! The EU gave Greece money, the majority of which went to the banks - paying debts which the Greek state had willingly made, by the way, it's not like these debts were artificial - and the rest of which went to the Greek states' expenses.
The rest of the world refused to give Greece any financial support whatsoever.
Which one do you consider the better option? [/quote]

Ok, so that graph says around 140% from what I can see unless I'm blind.
So if the EU gave Greece money to pay off debts, why has Greece's debt continued to climb afterwards as a direct result of being "bailed out"?? That was my actual point. Not what the level of debt was, that's not really relevant whether it was 110% or 140%.

The alternative was Papandreou doing what a leader should do, manage your bloody country.
Why do the politicians need Europe to tell them to reform and open up the economy? Or that they needed to trim the public sector?...

Because Greek politicians are a bunch of incompetent cleptocrats. Some - like our current government - much more so than others. And because Greek society keeps voting these jokers into office. [/quote]

Is there an alternative to vote for?
The people need to throw these corrupt clowns out, not only of the parliament, but of the country.

I'm in favour of a united Europe just not of the current union.
The only way the current setup with single currency will work is if Europe becomes a single super sized country like Australia or America. That means surrendering complete and total sovereignty over everything to Brussels. It'll never happen. Nationalism is on the rise in Europe, and the more illegals Muslim immigrants keep coming the more it'll continue to rise.

We're either moving towards a United States of Europe - complete with common government, fiscal union and currency union - or it will eventually break down to individual nationstates again. We can either accelerate or slow down that process, but it will be one of those two options. [/quote]

Most likely.

Anyhow back to the topics issue..
The Turks are upset with Kammenos saying that if the Treaty of Lausagne isn't good enough for Erdogan, we can always go back to the Treaty of Sevres.

Apparently he shouldn't say such things because it hurts no-lateral relations.
Erdogan and other Turkish ministers saying Lausagne isn't valid and that 18 Greek islands are actually Turkish and currently being occupied by Greece..now that's a positive contribution to bi-lateral relations.

Uh yes, that was my OP to this thread actually. [/quote]

Well we agree on some things I guess..

Anyways, Kammenos shouldn't talk because he is an embarassing moron whose main interest in being defense minister seems to be uploading as many selfies of himself in military outfits as possible.
The official position of Greece should not be this sort "Lausanne/Sevres" dickwaving contest, but rather a firm statement that the current borders are internationally recognized and will stay that way, period.
Just like, for example, the Spanish government is categorically opposing any sort of border recognition in Kosovo or (theoretically) Scotland for their own, Catalonia-related reasons.

And if he wasn't a moron obsessed with taking selfies in military attire, would you agree with his comments?

Might be interesting the next four years for Turkey while Trump is in the White Hiuse given how he feels about ISIS and terrorism, and now that there's 57,000 leaked emails proving Turkeys involvement with ISIS, much less a Turkish ministers direct involvement in trading oil with ISIS.

Trump himself and his inner circle have frequently expressed their admiration for Erdogan, and how important an ally they think he is. Do you really think president Trump will turn things in Greece's favor? I don't think so.[/quote]

I don't think he will and never said he will. He's also expressed him self regarding ISIS and terrorism..something that Turkey has it's fingerprints all over.
He's on the record as saying that Europe, Germany specifically, should handle the Greece situation, and that America should stay out of it because they get involved in too many things.

Although I do believe several in his inner circle are Greek..although we've seen in the past how well Greek-Americans serve the interests of Greece(not at all), unlike the Jews in America with Israel..

Time will tell though. What they say during campaigns and what they actually do if they get in to office are two different things.

[New Werpland]

I don't think he will and never said he will. He's also expressed him self regarding ISIS and terrorism..something that Turkey has it's fingerprints all over.
He's on the record as saying that Europe, Germany specifically, should handle the Greece situation, and that America should stay out of it because they get involved in too many things.

Although I do believe several in his inner circle are Greek..although we've seen in the past how well Greek-Americans serve the interests of Greece(not at all), unlike the Jews in America with Israel..

Time will tell though. What they say during campaigns and what they actually do if they get in to office are two different things.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.dailycaller.com/2016/11/16/trump-adviser-recently-met-with-operatives-linked-to-turkish-government-agents/?client=safari
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/foreign-policy/305021-our-ally-turkey-is-in-crisis-and-needs-our-support

Trump's national security advisor receives money from Erdogan and supports him in rhetoric. We're also ignoring Erdogan's phone call and the subtle warming up of the AKP to Trump behind their domestic facade.

Trump has a reason to be interested in Turkey, but little for Greece. Serbian ultranat support does not a pro-Greek president make.

[Novus America]

I don't think he will and never said he will. He's also expressed him self regarding ISIS and terrorism..something that Turkey has it's fingerprints all over.
He's on the record as saying that Europe, Germany specifically, should handle the Greece situation, and that America should stay out of it because they get involved in too many things.

Although I do believe several in his inner circle are Greek..although we've seen in the past how well Greek-Americans serve the interests of Greece(not at all), unlike the Jews in America with Israel..

Time will tell though. What they say during campaigns and what they actually do if they get in to office are two different things.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.dailycaller.com/2016/11/16/trump-adviser-recently-met-with-operatives-linked-to-turkish-government-agents/?client=safari
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/foreign-policy/305021-our-ally-turkey-is-in-crisis-and-needs-our-support

Trump's national security advisor receives money from Erdogan and supports him in rhetoric. We're also ignoring Erdogan's phone call and the subtle warming up of the AKP to Trump behind their domestic facade.

Trump has a reason to be interested in Turkey, but little for Greece. Serbian ultranat support does not a pro-Greek president make.

Well in all fairness we have to play a delicate game with Erdogan. He has the West by the balls, and he knows it.