7th Rome prophecy?

[Valaran]

Did you just put the CIA on there. Are you sure about that statement.

Indeed I did. You win 5M internet $ for paying attention.

I assume that this in reference to the notion of 'state terrorism', which is mostly conducted by intelligence agencies.

[Engleberg]

Did you just put the CIA on there. Are you sure about that statement.

Indeed I did. You win 5M internet $ for paying attention.

Yeah....no.

[New Grestin]

-snip-

You're going to want to go back to the original post and notice that I never said China becoming the next major world power was a good thing.

Just as the United States sitting astride the world hasn't been an objectively good thing. Perhaps we went in with the best of intentions, but I doubt the banana republics and volatile warzones we left in our wake are going to give two shits about what we meant to do.

The United States rose to the top because of a perfect storm of factors, and the fact that we were willing to murder and backstab anyone that got in our way to the top.

That's just how the world works.

China, or the next major world superpower, will act no differently than we did. Perhaps worse, perhaps significantly worse, but the United States hasn't had a moral high ground for a long, long time.

[The Grene Knyght]

Indeed I did. You win 5M internet $ for paying attention.

Yeah....no.

Depends how you define terrorist but tbh the CIA meets every definition that come to mind

[Napkiraly]

Indeed I did. You win 5M internet $ for paying attention.

I assume that this in reference to the notion of 'state terrorism', which is mostly conducted by intelligence agencies.

It's only state terrorism when it is conducted against us.

[Genivaria]

German Empire or Nazi Germany wasn't "Rome" enough for you?

If russia gets to be a rome, do the carolingians get to be one, too?

The fourth Rome shall never be therefore:
the First Reich = Charlemagne and HRE was NOT Rome:
the Second Reich = Wilhelm and Prussian Empire was NOT Rome;
the Third Reich = Hitler and Naziism was NOT Rome.

The main point of this thread is who will be the nxt Mpire after USA?

The secondary point of the thread is categorizing which historical Empires count as legitimate descendants and ancestors of Rome?

Why not?
You're standards seem to be completely arbitrary.

[Nordengrund]

AD 1453: Barbarians destroyed Constantinople, the second Rome and there was a prophecy "Two Romes have fallen. The third stands. And there will not be a fourth https://orthodoxwiki.org/Third_Rome

Rome 1 = Rome
Rome 2 = Constantinople
Rome 3 = Moscow

The fourth Rome shall never be = the Holy Roman Empire which is defined as neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire.

Rome 5 = British Empire, the biggest Empire evah: therefore Arthur Pendragon.
Rome 6 = USA

Which nation will be the next Empire after USA?

As a pessimist, I expect terrorists will win.

As an optimist, I hope India will win. Britain civilized India therefore they carry the legacy of Arthur Pendragon himself.

India was quite civilized before Britain took it over and the US was never an empire.

There were attempts though, where the U.S. tried imperialism. Why do you think we have territories like Puerto Rico and use to own places like the Philippines?

One could also argue that the U.S. is a hegemonic empire since we have bases in various parts of the world.

[Auristania]

The fourth Rome shall never be therefore:
the First Reich = Charlemagne and HRE was NOT Rome:
the Second Reich = Wilhelm and Prussian Empire was NOT Rome;
the Third Reich = Hitler and Naziism was NOT Rome.

The main point of this thread is who will be the nxt Mpire after USA?

The secondary point of the thread is categorizing which historical Empires count as legitimate descendants and ancestors of Rome?

Why not?
You're standards seem to be completely arbitrary.

To xplain the xplanation: the Poll is set at guess which nation will be the Empire after USA? If Posters vote to change the Poll to Favourite historical Mpire, then so.

[Sanctissima]

True, but the CCP is hardly another Han dynasty, or akin to one of the more illustrious and successful ones. They've managed to mass industrialize the country, but that's about it. The military is (despite being massive in terms of sheer manpower) extremely underfunded, the environment is completely fucked, the culture is utterly destroyed and socially things are not terribly good. Given enough of a shove, it could all come crashing down.

They're basically another Qing Dynasty. Very powerful, but not stable. A civil war is, while unprecedented, almost always just around the corner.

Not that I'm espcially willing to defend China or the CCP, but, to adress some of your specific points:

They have had one of the most successful economic development stories in history. This has been more than industrialisation, and also included (for instance) the largest and sharpest reduction in poverty ever recorded, one of the largest and best sustained periods of economic growth, unprecedented and sustained rise in living standards, etc. I don't feel your sentence does such an achievement justice.

As to the underfunding of their military, well I would normally question on what basis might one might have proclaimed this, but in China's case it would be simply easier to note that its budget increases by 6-11% annually. It is currently higher than all other Asian countries combined, and such exponential growth leads to obvious future results. Whatever underfunding may presently exist, it won't be there shortly (I think its military has other issues, but funding levels is not really one of them).

Culture is a tricksy concept, but your point is contentious. It has not been destroyed so much as altered (often by general socio-economic forces that are concurrent with rapid development), and much of it (such as confucianism) is deliberately preserved and sponsored by the CCP. You'd be on more solid ground when referring to the suppression of specific cultures, namely Uighur or Tibetan.

[No argument on the environmental consequences]

Now as to stability, I think it is fair to say that CCP has far greater control over both state institutions, and indeed civil society, than the Qing Dynasty did. As to whether this leads to stability as an objective reality (ie in a non-comparative sense) is harder to determine, but the present system is far from teetering over the edge: the CCP is relatively popular (due to nationalism and rising living standards), it has no major alternative to worry about and it maintains a tight fairly grip over the citizen body and over the possible origins of any alternative system (education, intellectuals, online, etc). This far more sturdy an edifice than most dictators can boast of. While there are clearly long term issues on the horizon (states' inability to reform well, reliance on economic factors, birth of civil movements, lack of local/provincial control, etc), these remain relatively distant pressures, not immediate fracture points. Thus, I highly doubt that a shove could presently do that much, outside of some massively catastrophic event that any system of government would be hard pressed to survive.

Fair points all around.

My main point about the economy is that it's foundationless. Sure, there's sustained growth, and everything looks indomitable at the surface, but deep down there are two major problems that could, even individually, cause the whole thing to implode:

1) The Coal Sector. They have nuclear plants and massive hydroelectric plants, sure, but China is overwhelmingly dependent on coal. This has reduced pretty massive sections of the country to smog-ridden hellholes, which has completely fucked much of their population health-wise. The bottom line is, China is unlikely to give up coal before it is forced to, and by then I expect it will be a bit too late since much of their agricultural sector will already be in ruins, and the bulk of their population will have health conditions that make Minamata look like nothing.

2) Their Population. Too many boys, not enough girls. Give it a few decades, and the country will experience a major population decline unless they adopt en masse from other countries (which they won't, because they're racist as all hell). That will fuck over a large swath of their economy. Or not, it depends on when automation kicks off.

Militarily, I probably should have reworded that. My main point is that it's shit. They've got tanks that can't fit soldiers, guns that malfunction, and training that makes even Germany's Army look like it's got its shit together. In an actual war with a country of similar strength, they wouldn't fare nearly as well as many people think.

Culturally, no, I'm sorry, but I must insist their new culture is shit. Their society has been reduced to a bunch of lemming-locust hybrids who follow the pack but are selfish as all hell. It is the utmost worst combination of collectivism and individualism in one fucked up union. Ever wonder why nobody liked Chinese tourists? It's because they're a bunch of assholes whose culture has been reduced to assholism.

Stability-wise, if they ever faced an actual longterm crisis (particularly one that prevented them from importing sufficient amounts of food from other countries for a significant period of time) all hell would break loose. There are Party members at odds with each other who quite literally have private armies under their control in all but name. It may be a house of cards reinforced with concrete, but it's still a house of cards. Give it enough of a push, and it will shove, considerably moreso than other developed countries.

[Napkiraly]

Why not?
You're standards seem to be completely arbitrary.

To xplain the xplanation: the Poll is set at guess which nation will be the Empire after USA? If Posters vote to change the Poll to Favourite historical Mpire, then so.

Yes, but you have yet to explain why the HRE cannot be considered a successor to Rome. After all, said status as successor played a very large role in Medieval European politics.

[The Antichrist Trump]

I do not believe there will be any further world empires: the USA is the final one as I believe we may very well be living in the End Times.

[Alvecia]

To xplain the xplanation: the Poll is set at guess which nation will be the Empire after USA? If Posters vote to change the Poll to Favourite historical Mpire, then so.

Yes, but you have yet to explain why the HRE cannot be considered a successor to Rome. After all, said status as successor played a very large role in Medieval European politics.

You can't just pick and choose "Romes".

You do that and the prophecy isn't predicting anything, you're cherry picking to suit the wording of it

I can pick and chose Romes. So can everybody else.

OP don't give a shit

[Napkiraly]

Can confirm that mainland Chinese tourists are nothing but fucking assholes. Have never had a good experience with them.

[Genivaria]

India was quite civilized before Britain took it over and the US was never an empire.

There were attempts though, where the U.S. tried imperialism. Why do you think we have territories like Puerto Rico and use to own places like the Philippines?

One could also argue that the U.S. is a hegemonic empire since we have bases in various parts of the world.

Technically one definition of Empire is any state that is made up of multiple nationalities and cultures.
So Rome wasn't an Empire because of Augustus, it was an Empire the moment it expanded beyond Italy.

[Genivaria]

Why not?
You're standards seem to be completely arbitrary.

To xplain the xplanation: the Poll is set at guess which nation will be the Empire after USA? If Posters vote to change the Poll to Favourite historical Mpire, then so.

What do you mean by 'the empire after USA'?
That statement makes no sense.
If you define the USA as an Empire than by the same standard both China and Russia are both Empires as well.

[Nordengrund]

There were attempts though, where the U.S. tried imperialism. Why do you think we have territories like Puerto Rico and use to own places like the Philippines?

One could also argue that the U.S. is a hegemonic empire since we have bases in various parts of the world.

Technically one definition of Empire is any state that is made up of multiple nationalities and cultures.
So Rome wasn't an Empire because of Augustus, it was an Empire the moment it expanded beyond Italy.

Then I guess the US is an empire because we expanded beyond the contentious United States and into Hawaii and Puerto Rico. That, and we received land from Mexico and France.

[Genivaria]

Technically one definition of Empire is any state that is made up of multiple nationalities and cultures.
So Rome wasn't an Empire because of Augustus, it was an Empire the moment it expanded beyond Italy.

Then I guess the US is an empire because we expanded beyond the contentious United States and into Hawaii and Puerto Rico. That, and we received land from Mexico and France.

By that definition definitely.
It still doesn't make the OP's standard any less nonsensical.

[The first Galactic Republic]

Why does it just arbitrarily start with Rome if we're talking about civilizations with no connections to the Romans?

[Neanderthaland]

Carthage, North Carolina

[Genivaria]

Why does it just arbitrarily start with Rome if we're talking about civilizations with no connections to the Romans?

Rome seems to be the at the center of everything for people who read the Bible and conspiracies instead of actual history.

[Alvecia]

Why does it just arbitrarily start with Rome if we're talking about civilizations with no connections to the Romans?

Rome seems to be the at the center of everything for people who read the Bible and conspiracies instead of actual history.

Anything before Christianity doesn't count/is irrelevant I guess.

[Neanderthaland]

Rome seems to be the at the center of everything for people who read the Bible and conspiracies instead of actual history.

Anything before Christianity doesn't count/is irrelevant I guess.

Admittedly "people who read the Bible and conspiracies instead of actual history" have a bit of an obsession with Babylon as well.

[The Grene Knyght]

Why does it just arbitrarily start with Rome if we're talking about civilizations with no connections to the Romans?

Muh prophecy

[Alvecia]

Anything before Christianity doesn't count/is irrelevant I guess.

Admittedly "people who read the Bible and conspiracies instead of actual history" have a bit of an obsession with Babylon as well.

True. But I guess it being such a prominent place so close to that time period probably means it's just ripe for the "prelude" so to speak.

[Siotao]

The USA isn't going anywhere soon, and China, while declining, still has not reached it's full potential. So while many may say China's time is up, I'd say it has started, but is merely being postponed by several shortcomings from recklessness.