Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Vassenor]

Source, Geneviev, source please, that surgery is sinful if it is "unnecessary".

Also, your position on this opens up a whole can of worms. Say someone was born with a disfigurement. They want surgery to correct it. The surgery isn't "necessary" as such, but they want to get it. Why is that sinful?

If it's unnecessary, it's self-mutilation. 1 Corinthians 6:19 "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own." If you change your body on purpose to change God's creation then you are also going against what he wants. Genesis 5:2 "He created them male and female and blessed them."

Generally speaking people don't perform SRS on themselves.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

The brain is part of the the body. With dysphoria, the two are misaligned (i.e. not working).
If it were working, you would not experience dysphoria.

And dysphoria is unpleasant. That doesn't mean that SRS is necessary. It's damaging the body to relieve mental problems. It's like cutting. That is not the healthy way to fix problems.

Look, I get that you're trying to find reasons for your decision. But dont spread misinformation. Dysphoria is more than unpleasant. It has tragic consequences. SRS is not like cutting. SRS is a corrective measure that si me trans people resort to to improve their lives. Cutting doesn't improve lives. The two are not comparable.

[The New California Republic]

The brain is part of the the body. With dysphoria, the two are misaligned (i.e. not working).
If it were working, you would not experience dysphoria.

And dysphoria is unpleasant. That doesn't mean that SRS is necessary. It's damaging the body to relieve mental problems. It's like cutting. That is not the healthy way to fix problems.

What nonsense. SRS is nothing like self-harming, stop conflating the two.

[The South Falls]

And dysphoria is unpleasant. That doesn't mean that SRS is necessary. It's damaging the body to relieve mental problems. That is not the healthy way to fix problems.

Misaligned teeth are unpleasant, doesn't mean braces are necessary.
Mental problems are still problems with the body, just a specific part of the body. As with any surgery, you're "damaging" the body to fix the body.

A lot of things are "unpleasant", but surgeries are needed to fix them. For example, a dislocated shoulder is "unpleasant" and you must damage the body to fix them.

[Alvecia]

Misaligned teeth are unpleasant, doesn't mean braces are necessary.
Mental problems are still problems with the body, just a specific part of the body. As with any surgery, you're "damaging" the body to fix the body.

A lot of things are "unpleasant", but surgeries are needed to fix them. For example, a dislocated shoulder is "unpleasant" and you must damage the body to fix them.

Depending on how hard/soft your definition, very few medical interventions are necessary.

[The New California Republic]

A lot of things are "unpleasant", but surgeries are needed to fix them. For example, a dislocated shoulder is "unpleasant" and you must damage the body to fix them.

Depending on how hard/soft your definition, very few medical interventions are necessary.

And it is a definition that would need to be precise, especially since some people think that "unnecessary" body repairs and adjustments are sinful.

[Geneviev]

And dysphoria is unpleasant. That doesn't mean that SRS is necessary. It's damaging the body to relieve mental problems. It's like cutting. That is not the healthy way to fix problems.

What nonsense. SRS is nothing like self-harming, stop conflating the two.

How is it not? Damaging your body to make your brain feel better.

[Alvecia]

What nonsense. SRS is nothing like self-harming, stop conflating the two.

How is it not? Damaging your body to make your brain feel better.

Again, that’s literally any surgical intervention.

[The New California Republic]

What nonsense. SRS is nothing like self-harming, stop conflating the two.

How is it not? Damaging your body to make your brain feel better.

If you cannot see clear and distinct differences between SRS and self-harming of all things then I really cannot help you, as no amount of explaining on my part will help you to see that.

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I will ask again: when people have braces to straighten their teeth to improve their appearance to make them feel better, are they committing a sin?

[Geneviev]

How is it not? Damaging your body to make your brain feel better.

If you cannot see clear and distinct differences between SRS and self-harming of all things then I really cannot help you, as no amount of explaining on my part will help you to see that.

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I will ask again: when people have braces to straighten their teeth to improve their appearance to make them feel better, are they committing a sin?

They are not because braces are necessary.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

If you cannot see clear and distinct differences between SRS and self-harming of all things then I really cannot help you, as no amount of explaining on my part will help you to see that.

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I will ask again: when people have braces to straighten their teeth to improve their appearance to make them feel better, are they committing a sin?

They are not because braces are necessary.

So is SRS for some transgender people. A necessary procedure.

[Neutraligon]

How is it not? Damaging your body to make your brain feel better.

If you cannot see clear and distinct differences between SRS and self-harming of all things then I really cannot help you, as no amount of explaining on my part will help you to see that.

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I will ask again: when people have braces to straighten their teeth to improve their appearance to make them feel better, are they committing a sin?

I will give another example. There are some women with breasts that are very different sizes. When I say very different I mean one breast can be an A or B and the other a triple DDD or bigger. This is not something that is harmful to the body (well beyond the fact that very large breasts can cause back pain) but it is a quality of life issue. Should this woman be able to correct her breast size so that they are close to the same size? This surgery is both permanent, unnecessary, and as a surgery "mutilates" that body (since you know any surgery does that).

[Neutraligon]

If you cannot see clear and distinct differences between SRS and self-harming of all things then I really cannot help you, as no amount of explaining on my part will help you to see that.

---

I will ask again: when people have braces to straighten their teeth to improve their appearance to make them feel better, are they committing a sin?

They are not because braces are necessary.

No they are not. People can get by in life very easily without strait teeth. Braces are mostly a cosmetic change.

[The New California Republic]

They are not because braces are necessary.

No they are not. Not when used for aesthetic reasons, which they often are. So I will ask again: Is changing one's body by changing one's teeth with braces, for "unnecessary" aesthetic reasons, a sin? According to your definition, that unnecessary body changes are sinful, then it would be. So is it?

[Neutraligon]

They are not because braces are necessary.

No they are not. Not when used for aesthetic reasons, which they often are. So I will ask again: Is changing one's body by changing one's teeth with braces, for "unnecessary" aesthetic reasons, a sin? According to your definition, that unnecessary body changes are sinful, then it would be. So is it?

Hell if you take that verse in certain ways, any modification of the body, including life saving ones should be a sin.

[The South Falls]

No they are not. Not when used for aesthetic reasons, which they often are. So I will ask again: Is changing one's body by changing one's teeth with braces, for "unnecessary" aesthetic reasons, a sin? According to your definition, that unnecessary body changes are sinful, then it would be. So is it?

Hell if you take that verse in certain ways, any modification of the body, including life saving ones should be a sin.

Open heart surgery could be a sin, if to replace a worn pacemaker. You could do with the worn one, but you won't.

[The Parkus Empire]

No they are not. Not when used for aesthetic reasons, which they often are. So I will ask again: Is changing one's body by changing one's teeth with braces, for "unnecessary" aesthetic reasons, a sin? According to your definition, that unnecessary body changes are sinful, then it would be. So is it?

Hell if you take that verse in certain ways, any modification of the body, including life saving ones should be a sin.

There really should be a body of established professionals to give a consensus on Scripture's meaning on cases like this.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Hell if you take that verse in certain ways, any modification of the body, including life saving ones should be a sin.

Open heart surgery could be a sin, if to replace a worn pacemaker. You could do with the worn one, but you won't.

I imagine my trigger finger release surgery is a sin too under these parameters.

[Geneviev]

They are not because braces are necessary.

No they are not. Not when used for aesthetic reasons, which they often are. So I will ask again: Is changing one's body by changing one's teeth with braces, for "unnecessary" aesthetic reasons, a sin? According to your definition, that unnecessary body changes are sinful, then it would be. So is it?

Most of the time, braces are actually necessary. Where they are not, it still wouldn't be a sin because it's not intentionally and permanently harming your body.

[The South Falls]

Open heart surgery could be a sin, if to replace a worn pacemaker. You could do with the worn one, but you won't.

I imagine my trigger finger release surgery is a sin too under these parameters.

Exactly. It doesn't make sense. God didn't want us to suffer. Otherwise he would make life so painful we'd die. So why'd he be against this kind of modification?

[Aellex]

The specific quotes would be helpful.

Galatians 5:12 has him mocking sarcasticaly the ritual emasculation people used to do in honor of Cybele.

Again tho, the rest of the Bible is clear on that subject.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I imagine my trigger finger release surgery is a sin too under these parameters.

Exactly. It doesn't make sense. God didn't want us to suffer. Otherwise he would make life so painful we'd die. So why'd he be against this kind of modification?

Or the doctors and surgeons that help people get better.

[The New California Republic]

No they are not. Not when used for aesthetic reasons, which they often are. So I will ask again: Is changing one's body by changing one's teeth with braces, for "unnecessary" aesthetic reasons, a sin? According to your definition, that unnecessary body changes are sinful, then it would be. So is it?

Most of the time, braces are actually necessary. Where they are not, it still wouldn't be a sin because it's not intentionally and permanently harming your body.

You never said anything about harm, you said change. You said changing the body for unnecessary reasons was sinful. Stop trying to move the goalposts, they stay where they are.

So I will ask yet again (and don't move the goalposts this time): Is changing one's body by changing one's teeth with braces, for "unnecessary" aesthetic reasons, a sin?

[Geneviev]

I imagine my trigger finger release surgery is a sin too under these parameters.

Exactly. It doesn't make sense. God didn't want us to suffer. Otherwise he would make life so painful we'd die. So why'd he be against this kind of modification?

"Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?"
Matthew 16:24-26

Suffering is part of being Christian, and being trans is the cross that some people have to carry. The Bible doesn't say that God doesn't want us to suffer.

[The New California Republic]

The specific quotes would be helpful.

Galatians 5:12 has him mocking sarcasticaly the ritual emasculation people used to do in honor of Cybele.

Again tho, the rest of the Bible is clear on that subject.

Show me the specific quotes by Apostle Paul that say that sex changes are forbidden, and not try to fob me off with vague references like Galatians 5:12, which says nothing about sex changes being forbidden or sinful.