Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[The New California Republic]

Eve was made using one of Adam's ribs. That makes her a clone of Adam, male. However in the Bible Eve seems to identify as a woman, so that makes her MtF trans.

Even if we're to humor that weird circle-jerk of your, had Eve been a clone to Adam and thus male, she wouldn't have been able to have union with him and birth children.
Hence even if we're to accept the premises of your argument, it still doesn't work.

To be fair the entire thing is absurd, making a man out of dirt, and then a woman from a rib...

[United Muscovite Nations]

Even if we're to humor that weird circle-jerk of your, had Eve been a clone to Adam and thus male, she wouldn't have been able to have union with him and birth children.
Hence even if we're to accept the premises of your argument, it still doesn't work.

To be fair the entire thing is absurd, making a man out of dirt, and then a woman from a rib...

That's why it's a stupid line of discussion. It's not literal.

[The Serbian Empire]

WHY NOT? I think is an interesting idea worth exploring!

Because it's a pointless exercise in trying to find a meaning that was never meant to be taken from it. There is such a thing as over-analysis of literature.

The science would imply either Adam is intersex (presumably mosaic Klinefelter Syndrome) or that Eve is trans and that god made the plumbing of Eve with omnipotent powers. Either way, one ends up with a likely trans woman or a very unusual medical oddity only recorded about 12 times.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Because it's a pointless exercise in trying to find a meaning that was never meant to be taken from it. There is such a thing as over-analysis of literature.

The science would imply either Adam is intersex (presumably mosaic Klinefelter Syndrome) or that Eve is trans and that god made the plumbing of Eve with omnipotent powers. Either way, one ends up with a likely trans woman or a very unusual medical oddity only recorded about 12 times.

Or maybe it's just a story and didn't actually happen.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

The science would imply either Adam is intersex (presumably mosaic Klinefelter Syndrome) or that Eve is trans and that god made the plumbing of Eve with omnipotent powers. Either way, one ends up with a likely trans woman or a very unusual medical oddity only recorded about 12 times.

Or maybe it's just a story and didn't actually happen.

Are you an old earth creationist, Muscovite?

[Vassenor]

The science would imply either Adam is intersex (presumably mosaic Klinefelter Syndrome) or that Eve is trans and that god made the plumbing of Eve with omnipotent powers. Either way, one ends up with a likely trans woman or a very unusual medical oddity only recorded about 12 times.

Or maybe it's just a story and didn't actually happen.

Uh-huh.

[Philjia]

Or maybe it's just a story and didn't actually happen.

Uh-huh.

Oh be fair, no Christian outside of a tiny minority takes everything in the Bible literally. (And most of them are ignoring large chunks of it as well.)

[Grenartia]

1. I never said or implied it was a "fabrication of mankind". Simply that those distinctions need to be placed in a wider context than they currently are.

2a. "a prefix meaning “on the other side of,” referring to the misalignment of one’s gender identity with one's biological sex assigned at birth:"

I fail to see how the underlined is functionally much different from the definition I gave.

2b. The definition you gave certainly restricts the view of human sexuality and gender to an inadequate Complimentarianistic model.

2c. And...? Half the shit the transphobes that pop in here saying gives me the same reaction.

2d. I'm sorry you feel that way.

2e. How am I "throwing up walls"? Against who am I doing that to? For what reason am I doing it?

3. Honestly, the more apt comparison would be having red hair or green eyes.

4. If your model of two sexes needs a 3rd category to adequately explain observed reality, your model is shitty and needs revision. Its as stupid and overly simplistic as a particle physicist saying everything is either a proton or an electron, or some nebulous 3rd category that serves as a catchall for all the shit that is an exception.

1. The first poster said it is the way it is because 'some guy said so' implying it's just a fabrication. If I incorrectly read your response as support of that, I apologize.

2a. You need a five part response to me saying trans means opposite despite 2b. 'on the other side of' being right there in the definition. 2c. You said it was cisheterosexism. That right there is an unnecessary wall of language. 2d. Which is pretty common around here I'm seeing. 2e. Considering the serious issues facing the trans-community, I would think being unnecessarily critical of benign language would be low on the priority list. The deck chairs are fine, get to the lifeboats.

4. The third sex is catchall because it incorporates features of the other two. It's not some independent third different thing. A person may have characteristics of both sexes. Those are still either characteristics of male or female.

P. S. You're getting overly heated here. I suggest you take a nice walk outside, do some breathing exercises, and come back when you've calmed down. No need in a member of the site's staff getting a black mark on their record if it can be avoided.

5. This is quite possibly the most self-righteous tactic people take online. 6. Don't like what someone is saying? Just claim they are getting 'heated'. It paints you in good light and paints me as a frothing at the mouth rageaholic who's fresh out of rageahol. 7. Nothing in what I've posted suggests I am overly heated. I've managed to maintain composure on this forum for a decade and a half. I can do without the tips.

1. Apology accepted, though I wouldn't have read that implicaiton into their post.

2a. I needed those 5 parts because you said 5 different things that I felt needed to be addressed. I only needed one part to actually address the claim you made. And I see that you've said 5 more things that I need to address.

2b. And? Do I need to pull up a cartesian coordinate plane to illustrate how "on the other side of" and "opposite" aren't always synonymous?

2c. How is it "an unnecessary wall of language"?

2d. Has it occurred to you that, perhaps, we might need accurate words and terms to describe our reality, and that overly simplistic, outdated, and worst of all, ill-fitting terminology runs counter to that? Just because you don't think its necessary to use a given word or phrase, doesn't mean it isn't.

2e. Define "unnecessarily critical" and "benign language". To correct your analogy, the deck chairs aren't "fine" if they're keeping people from getting to the lifeboats.

4. And neutrons decay into both a proton and an electron (along with some other particles, including intermediates). Doesn't make it any less pants-on-head to only classify things as "protons", "electrons", and "exceptions".

5. I only called it as I saw it. If you weren't getting heated, then I apologize.

6. You're not doing a very good job of projecting calmness here.

7. I sensed some irritability in your tone. That's all I was pointing out.

[Grenartia]

Hot takes:

Eve was a transwoman, Christ was a transman.

Only if you think its wrong to not be cis. I mean, nobody (except racists) calls it heresy when a black church has a mural of a black Jesus on the wall over their pulpit. Nobody calls it heresy when somebody depicts Jesus as some guy who's whiter than the Queen's ass. Even though both are obviously wrong and he should have olive skin. So why's it heretical to suggest Jesus is trans? Especially when facts are taken into account? He clearly had only one biological parent, his mother, who clearly had XX chromosomes (unless she was XY, but somehow miraculously was able to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth, but that really only shifts the trans-ness). So we have a man who has XX chromosomes. Either he was trans, or he had the SRY gene-thing.

Eve was made using one of Adam's ribs. That makes her a clone of Adam, male. However in the Bible Eve seems to identify as a woman, so that makes her MtF trans.

I mean, God is omnipotent, so why could he not just make a completely new human from ribs?

I mean, if you're going to ask that, why not ask why he had to remove a rib to make a new human in the first place?

Can we not try to extrapolate biology from mythical creation stories?

I see you subscribe to biblical metaphoricalism when it suits you...

The science would imply either Adam is intersex (presumably mosaic Klinefelter Syndrome) or that Eve is trans and that god made the plumbing of Eve with omnipotent powers. Either way, one ends up with a likely trans woman or a very unusual medical oddity only recorded about 12 times.

Or maybe it's just a story and didn't actually happen.

And you have the nerve to call me a heretic when I say that God has no problem with consensual gay sex...

Uh-huh.

Oh be fair, no Christian outside of a tiny minority takes everything in the Bible literally. (And most of them are ignoring large chunks of it as well.)

Sure. But still. Considering UMN's previous statements, this is pretty ironic.

[Philjia]

Some TERF protesters were allowed to hijack the London Pride parade.

So that's nice.

[Vassenor]

Some TERF protesters were allowed to hijack the London Pride parade.

So that's nice.

Apparently they actively tried to stop the parade from moving off or something as well.

[Grenartia]

Some TERF protesters were allowed to hijack the London Pride parade.

So that's nice.

When will they learn?

[Dumb Ideologies]

London Pride should only ever be disrupted by everyone involved thinking better of it and doing something more productive for the community, like deleting their social media and becoming hermits.

[Luna Amore]

2e. Define "unnecessarily critical" and "benign language". To correct your analogy, the deck chairs aren't "fine" if they're keeping people from getting to the lifeboats.

Wow. Well this is where I'm getting off the ride. The irony is a little too strong.

As a last aside, there's nothing to correct. That's the saying: rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. You are wasting your time on something that doesn't matter while a larger problem looms. If you can't accept a cliche or easily defined English words, there's no point in continuing in my mind.

Good luck with your approach. I really don't think policing language is going to fix or even help that laundry list of problems facing transpeople you posted before (and you can tack a suicide rate north of 40% on there too), I don't think it'll help one whit. But who knows, maybe it will. I hope it will.

[Thuzbekistan]

Some TERF protesters were allowed to hijack the London Pride parade.

So that's nice.

How do you mean allowed?

[Vassenor]

Some TERF protesters were allowed to hijack the London Pride parade.

So that's nice.

How do you mean allowed?

They forced their way into the front of the parade despite having been told they would not be allowed to take part, and neither the police nor event security tried to stop them at any point.

[Vassenor]

Oh apparently it was too hot to stop them from hijacking the march or something.

...No I'm sorry, that's a weak-ass excuse.

[Auzkhia]

Some TERF protesters were allowed to hijack the London Pride parade.

So that's nice.

I heard from my British friends, it's sad and infuriating that transphobes got into pride. They're lesbian separatists, but if TERFs want to separate themselves from the LGBTQ community, that's great, because I don't want transphobia in the community.

Oh apparently it was too hot to stop them from hijacking the march or something.

...No I'm sorry, that's a weak-ass excuse.

I know hot weather can make people awfully ornery, but not transphobic.

[Vassenor]

Some TERF protesters were allowed to hijack the London Pride parade.

So that's nice.

I heard from my British friends, it's sad and infuriating that transphobes got into pride. They're lesbian separatists, but if TERFs want to separate themselves from the LGBTQ community, that's great, because I don't want transphobia in the community.

Oh apparently it was too hot to stop them from hijacking the march or something.

...No I'm sorry, that's a weak-ass excuse.

I know hot weather can make people awfully ornery, but not transphobic.

More something about how the hot weather made it unsafe to try and remove them or something like that. =/

[Grenartia]

2e. Define "unnecessarily critical" and "benign language". To correct your analogy, the deck chairs aren't "fine" if they're keeping people from getting to the lifeboats.

1. Wow. Well this is where I'm getting off the ride. The irony is a little too strong.

2. As a last aside, there's nothing to correct. That's the saying: rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. You are wasting your time on something that doesn't matter while a larger problem looms. If you can't accept a cliche or 3. easily defined English words, there's no point in continuing in my mind.

Good luck with your approach. 4. I really don't think policing language 5. is going to fix or even help that laundry list of problems facing transpeople you posted before 6.(and you can tack a suicide rate north of 40% on there too), I don't think it'll help one whit. But who knows, maybe it will. I hope it will.

1. By all means, elaborate.

2. I've actually not heard that one before. Though, if the deckchairs were blocking people's way onto the lifeboats, don't you agree it would be for the best to rearrange them in a way that fixes the problem?

3. The definition you gave didn't say what you thought it did.

4. "Policing language". For somebody who was really upset about my use of "cisheterosexism" and other terms that make people's eyes gloss over, you sure don't hesitate to use them when it suits you. Also, that's some unmitigated damn irony right there, you've been policing my language this entire discussion.

5. Does it not occur to you that shitty language is part of the problem in the first place? That it is an obstacle that must be eliminated in order to address the more pressing concerns more effectively? It certainly doesn't seem like it occurred to you. Would you say that in a discussion about racial equality, the statement "The Negroes may be intellectually inferior to whites, but nevertheless, they should be given an opportunity to try" is fucking harmful to the cause of racial equality, despite it nominally being pro race equality? I certainly hope you would.

6. Apparently, another thing that hasn't occurred to you is that that laundry list I presented is the reason why the suicide rate is upwards of 40%. And that shitty language issues are part of the reason the items on that laundry list exist.

[Grenartia]

Oh apparently it was too hot to stop them from hijacking the march or something.

...No I'm sorry, that's a weak-ass excuse.

My godless fucking heathens that's the lamest excuse I've ever heard. What the fuck do they think we do along the Gulf Coast? Sit on our asses in the closet all June while the Northerners prance around in rainbows all month?

[Dumb Ideologies]

Modern Pride stands only for rainbow capitalism and consciously reconfirming ever negative stereotype of the community as shallow, oversexed and a bit thick.

Naturally there was no response to the self-defined "non-queer" TERF outsiders shamefully bringing in politics, do you have any ideas how many "look at meeeeeeee" selfies might have been disrupted by even the briefest interlude of patriarchal-fascistic backbone-possession?!

[Vassenor]

Oh apparently it was too hot to stop them from hijacking the march or something.

...No I'm sorry, that's a weak-ass excuse.

My godless fucking heathens that's the lamest excuse I've ever heard. What the fuck do they think we do along the Gulf Coast? Sit on our asses in the closet all June while the Northerners prance around in rainbows all month?

The Met estimates there was around 150 officers in the march, and not one of them could've given them a stern tap on the shoulder?

[Grenartia]

My godless fucking heathens that's the lamest excuse I've ever heard. What the fuck do they think we do along the Gulf Coast? Sit on our asses in the closet all June while the Northerners prance around in rainbows all month?

The Met estimates there was around 150 officers in the march, and not one of them could've given them a stern tap on the shoulder?

Isn't the Met yall's weather people? How/why are they tracking the number of cops at pride marches?

[Philjia]

The Met estimates there was around 150 officers in the march, and not one of them could've given them a stern tap on the shoulder?

Isn't the Met yall's weather people? How/why are they tracking the number of cops at pride marches?

(London) Metropolitan Police, not to be confused with the Meteorological Office.