Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[New Greater Netherlands]

Uhm no, otherwise Ireland for example would kill the Protestants and the Brits and the LGBT people between 1916 and 1998

Um, the Roman Catholic Church used to execute heretics and apostates. You do know this, right?

When and where?

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

Um, the Roman Catholic Church used to execute heretics and apostates. You do know this, right?

When and where?

The Inquisition... Did you receive any type of state school education? A person in your country should know this....

[Grenartia]

Uh, guise? I don't think the ramifications of the Protestant Reformation and the history of Catholicism are relevant to this thread.

[Jelmatt]

I get misgendered on the phone all the time, I’ve given up correcting people...

It sucks, I know, and I got into a debate, online, on whether trans people have an obligation to explain themselves and basic trans terms to cis people. I maintained that I don't have to teach you since google is free.

This attitude is completely understandable, as I'm sure trans people get waaaay too many questions from cis people that could be answered by a simple google search. But it really is best to educate people about these things if you can, especially as if they google search it they're as likely to find a transphobic website as one which honestly and respectfully explains trans issues and trans terminology.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

Uh, guise? I don't think the ramifications of the Protestant Reformation and the history of Catholicism are relevant to this thread.

Okay, I will stop...

[Grenartia]

It sucks, I know, and I got into a debate, online, on whether trans people have an obligation to explain themselves and basic trans terms to cis people. I maintained that I don't have to teach you since google is free.

This attitude is completely understandable, as I'm sure trans people get waaaay too many questions from cis people that could be answered by a simple google search. But it really is best to educate people about these things if you can, especially as if they google search it they're as likely to find a transphobic website as one which honestly and respectfully explains trans issues and trans terminology.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Exactly. That's why I don't buy into that "not my job to explain to you" line.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

This attitude is completely understandable, as I'm sure trans people get waaaay too many questions from cis people that could be answered by a simple google search. But it really is best to educate people about these things if you can, especially as if they google search it they're as likely to find a transphobic website as one which honestly and respectfully explains trans issues and trans terminology.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Exactly. That's why I don't buy into that "not my job to explain to you" line.

Especially if one searches transgender issues on YouTube....

[Dumb Ideologies]

This attitude is completely understandable, as I'm sure trans people get waaaay too many questions from cis people that could be answered by a simple google search. But it really is best to educate people about these things if you can, especially as if they google search it they're as likely to find a transphobic website as one which honestly and respectfully explains trans issues and trans terminology.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Exactly. That's why I don't buy into that "not my job to explain to you" line.

I sort of agree, but it's frustrating because you have to both simplify and stick to fairly standard narratives to make it accessible to newbies. It's not enticing to do free work explaining other people's stories and be semi-complicit in spreading stereotypes at the same time. Good deeds shouldn't make you feel slightly dirty after. My moral compass barely feels better than it does after a prolonged session of shitposting.

[Geneviev]

"transgenderism"

How to spot transphobia, if a writer uses that word unironically in a serious article.

If the writer uses that word unironically in a serious article after like, 2008, sure. Up until the mid-00s it was a common term in the trans community as well.

What else are people supposed to say?

I actually have no problem with the term itself, just find it outdated, but most people use terms like "being transgender" or "gender variance."

Sometimes it can get a bit weird, though. I've been reading a book which, to avoid using "transgenderism," just used "transgender" as a noun to refer to being transgender, so you'd have sentences like "many gender patients have difficulties coming to terms with their own transgender."

Transgender shouldn't be a noun. That sounds weird.

Anyways, thanks. I'll just not use transgenderism then so no transphobia is assumed.

[Auzkhia]

It sucks, I know, and I got into a debate, online, on whether trans people have an obligation to explain themselves and basic trans terms to cis people. I maintained that I don't have to teach you since google is free.

This attitude is completely understandable, as I'm sure trans people get waaaay too many questions from cis people that could be answered by a simple google search. But it really is best to educate people about these things if you can, especially as if they google search it they're as likely to find a transphobic website as one which honestly and respectfully explains trans issues and trans terminology.

First result when I googled "what is non binary"

Google also gives a quick dictionary definition.

If the writer uses that word unironically in a serious article after like, 2008, sure. Up until the mid-00s it was a common term in the trans community as well.



I actually have no problem with the term itself, just find it outdated, but most people use terms like "being transgender" or "gender variance."

Sometimes it can get a bit weird, though. I've been reading a book which, to avoid using "transgenderism," just used "transgender" as a noun to refer to being transgender, so you'd have sentences like "many gender patients have difficulties coming to terms with their own transgender."

Transgender shouldn't be a noun. That sounds weird.

Anyways, thanks. I'll just not use transgenderism then so no transphobia is assumed.

Yes. Transgender is an adjective. It's a common mistake for some, even well meaning cis people, to say "transgendered"

[Oudland]

Trans folks sure do seem concerned about how other people speak.

[Luna Amore]

Yes. Transgender is an adjective. It's a common mistake for some, even well meaning cis people, to say "transgendered"

Huh. TIL.

I think it's probably because male, female and gender are all nouns that you can naturally follow that to using transgender as a noun. Etymologically it makes sense in my head and I don't understand why it's offensive, but TIL none-the-less.

[Jelmatt]

Trans folks sure do seem concerned about how other people speak.

Call it a euphemism treadmill, call it political correctness, call it the activist language merry-go-round.

When a group is marginalized, they (and activists for them) tend to be much more sensitive about the language used to describe them. This often leads to situations where they focus on the negative implications of X word or Y word, wondering how it reinforces stereotypes, objectifies people, makes them seem like a monolithic block, etc., so this leads to a much shorter "lifespan" of words in marginalized communities

For example, most of the words I've seen people in the trans community complain about were common and accepted by the trans community themselves 10-15 years ago (e.g., transsexual, transgendered, transgenderism, including crossdressers as transgender, using transgender as a noun, MTF/FTM). In recent years (2013-2015 or roundabout?), we've seen the rise and fall of "trans*" (with the asterisk, so that it could be filled in with -sexual, -gender, -vestite, etc). The reasons for discarding these terms is often based on logic that wouldn't apply if trans people weren't marginalized (e.g., transsexual makes it sound like a sex thing, transgendered makes it sound like it's something that happens to trans people, transgenderism makes it sound like a monolithic ideology, associating crossdressers with [other] trans people makes it hard for the latter to break the "man in dresses" stereotype, transgender is something that describes a person but doesn't sum them up, MTF/FTM place too much focus on a person's birth sex). There's actually nothing inherently wrong with any of this terminology, but because trans people are a marginalized group, society at large will interpret words referring to them in a demeaning way, so there's a constant quest in the trans community to find the "best word" that avoids any possibility of demeaning trans people. There is no such word, of course, but there are definitely words which lend themselves easier to transphobic purposes.

So, yeah, trans folk are concerned about the language used to describe them, but with good reason, and they're going to be concerned about it until they're no longer as extremely marginalized as they are now. That's a natural response, and the best we can do is just try and respect that.

[Marxist Rainbow]

Trans folks sure do seem concerned about how other people speak.

>Capitalizt
>"Trans folks" used disparagingly

Yap, this checks out

[Dumb Ideologies]

Yes. Transgender is an adjective. It's a common mistake for some, even well meaning cis people, to say "transgendered"

Huh. TIL.

I think it's probably because male, female and gender are all nouns that you can naturally follow that to using transgender as a noun. Etymologically it makes sense in my head and I don't understand why it's offensive, but TIL none-the-less.

Don't know the official reason people don't like it as I'm not actively involved (surprise, surprise!) in any activist groups. But to me it's a word that doesn't work very well because it makes it sound almost as if being transgender is something that was done to them? "Oh no, I've been transgendered!!!" Feels like it plays into the semantic web of transphobic implications about it not being "natural" and people being tricked into it by some evil conspiracy of doctors or psychiatrists like the phobefems and religionists argue. It doesn't upset me personally, but I've always thought it sounds awkward.

[New Greater Netherlands]

If the writer uses that word unironically in a serious article after like, 2008, sure. Up until the mid-00s it was a common term in the trans community as well.



I actually have no problem with the term itself, just find it outdated, but most people use terms like "being transgender" or "gender variance."

Sometimes it can get a bit weird, though. I've been reading a book which, to avoid using "transgenderism," just used "transgender" as a noun to refer to being transgender, so you'd have sentences like "many gender patients have difficulties coming to terms with their own transgender."

Transgender shouldn't be a noun. That sounds weird.

Anyways, thanks. I'll just not use transgenderism then so no transphobia is assumed.

So i am actually then a woman? (Ofc i am a woman but i hope you get it)

[Grenartia]

This attitude is completely understandable, as I'm sure trans people get waaaay too many questions from cis people that could be answered by a simple google search. But it really is best to educate people about these things if you can, especially as if they google search it they're as likely to find a transphobic website as one which honestly and respectfully explains trans issues and trans terminology.

1. First result when I googled "what is non binary"

2. Google also gives a quick dictionary definition.

Transgender shouldn't be a noun. That sounds weird.

Anyways, thanks. I'll just not use transgenderism then so no transphobia is assumed.

3. Yes. Transgender is an adjective. It's a common mistake for some, even well meaning cis people, to say "transgendered"

1. IIRC, Google's got an algorithm that tailors search results to you, so unless you googled that in incognito mode, I don't think its representative of what most people would get.

2. The double edged-sword there is that it can also give some misleading information. I can't even count how many times some transphobic poster has come in a thread (not only this one, mind you) and randomly posted some copy pasted Google definition of gender that mentions biological sex.

3. I've noticed that there's a terminology spectrum that's often a reliable indicator of someone's intentions and informed-ness on this issue (and there's a similar one for race terminology).

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

Trans folks sure do seem concerned about how other people speak.

>Capitalizt
>"Trans folks" used disparagingly

Yap, this checks out

You should not judge one’s argument on how Nationstates chooses to classify the nation. That is mainly for role playing purposes...

[Grenartia]

Trans folks sure do seem concerned about how other people speak.

Cis folks sure do seem concerned about how other people live their lives.

Huh. TIL.

I think it's probably because male, female and gender are all nouns that you can naturally follow that to using transgender as a noun. Etymologically it makes sense in my head and I don't understand why it's offensive, but TIL none-the-less.

Don't know the official reason people don't like it as I'm not actively involved (surprise, surprise!) in any activist groups. But to me it's a word that doesn't work very well because it makes it sound almost as if being transgender is something that was done to them? "Oh no, I've been transgendered!!!" Feels like it plays into the semantic web of transphobic implications about it not being "natural" and people being tricked into it by some evil conspiracy of doctors or psychiatrists like the phobefems and religionists argue. It doesn't upset me personally, but I've always thought it sounds awkward.

That's actually the general consensus.

Transgender shouldn't be a noun. That sounds weird.

Anyways, thanks. I'll just not use transgenderism then so no transphobia is assumed.

So i am actually then a woman? (Ofc i am a woman but i hope you get it)

I feel like I'm missing some context here.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

Trans folks sure do seem concerned about how other people speak.

Cis folks sure do seem concerned about how other people live their lives.

Don't know the official reason people don't like it as I'm not actively involved (surprise, surprise!) in any activist groups. But to me it's a word that doesn't work very well because it makes it sound almost as if being transgender is something that was done to them? "Oh no, I've been transgendered!!!" Feels like it plays into the semantic web of transphobic implications about it not being "natural" and people being tricked into it by some evil conspiracy of doctors or psychiatrists like the phobefems and religionists argue. It doesn't upset me personally, but I've always thought it sounds awkward.

That's actually the general consensus.

So i am actually then a woman? (Ofc i am a woman but i hope you get it)

I feel like I'm missing some context here.

You know that is not true. Not all cisgender people meddle in other people’s personal lives...

[Grenartia]

Cis folks sure do seem concerned about how other people live their lives.



That's actually the general consensus.



I feel like I'm missing some context here.

You know that is not true. Not all cisgender people meddle in other people’s personal lives...

I think you missed the point of saying that. It wasn't to make a factual claim. It was to point out the stupidity of Oudland's statement, by making a similarly-stupid one.

[Philjia]

Trans folks sure do seem concerned about how other people speak.

The one who controls the language, controls the story. Asylum seeker or immigrant? Liberal or commie? Patriot or nationalist? He or she?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It sucks, I know, and I got into a debate, online, on whether trans people have an obligation to explain themselves and basic trans terms to cis people. I maintained that I don't have to teach you since google is free.

This attitude is completely understandable, as I'm sure trans people get waaaay too many questions from cis people that could be answered by a simple google search. But it really is best to educate people about these things if you can, especially as if they google search it they're as likely to find a transphobic website as one which honestly and respectfully explains trans issues and trans terminology.

I honestly either ask my trans friends or ask here/internet search when I have a doubt or a question. So far, they have always been very nice about answering any question I may have. But I agree in that trans people do not owe anyone explanations or education about transgender issues as yes, the info is out there, online. Unless, of course, you personally feel like teaching others. But it is not your obligation.

[Khasinkonia]

Trans folks sure do seem concerned about how other people speak.

The one who controls the language, controls the story. Asylum seeker or immigrant? Liberal or commie? Patriot or nationalist? He or she?

Doubleplusgoodthink ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

This attitude is completely understandable, as I'm sure trans people get waaaay too many questions from cis people that could be answered by a simple google search. But it really is best to educate people about these things if you can, especially as if they google search it they're as likely to find a transphobic website as one which honestly and respectfully explains trans issues and trans terminology.

I honestly either ask my trans friends or ask here/internet search when I have a doubt or a question. So far, they have always been very nice about answering any question I may have. But I agree in that trans people do not owe anyone explanations or education about transgender issues as yes, the info is out there, online. Unless, of course, you personally feel like teaching others. But it is not your obligation.

I believe when if society is going to adopt more of an individualist approach to gender, asking individuals who are gender non-conforming is the best way to learn. At least in my case, as the opinions on these issues, even within the trans community is not universally agreed upon.