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Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What should the first subtitle of our next thread be?

Trans Men Are Not Women
23
24%
Anti-Cistamines
10
10%
Please Don't Deadnaming Eve
3
3%
Is This Destroying My Free Speech
8
8%
We Know More About This Than You
11
11%
HRT And Crumpets
26
27%
Pro-Nouns & Anti-Verbs
16
16%
 
Total votes : 97

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Bienenhalde
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Postby Bienenhalde » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:57 pm

Soyouso wrote:I think it does nonbinary people more justice to refer to their identity as a gender identity instead of a new gender. The two binary sexes, male and female, do not stop nonbinary people from existing, it actually is the reason why it's possible. I know the word gender has become used the same as identity, but I think saying identity makes more sense, because it is based on the existence of the two biological sexes.

Cisgender is a gender identity, meaning their identity matches with their birth sex. MtF and FtM transgender is when the gender identity is the opposite of what you were born with. Agender is when your identity is neither. Any sort of genderfluid is when the identity switches between __________ states. I am bigender, meaning my identity is both male and female, though I'm technically genderfluid with how mine works. You can apply this to any gender identity that is an actual gender identity. Nonbinary identities are basically just a way for people describe gender dysphoria that doesn't fit into strictly male or strictly female, dysphoria being what causes people to not mentally be what they were born as.

I think we should start explaining it to people this way, I think it would makes more sense to people who've never heard of it.


I think I agree. This seems like a very good explanation. And while its true that some non-Western cultures have the concept of a "third gender" to explain transgender identity, this really does not justify the absurd assertion of some Westerners that their are infinite possible genders. People might not necessarily be exclusively masculine or exclusively feminine, but the trend of some people claiming to represent an entirely new gender seems to be a sign of narcissism and the excessive individualism of contemporary Western society. And that kind of behavior also feeds transphobia, making things worse for people who seriously identify as transgender. And in this context I think Soyouso's above explanation is helpful for clarification.
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Val Halla
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Postby Val Halla » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:59 pm

My appointment was today. I'm left with mix feelings. Everything was clear, open, no pointless shit and no transphobic stuff. The lady was nice.

The problem is... that the waiting list for a doctors appointment is very long. And the endocrinologist, even longer
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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:06 pm

The Florence Union wrote:What is the common thought across the Transgender or 1. LGBTQUA$BI community about swapping genders or making the change at a young age? For instance there is a seven year old girl in Texas who was a boy and became a girl at around age 6.

2. Personally, I think such a move is quite drastic and can lead to huge mistakes. If I got my way when I was three, 3. I would be a border collie right now. Or a girl. 4. Young people aren't mature enough to decide what course of action they want to take in their life. Such a well thought out move is only possible given the proper education and growing up. A kid at age 7 doesn't even have a proper grasp of morals, religion, politics and language, let alone gender or expression. 5. Encouraging your kid to chop their balls off at age 6 is as bad (if not worse) 6. then indoctrinating your kid into whatever religion and politic stand point you go by. Such a move could lead to huge regrets later in life when you realize you have a hard on for girls and your no longer into barbie dolls and long hair.

But I digress.

7. I'm curios on thoughts from actual Trans people on this subject, and that's my bad if someone has already asked this question because it probably already has but I am too lazy to read back and search for it.

FAKE NEWS article about this kid and 8. trannie bathrooms.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/03/health/tr ... index.html


1. Is that a dollar sign in there?

2. Nothing majorly happens until 16, ffs, and even that's just hormones. We literally let people make life and death decisions at that age, so I see no harm in letting them choose to have HRT.

3. Gender =/= species.

4. Nobody's really disputing that. But considering that nothing except wearing different clothes and being called a new name and different pronouns happens until puberty (and when that happens, its just delayed until they can actually make an informed decision as to whether or not they want HRT, i.e., 16), what's the harm in letting them explore their identity?

5. The absolute earliest SRS has ever happened was age 16, and that was a special circumstance in Germany. The minimum age in the US is a hard 18, and its impossible to imagine that being dropped by 12 years, or even as little as 2.

6. But indocrinating them into a gender they might not want, based on the configuration of their sex organs at birth is totally A-ok, right?

7. This topic (as well as everything you said) comes up so much, I could address it in my sleep. And I practically just did.

8. Look, I don't give a shit if you're pro or anti trans, but that word is a slur on par with the word n*gger, and I will politely ask you only once to refrain from using it in this thread again.
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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:07 pm

Philjia wrote:On a miscellaneous positive note, two hundred record labels and artists have agreed to donate 100% of their proceeds from tomorrows Bandcamp sales to the Transgender Law Centre. Bandcamp themselves will be donating 100% of their share of the proceeds from any sale, regardless of the artist, to the TLC.


Woohoo!
Impeach Humanity, Legalize Death Stars, Life is TheftWis/Gren 2016 Something all cisgender allies should start doing. I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith. ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧
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Please use they/them/their when referencing me, as I do NOT appreciate the other pronouns.
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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:09 pm

Val Halla wrote:My appointment was today. I'm left with mix feelings. Everything was clear, open, no pointless shit and no transphobic stuff. The lady was nice.

The problem is... that the waiting list for a doctors appointment is very long. And the endocrinologist, even longer


:hug: At least they didn't treat you like shit.
Impeach Humanity, Legalize Death Stars, Life is TheftWis/Gren 2016 Something all cisgender allies should start doing. I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith. ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧
"Don't take life so serious. It isn't permanent."-Dyakovo
I'm a pansexual Androgyne. Also a Christian.
Please use they/them/their when referencing me, as I do NOT appreciate the other pronouns.
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Serrus
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Postby Serrus » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:34 pm

Grenartia wrote:
Val Halla wrote:My appointment was today. I'm left with mix feelings. Everything was clear, open, no pointless shit and no transphobic stuff. The lady was nice.

The problem is... that the waiting list for a doctors appointment is very long. And the endocrinologist, even longer


:hug: At least they didn't treat you like shit.

Agreed. Here, take my :hug: too!
Grenartia wrote:
The Florence Union wrote:What is the common thought across the Transgender or 1. LGBTQUA$BI community about swapping genders or making the change at a young age? For instance there is a seven year old girl in Texas who was a boy and became a girl at around age 6.

2. Personally, I think such a move is quite drastic and can lead to huge mistakes. If I got my way when I was three, 3. I would be a border collie right now. Or a girl. 4. Young people aren't mature enough to decide what course of action they want to take in their life. Such a well thought out move is only possible given the proper education and growing up. A kid at age 7 doesn't even have a proper grasp of morals, religion, politics and language, let alone gender or expression. 5. Encouraging your kid to chop their balls off at age 6 is as bad (if not worse) 6. then indoctrinating your kid into whatever religion and politic stand point you go by. Such a move could lead to huge regrets later in life when you realize you have a hard on for girls and your no longer into barbie dolls and long hair.

But I digress.

7. I'm curios on thoughts from actual Trans people on this subject, and that's my bad if someone has already asked this question because it probably already has but I am too lazy to read back and search for it.

FAKE NEWS article about this kid and 8. trannie bathrooms.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/03/health/tr ... index.html


1. Is that a dollar sign in there?

2. Nothing majorly happens until 16, ffs, and even that's just hormones. We literally let people make life and death decisions at that age, so I see no harm in letting them choose to have HRT.

3. Gender =/= species.

4. Nobody's really disputing that. But considering that nothing except wearing different clothes and being called a new name and different pronouns happens until puberty (and when that happens, its just delayed until they can actually make an informed decision as to whether or not they want HRT, i.e., 16), what's the harm in letting them explore their identity?

5. The absolute earliest SRS has ever happened was age 16, and that was a special circumstance in Germany. The minimum age in the US is a hard 18, and its impossible to imagine that being dropped by 12 years, or even as little as 2.

6. But indocrinating them into a gender they might not want, based on the configuration of their sex organs at birth is totally A-ok, right?

7. This topic (as well as everything you said) comes up so much, I could address it in my sleep. And I practically just did.

8. Look, I don't give a shit if you're pro or anti trans, but that word is a slur on par with the word n*gger, and I will politely ask you only once to refrain from using it in this thread again.

About 8: Reporting now.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:41 pm

The Florence Union wrote:What is the common thought across the Transgender or LGBTQUA$BI community about swapping genders or making the change at a young age? For instance there is a seven year old girl in Texas who was a boy and became a girl at around age 6.

Personally, I think such a move is quite drastic and can lead to huge mistakes. If I got my way when I was three, I would be a border collie right now. Or a girl. Young people aren't mature enough to decide what course of action they want to take in their life. Such a well thought out move is only possible given the proper education and growing up. A kid at age 7 doesn't even have a proper grasp of morals, religion, politics and language, let alone gender or expression. Encouraging your kid to chop their balls off at age 6 is as bad (if not worse) then indoctrinating your kid into whatever religion and politic stand point you go by. Such a move could lead to huge regrets later in life when you realize you have a hard on for girls and your no longer into barbie dolls and long hair.

But I digress.

I'm curios on thoughts from actual Trans people on this subject, and that's my bad if someone has already asked this question because it probably already has but I am too lazy to read back and search for it.

FAKE NEWS article about this kid and trannie bathrooms.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/03/health/tr ... index.html

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:32 pm

Grenartia wrote:Something I saw on FB that's relevant to the discussion we had yesterday:

(Image)


This is kind of grave-digging but this is a rather demanding thing to ask of people. Dating isn't exactly an easy thing for cis-people either, running out a list of deal-breakers as a prelude to dating someone is a bit ridiculous.

Also, not a shitty dating policy if you want to have children.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:51 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Grenartia wrote:Something I saw on FB that's relevant to the discussion we had yesterday:

(Image)


This is kind of grave-digging but this is a rather demanding thing to ask of people. Dating isn't exactly an easy thing for cis-people either, running out a list of deal-breakers as a prelude to dating someone is a bit ridiculous.

Also, not a shitty dating policy if you want to have children.

Considering this was discussing people who insist that trans individuals reveal they are trans on basically the first date, your point is kinda silly. Dating may be hard for cis-individuals, it can be deadly for those who are trans.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:14 pm

Neutraligon wrote:Considering this was discussing people who insist that trans individuals reveal they are trans on basically the first date, your point is kinda silly. Dating may be hard for cis-individuals, it can be deadly for those who are trans.


To be fair, it's a pretty important thing to know. I mean, what are you going to do, keep it secret until you're in bed? That's not going to go over well.

Would you rather find out that the person you've been dating hates trans-people months into seeing them? Is that fair to you? Is that fair to them?

Honestly, the best idea would simply to not date people you haven't gotten to know properly. Which is something I would say to anyone, sex traffickers are a thing, psychos are a thing.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Inzunza
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Postby Inzunza » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:29 pm

I'm not here to belittle those who are transgender or identify with a completely different gender, but because I'm pretty ignorant (and also because I want to get my total forum post numbers up, so please be patient with me).

That being said, I don't understand the identifications of gender beyond being male or female. If you were born female but want to be male and have a sex change, good on you; I'm glad you were able to get said sex change. However, terms like "bi-gender" or "gender fluid" baffle me. What defines a trait of the opposite gender? If you have female genitalia and don't like wearing a dress but prefer wearing men's clothing, then wear men's clothing. If you want to wear a dress and have male genitalia, then wear a dress. Society shouldn't dictate what you should and should not do, but at the same time I don't think you should have a term to justify wanting to do what you please.

To me, extensive classifications are just... excessive. But then again, I'm pretty ignorant on the topic matter. *shrug*
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The United Colonies of Earth
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Postby The United Colonies of Earth » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:26 pm

Inzunza wrote:I'm not here to belittle those who are transgender or identify with a completely different gender, but because I'm pretty ignorant (and also because I want to get my total forum post numbers up, so please be patient with me).

That being said, I don't understand the identifications of gender beyond being male or female. If you were born female but want to be male and have a sex change, good on you; I'm glad you were able to get said sex change. However, terms like "bi-gender" or "gender fluid" baffle me. What defines a trait of the opposite gender? If you have female genitalia and don't like wearing a dress but prefer wearing men's clothing, then wear men's clothing. If you want to wear a dress and have male genitalia, then wear a dress. Society shouldn't dictate what you should and should not do, but at the same time I don't think you should have a term to justify wanting to do what you please.

To me, extensive classifications are just... excessive. But then again, I'm pretty ignorant on the topic matter. *shrug*

So am I. I don't know much about it beyond a surface skim from pro-trans groups. But I generally accept it and have developed odd, possibly nonsensical explanations for it in my head.
I think the existence of genderfluidity and bigender people comes, fundamentally, from some structures in the brain which activate in different ways due to hormonal changes, so fundamentally people who identify that way sense something really rather different from being men or women who do something different from what their prescribed gender does and need a term to define it. I for one am perfectly chill as a dude but don't mind wearing ladies' stuff; and I feel like a dude all the time.

And I get why you might be confused- kind of? Self-expression is a freedom which ideally requires no explanation. Extensive classifications can be confusing but they can also be useful. I mean, otherwise we wouldn't have categorized the occurrence of 55 separate cases in the world's languages. And like you, I am ignorant on this matter and am probably standing on the high peak of Mount Stupid, looking up at the slopes of Mount Wisdom as the blood drains from my face. I concede my previous paragraph to anyone who has a better explanation of the matter than I do, and defer to their wisdom.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:43 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Considering this was discussing people who insist that trans individuals reveal they are trans on basically the first date, your point is kinda silly. Dating may be hard for cis-individuals, it can be deadly for those who are trans.


To be fair, it's a pretty important thing to know. I mean, what are you going to do, keep it secret until you're in bed? That's not going to go over well.

Would you rather find out that the person you've been dating hates trans-people months into seeing them? Is that fair to you? Is that fair to them?

Honestly, the best idea would simply to not date people you haven't gotten to know properly. Which is something I would say to anyone, sex traffickers are a thing, psychos are a thing.

First why do you assume they will wait until sex to tell? Would I rather find out months later, no which is why the person not in danger of being killed needs to explain as per the thing you where responding to. It is not fair to the trans individual to expect them to out themselves when doing so can actually place them in severe danger. ...What do you think dating is? Dating is about getting to know the person "properly."
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Gim
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Postby Gim » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:48 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Considering this was discussing people who insist that trans individuals reveal they are trans on basically the first date, your point is kinda silly. Dating may be hard for cis-individuals, it can be deadly for those who are trans.


To be fair, it's a pretty important thing to know. I mean, what are you going to do, keep it secret until you're in bed? That's not going to go over well.

Would you rather find out that the person you've been dating hates trans-people months into seeing them? Is that fair to you? Is that fair to them?

Honestly, the best idea would simply to not date people you haven't gotten to know properly. Which is something I would say to anyone, sex traffickers are a thing, psychos are a thing.


Yes, I'd talk with the person for a while, and, a few days later, I'd confess. I think that is etiquette, since there might be a case where the person might not like T-gender people.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:49 pm

Inzunza wrote:I'm not here to belittle those who are transgender or identify with a completely different gender, but because I'm pretty ignorant (and also because I want to get my total forum post numbers up, so please be patient with me).

That being said, I don't understand the identifications of gender beyond being male or female. If you were born female but want to be male and have a sex change, good on you; I'm glad you were able to get said sex change. However, terms like "bi-gender" or "gender fluid" baffle me. What defines a trait of the opposite gender? If you have female genitalia and don't like wearing a dress but prefer wearing men's clothing, then wear men's clothing. If you want to wear a dress and have male genitalia, then wear a dress. Society shouldn't dictate what you should and should not do, but at the same time I don't think you should have a term to justify wanting to do what you please.

To me, extensive classifications are just... excessive. But then again, I'm pretty ignorant on the topic matter. *shrug*

Not sure how well I can explain for people with genders but for me I am trans because I don't have a gender. That is something that also exists, and makes having a gender at all really confusing to me. I can't understand what it feels like to feel like a man or feel like a woman or to feel anything. My lack of gender means I cannot feel dysphoria at all, even if I were to wake up in a body of the opposite sex. It also means I have serious issues understanding a society that tends to be rather highly gendered. There are a ton of societal expectations I simply do not understand because they deal with treating people differently based on presented gender.
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Inzunza
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Postby Inzunza » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:04 am

Neutraligon wrote:Not sure how well I can explain for people with genders but for me I am trans because I don't have a gender. That is something that also exists, and makes having a gender at all really confusing to me. I can't understand what it feels like to feel like a man or feel like a woman or to feel anything. My lack of gender means I cannot feel dysphoria at all, even if I were to wake up in a body of the opposite sex. It also means I have serious issues understanding a society that tends to be rather highly gendered. There are a ton of societal expectations I simply do not understand because they deal with treating people differently based on presented gender.


So what defines gender in general?
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Gim
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Postby Gim » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:06 am

Inzunza wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Not sure how well I can explain for people with genders but for me I am trans because I don't have a gender. That is something that also exists, and makes having a gender at all really confusing to me. I can't understand what it feels like to feel like a man or feel like a woman or to feel anything. My lack of gender means I cannot feel dysphoria at all, even if I were to wake up in a body of the opposite sex. It also means I have serious issues understanding a society that tends to be rather highly gendered. There are a ton of societal expectations I simply do not understand because they deal with treating people differently based on presented gender.


So what defines gender in general?


The sex organs and human behaviour?
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:07 am

Inzunza wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Not sure how well I can explain for people with genders but for me I am trans because I don't have a gender. That is something that also exists, and makes having a gender at all really confusing to me. I can't understand what it feels like to feel like a man or feel like a woman or to feel anything. My lack of gender means I cannot feel dysphoria at all, even if I were to wake up in a body of the opposite sex. It also means I have serious issues understanding a society that tends to be rather highly gendered. There are a ton of societal expectations I simply do not understand because they deal with treating people differently based on presented gender.


So what defines gender in general?

Not an easy thing to explain, and like i said I am likely not the best person to ask. It is like asking what defines you. Is it the body, the personality, your self perception, how society sees you?
Last edited by Neutraligon on Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gim
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Postby Gim » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:08 am

Neutraligon wrote:
Inzunza wrote:
So what defines gender in general?

Not an easy thing to explain, and like i said I am likely not the best person to ask. It is like asking what defines you. Is it the body, the personality, your self perception?


Bingo, except for the self-perception part. However, that is just my opinion.
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Inzunza
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Postby Inzunza » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:21 am

Gim wrote:The sex organs and human behaviour?


I'm told that sexual organs determines an individual's sex rather than gender, my source being my significant other who is almost always on Tumblr. Thus, human behavior shouldn't really define gender.

Neutraligon wrote:Not an easy thing to explain, and like i said I am likely not the best person to ask. It is like asking what defines you. Is it the body, the personality, your self perception?


As mentioned, a body's sexual organs is supposed to be their sex (again, that's what I was told). Personalities vary from person to person, regardless of their gender. That's what makes it a personality. Self perception suffers from a lot of society's imposed burdens (ie, you're not beautiful enough, you need this, you'll be judged if you don't do this etc). Thus, what does it matter? If I want to be a woman, then I'll be a woman. If I want to be a man, I'll be a man. If I want to be a man but also do something super feminine without irony, then I'll do it anyways. However, saying "Gender Fluid" where you gender depends on your mood for that day is just baffling. I don't define my persona based on what color shirt I want to wear, let alone if I'm feeling more feminine or masculine.

People shouldn't have to feel like they have to justify how they... feel. I'm sure what I'm saying is causing several people to roll their eyes, but I admit that I don't get it and I'm having a hard time understanding it. It's possible that I'm entirely wrong, and I'm fine with that. I just can't understand the logic with this spectrum of genders.
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Postby Gim » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:23 am

Inzunza wrote:I'm told that sexual organs determines an individual's sex rather than gender, my source being my significant other who is almost always on Tumblr. Thus, human behavior shouldn't really define gender.



Men like competition; women like gossip. Clear distinction in human behaviour, I think.
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Postby Neutraligon » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:28 am

Gim wrote:
Inzunza wrote:I'm told that sexual organs determines an individual's sex rather than gender, my source being my significant other who is almost always on Tumblr. Thus, human behavior shouldn't really define gender.



Men like competition; women like gossip. Clear distinction in human behaviour, I think.

So why do I see a ton of women loving competition, and hating gossip, and men hating competition and loving gossip?
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Postby Inzunza » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:33 am

My father LOVES gossip, but he's still considers himself a man. Stereotyping the sexes is a poor source for debate.
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Postby Gim » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:48 am

Neutraligon wrote:
Gim wrote:
Men like competition; women like gossip. Clear distinction in human behaviour, I think.

So why do I see a ton of women loving competition, and hating gossip, and men hating competition and loving gossip?


I guess there's a difference in the transgender community.
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Postby Neutraligon » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:57 am

Gim wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:So why do I see a ton of women loving competition, and hating gossip, and men hating competition and loving gossip?


I guess there's a difference in the transgender community.

I am not talking about the trans community.
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