Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[United Muscovite Nations]

What could moderation do about IP tracking? Both websites open you to this kind of attack, it merely requires a determined user who hates trans people.

"[...]Tracking IP addresses and other info isn't as hard as you might think.[...]".

The way NationStates is designed, doxxing other users is like trying to dig on a beach. I had the misfortune of knowing one user that went off the rails and started "doxxing for justice", and it took offsite communications for IP-tracking to work for them.

Then why would you assume that a dating site, which would have far more liability for things like stalking, wouldn't be set up in a similar way?

[RiderSyl]

The way NationStates is designed, doxxing other users is like trying to dig on a beach. I had the misfortune of knowing one user that went off the rails and started "doxxing for justice", and it took offsite communications for IP-tracking to work for them.

Is this a definite? After all this is an anecdote.

I was answering your anecdotal quote with my own anecdote.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I was answering your anecdotal quote with my own anecdote.

Technically Nana's anecdotal quote. So I suppose we're at an impasse.

For the sake of the argument let's assume that you can be tracked via ones IP on NS. My point being; if you are worried about this kind of attack, you may as well never mention the fact that you're trans — if you mention that you're trans on one website, you may as well do so on another.

[RiderSyl]

The way NationStates is designed, doxxing other users is like trying to dig on a beach. I had the misfortune of knowing one user that went off the rails and started "doxxing for justice", and it took offsite communications for IP-tracking to work for them.

Then why would you assume that a dating site, which would have far more liability for things like stalking, wouldn't be set up in a similar way?

I don't assume that. I'm sure they assign a level of liability to the user in the TOS.

[RiderSyl]

I was answering your anecdotal quote with my own anecdote.

Technically Nana's anecdotal quote. So I suppose we're at an impasse.

For the sake of the argument let's assume that you can be tracked via ones IP on NS. My point being; if you are worried about this kind of attack, you may as well never mention the fact that you're trans — if you mention that you're trans on one website, you may as well do so on another.

I don't think you're accounting for individual comfort level, or you don't feel like it matters here. If it's the latter, then, consider the statement "if you're comfortable being naked in your own house, you might as well be naked in another house".

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I don't think you're accounting for individual comfort level, or you don't feel like it matters here. If it's the latter, then, consider the statement "if you're comfortable being naked in your own house, you might as well be naked in another house".

Fair enough, I concede for now.

[Minzerland II]

Not as much as doing the immoral thing and not telling it. I doubt most would be angry about learning that someone is trans before they had sex with them, I'm quite sure most would, however, if they did learn about it after they had been tricked into having sex with them.

..You are aware that telling you are trans has gotten trans individuals beaten up and killed by their partner right? So yes it places them in a great deal of danger. To tell one's partner one is trans is to place a great deal of trust in one's partner, that one's partner will not harm them.

They were already in danger when they entered into a relationship with anyone who acts drastically to transgenderism. Why exactly do they remain in that relationship?

If you're unprepared to inform your partner of your condition, out of fear or anticipation of injury, then perhaps you shouldn't be that person's partner. If you're willing to withhold information that is rather pertinent, such as transgenderism, from your partner, despite knowing of their convictions, then perhaps you shouldn't be their partner. I mean, that, to me, is a good indication of no love for them whatsoever.

[Grenartia]

..You are aware that telling you are trans has gotten trans individuals beaten up and killed by their partner right? So yes it places them in a great deal of danger. To tell one's partner one is trans is to place a great deal of trust in one's partner, that one's partner will not harm them.

They were already in danger when they entered into a relationship with anyone who acts drastically to transgenderism. Why exactly do they remain in that relationship?

If you're unprepared to inform your partner of your condition, out of fear or anticipation of injury, then perhaps you shouldn't be that person's partner. If you're willing to withhold information that is rather pertinent, such as transgenderism, from your partner, despite knowing of their convictions, then perhaps you shouldn't be their partner. I mean, that, to me, is a good indication of no love for them whatsoever.

Its already been explained multiple times in the last few pages the failings of that attitude.

[Minzerland II]

They were already in danger when they entered into a relationship with anyone who acts drastically to transgenderism. Why exactly do they remain in that relationship?

If you're unprepared to inform your partner of your condition, out of fear or anticipation of injury, then perhaps you shouldn't be that person's partner. If you're willing to withhold information that is rather pertinent, such as transgenderism, from your partner, despite knowing of their convictions, then perhaps you shouldn't be their partner. I mean, that, to me, is a good indication of no love for them whatsoever.

Its already been explained multiple times in the last few pages the failings of that attitude.

What are they? Is it that those transgender people would be put in danger? They already have put themselves in danger by engaging in a relationship with someone who could injure them for being transgender. If that is the case, then get out before something drastic happens. If you willingly deceive and trick your partner, despite knowing of their convictions, then I question whether you actually love your partner. This is one of the most selfish things I have ever heard of.

[Grenartia]

Its already been explained multiple times in the last few pages the failings of that attitude.

1. What are they? 2. Is it that those transgender people would be put in danger? 3. They already have put themselves in danger by engaging in a relationship with someone who could injure them for being transgender. 4. If that is the case, then get out before something drastic happens. 5. If you willingly deceive and trick your partner, despite knowing of their convictions, then I question whether you actually love your partner.

1. Mostly the fact that its impossible to tell right away whether or not a potential partner is a transphobic asshole or not, and that finding it out inherently involves trial and error, and yes, forming relationships with people who are potentially transphobic assholes.

2. That's also part of it as well.

3. You say that as if its easy to discover who is and isn't one of those types. It is not, not by a longshot.

4. When we discover they are, we do. The trick is actually finding it out.

5. You say that as if not being open about it from the beginning is malicious.

[Minzerland II]

1. What are they? 2. Is it that those transgender people would be put in danger? 3. They already have put themselves in danger by engaging in a relationship with someone who could injure them for being transgender. 4. If that is the case, then get out before something drastic happens. 5. If you willingly deceive and trick your partner, despite knowing of their convictions, then I question whether you actually love your partner.

1. Mostly the fact that its impossible to tell right away whether or not a potential partner is a transphobic asshole or not, and that finding it out inherently involves trial and error, and yes, forming relationships with people who are potentially transphobic assholes.

2. That's also part of it as well.

Then take the time of day to conduct a test of trial and error before jumping into a relationship with someone you have literally no idea about.

3. You say that as if its easy to discover who is and isn't one of those types. It is not, not by a longshot.

It is called talking and socialising, asking questions isn't too hard to accomplish. I learn about my friends' stances through the same means. I mean, you should get to know your prospective partner before dating them.

Besides, under your criteria, that any potential partner could be a transphobic asshole anyway, you're putting yourself in danger by simply dating.

4. When we discover they are, we do. The trick is actually finding it out.

You should get to know your partner before dating them.

5. You say that as if not being open about it from the beginning is malicious.

I never said it was especially malicious, although that can be the case. I said it was unloving if you join in a relationship with them knowing they object to transgenderism or dating a transgender person, through, y'know, getting to know them. It is also pretty selfish to lie and deceive someone you're meant to trust and love.

[Stalliongrad and Far-Eastern Territories]

The way NationStates is designed, doxxing other users is like trying to dig on a beach. I had the misfortune of knowing one user that went off the rails and started "doxxing for justice", and it took offsite communications for IP-tracking to work for them.

Then why would you assume that a dating site, which would have far more liability for things like stalking, wouldn't be set up in a similar way?

Dating sites inherently exist to set up real-world encounters between people. If I were a deranged transphobic murderer, it's the perfect tool to use to lure someone into thinking they've been accepted, and then kill them after meeting IRL. I can't think of a better way of making that easier than trans people having a fucking sign painted over them saying "I'm trans" on those sites.

People get killed in this way. This actually fucking happens.

[The Blaatschapen]

NS, like any game website, has its dangers.

If there are concerns regarding something, bring them up in Technical (or GHR if it is urgent, ie. you're actively being harassed)

[Grenartia]

1. Mostly the fact that its impossible to tell right away whether or not a potential partner is a transphobic asshole or not, and that finding it out inherently involves trial and error, and yes, forming relationships with people who are potentially transphobic assholes.

2. That's also part of it as well.

1. Then take the time of day to conduct a test of trial and error before jumping into a relationship with someone you have literally no idea about.

3. You say that as if its easy to discover who is and isn't one of those types. It is not, not by a longshot.

2. It is called talking and socialising, asking questions isn't too hard to accomplish. I learn about my friends' stances through the same means. I mean, you should get to know your prospective partner before dating them.

3. Besides, under your criteria, that any potential partner could be a transphobic asshole anyway, you're putting yourself in danger by simply dating.

4. When we discover they are, we do. The trick is actually finding it out.

4. You should get to know your partner before dating them.

5. You say that as if not being open about it from the beginning is malicious.

I never said it was especially malicious, although that can be the case. 5. I said it was unloving if you join in a relationship with them knowing they object to transgenderism or dating a transgender person, through, y'know, getting to know them. 6. It is also pretty selfish to lie and deceive someone you're meant to trust and love.

1. You literally missed the point.

2. "Hey, random question, but would you ever kill a trans person?" "Yeah, why do you ask?" "Oh, no reason." Do you honestly think shit works like that?

3. The point is that any potential partner actually could be, but you still have to feel them out to see, and directly asking questions on the first meeting generally doesn't work out too well on that front.

4. There's plenty of shit that you don't find out before dating somebody. That's, like, half the reason people generally don't immediately marry somebody, even if they know them fairly well.

5. Except, no trans person actually does that. Why the fuck would we knowingly date somebody who hates us? The second you find out they're a transphobic asshole, you jump ship. That's common knowledge to do. The trick is to actually find out if they're a transphobic asshole or not, and the most effective way to do that is usually through dating.

6. It is neither lying nor deceiving. its taking a reasonable precaution for personal safety, that's not selfish at all.

[Minzerland II]

1. Then take the time of day to conduct a test of trial and error before jumping into a relationship with someone you have literally no idea about.

2. It is called talking and socialising, asking questions isn't too hard to accomplish. I learn about my friends' stances through the same means. I mean, you should get to know your prospective partner before dating them.

3. Besides, under your criteria, that any potential partner could be a transphobic asshole anyway, you're putting yourself in danger by simply dating.

4. You should get to know your partner before dating them.

I never said it was especially malicious, although that can be the case. 5. I said it was unloving if you join in a relationship with them knowing they object to transgenderism or dating a transgender person, through, y'know, getting to know them. 6. It is also pretty selfish to lie and deceive someone you're meant to trust and love.

1. You literally missed the point.

'Oh, allow me to explain why you missed the point, Minzerland. Otherwise, how are we to conduct a dialogue prop- Oh, nevermind. It is so much easier to simply state you missed the point.'

2. "Hey, random question, but would you ever kill a trans person?" "Yeah, why do you ask?" "Oh, no reason." Do you honestly think shit works like that?

t. someone who hasn't had a real conversation in their life, apparently.

3. The point is that any potential partner actually could be, but you still have to feel them out to see, and directly asking questions on the first meeting generally doesn't work out too well on that front.

The hypothetical that arose from the beginning of this discussion was a transgender person lying, tricking or deceiving their partner about their condition as a transgender person, despite knowing full well of their convictions; as far as I can tell. Therefore, why have you not gauged out information on whether they view transgender people negatively in the beginning? And if danger is a concern, then why have you put yourself in danger by dating or dating someone who is rather hateful of transgender people?

4. There's plenty of shit that you don't find out before dating somebody. That's, like, half the reason people generally don't immediately marry somebody, even if they know them fairly well.

People often search for partners by searching for people who have common interests, dislikes and likes. If you are a transgender person, whether or not they like or dislike transgenderism seems to be a rather pertinent question to ask, no?

5. Except, no trans person actually does that. Why the fuck would we knowingly date somebody who hates us? The second you find out they're a transphobic asshole, you jump ship. That's common knowledge to do. The trick is to actually find out if they're a transphobic asshole or not,

That is the whole hypothetical situation this argument is predicated upon.

and the most effective way to do that is usually through dating.

Prove it.

6. It is neither lying nor deceiving, its taking a reasonable precaution for personal safety, that's not selfish at all.

Lying by omission does not make it any less a lie, nor does deceiving by omission make it any less deceitful. It is pretty selfish, you take no consideration for your partner whatsoever in a fucking relationship.

[Val Halla]

Appointment tomorrow. I dunno if they have my blood but it apparently doesn't really matter, which kinda shows it doesn't mean anything imo

[Liriena]

Appointment tomorrow. I dunno if they have my blood but it apparently doesn't really matter, which kinda shows it doesn't mean anything imo

NHS being silly about this stuff, as usual?

Also, yay! Best of luck!

[Val Halla]

Appointment tomorrow. I dunno if they have my blood but it apparently doesn't really matter, which kinda shows it doesn't mean anything imo

NHS being silly about this stuff, as usual?

Also, yay! Best of luck!

I dunno. When I rang to ask if they had it, they said it doesn't matter

[Liriena]

NHS being silly about this stuff, as usual?

Also, yay! Best of luck!

I dunno. When I rang to ask if they had it, they said it doesn't matter

Ah, well...

[Stalliongrad and Far-Eastern Territories]

NHS being silly about this stuff, as usual?

Also, yay! Best of luck!

I dunno. When I rang to ask if they had it, they said it doesn't matter

Be prepared to pretty much explain your entire life story and answer a load of extremely uncomfortable questions. I had a panic attack during my first appointment.

[Grenartia]

Something I saw on FB that's relevant to the discussion we had yesterday:

[Conservative Hellenic State]

Something I saw on FB that's relevant to the discussion we had yesterday:

(Image)

This is sick everything with this world is not clean anymore they took innocent recreation and they made it into a money taking industry they took the purity of the human body and they deformed it into a plastic mutilation they took the male and female gender purity and they deformed it in every way possible they took the human free ideology and they transformed it to sick communisms and fascisms DAMN THIS WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN!

[Grenartia]

Something I saw on FB that's relevant to the discussion we had yesterday:

(Image)

This is sick everything with this world is not clean anymore they took innocent recreation and they made it into a money taking industry they took the purity of the human body and they deformed it into a plastic mutilation they took the male and female gender purity and they deformed it in every way possible they took the human free ideology and they transformed it to sick communisms and fascisms DAMN THIS WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN!

You really need to either learn how to stop rambling, or learn how to do so coherently.

[Conservative Hellenic State]

This is sick everything with this world is not clean anymore they took innocent recreation and they made it into a money taking industry they took the purity of the human body and they deformed it into a plastic mutilation they took the male and female gender purity and they deformed it in every way possible they took the human free ideology and they transformed it to sick communisms and fascisms DAMN THIS WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN!

You really need to either learn how to stop rambling, or learn how to do so coherently.

Am I wrong somewhere?

[United Muscovite Nations]

You really need to either learn how to stop rambling, or learn how to do so coherently.

Am I wrong somewhere?

I can't even really tell what you're saying.