Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Torrocca]

Trans-trending is something that I've seen more transphobic people complain about than actually witnessed myself, and I suspect this phenomenon is almost entirely an internet act. It's not important to trans rights except when it serves as fuel for transphobes, in which case, the transphobes are the problem and not the “trans-trenders.” people are right to bring up gatekeeping because this is just the same old mentality where trans people are dirty autogynephiles until they prove themselves trans enough to earn some sort of medal.

In regard to being friends with transphobes, if your friends believe transgender people are inferior or ought to die, then they are objectively a horrible person and no amount of apologetics is going to change that.

Again, I’m not telling you to befriend people that consider you inferior or want you to die (because that’d be Stockholm Syndrome and would require psychiatric help), just that an ally that doesn’t 100% agree no questions asked isn’t a fucking enemy.

You're missing the point here. We're saying that it's pretty fucking shitty to say you like somebody who's gone on record and done morally reprehensible shit like laughing at children getting napalmed or telling people to go kill themselves because of who they were born as.

[Grenartia]

Look, here's the thing. Most cis people have a very different idea of what it means to be non-binary than what trans people have. Cis people tend to think it means you simply reject gender roles (this leads to shit like Cathy Fucking Brennan of all people calling herself NB), because of course, cis people can barely comprehend binary trans existence. But I absolutely do not think this can be brushed off as NB itself becoming "I'm different look at me!", and I'm kind of insulted at the very thought of it.

I realise I may not have clearly worded my thoughts throughout. I more mean it in the way that the term sort of seems to me to have been appropriated by some celebrities for attention rather than understanding the meaning of nonbinary. I can’t read minds, so I don’t entirely know, and media coverage is certainly flawed, but I just get some funky vibes from a few of the celebrity claims.

Fair enough. And, to be fair, I know you didn't mean anything maliciously. Its just the sentiment in general that gets to me.

Look, here's the thing. Most cis people have a very different idea of what it means to be non-binary than what trans people have. Cis people tend to think it means you simply reject gender roles (this leads to shit like Cathy Fucking Brennan of all people calling herself NB), because of course, cis people can barely comprehend binary trans existence. But I absolutely do not think this can be brushed off as NB itself becoming "I'm different look at me!", and I'm kind of insulted at the very thought of it.



Fuck that nonsense. Sure, there's a non-zero amount, but its nowhere near the pervasive problem the anti-trans community wants us to believe it is.



Honest fucking question, but how do you KNOW the people you know are just "doing it for attention"?



Speaking as someone who *HAS* to present "entirely heteronormatively" due to terrible family members, I have to speak up here, and ask how you can be so fucking sure there aren't other factors at play? How do you know for sure that your conclusions about them are correct?

You and Tars are acting like you're both fucking omnipotent mindreaders, when you're only just being gatekeepers.



Fucking thank you.



This, this fucking right here, is why the "transtrender" narrative and gatekeeping are so fucking harmful. Shame on people who unironically parrot that shit.



Funny, considering you yourself have been one of the most vehement anti-gatekeepers on this forum that I've seen. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

You're welcome friendo!

Although your point on Cathy Brennan reminded me of an acquaintance I knew, she said that she used to identify as non-binary for "political reasons", in a post that was about gender essentialism and saying that trans people aren't really their gender, you know, standard TERF business. She's a radical cultural feminist and reasonable on most issues accept for transgender topics.

Fucking yikes, though.

And there probably are cases of people questioning their gender, wondering if they might be trans, but who actually realize they are still cis, but at least they know for sure. I still think it's healthy to question everything especially your gender and sexuality. Maybe those are "trenders" we here so much about, but I don't really notice them or feel like they stole anything from me. To restate my point, the transtrender thing is totally overblown and does not pose a real threat to the trans community. Bigots, TERFs, gender essentialists, and division do.

Exactly.

I realise I may not have clearly worded my thoughts throughout. I more mean it in the way that the term sort of seems to me to have been appropriated by some celebrities for attention rather than understanding the meaning of nonbinary. I can’t read minds, so I don’t entirely know, and media coverage is certainly flawed, but I just get some funky vibes from a few of the celebrity claims.

I think we should take coming out statements seriously and not doubt them. To do otherwise will set a bad precedent.

Indeed.

Proct, I'll get to your incredibly dismissive post on its own.

[Grenartia]

Speaking as someone who *HAS* to present "entirely heteronormatively" due to terrible family members, I have to speak up here, and ask how you can be so fucking sure there aren't other factors at play?

I'd wager that's unlikely. Besides, you don't know the extent of the experiences DI had with these people.

No, I don't, but I'm self-aware enough (thanks, dysphoria) to know I could most certainly be perceived by others around me in the same way. And I cannot allow the attitude that causes that to stand utterly unchallenged.

How do you know for sure that your conclusions about them are correct?

Well, how do you know the same?

I never claimed to.

You and Tars are acting like you're both fucking omnipotent mindreaders,

Objectively false and probably also ironic.

Elaborate.

when you're only just being gatekeepers.

Saying "hey when I was at my university there were some "non-binary" people who blinked into existence then ceased to even remotely connect that to themselves post-University, and also they were patronizing and naive" is gatekeeping now? No, that's just bringing up one's experience with the topic.

Funny, considering you yourself have been one of the most vehement anti-gatekeepers on this forum that I've seen. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

Gatekeeping is a necessary tactic - one that must be applied appropriately, but early, so those who you'd need to gatekeep in the future don't become too powerful or anything. For example, it's the problem feminism has with various groups, namely (but not remotely exclusively) the radfems. They weren't booted out soon enough and now they're here to stay and basically make things worse for everyone.

Gatekeeping the edgy teens who'll definitely snap out of being a xe/xer pangender or what have you in like a year is a necessity. It's not an inherent evil, it's a tool.

Out of curiosity, what do you even think gatekeeping means in this context?

[Grenartia]

I could go further but the fact that you continue to host a "memorial" to a raging transphobe in your signature is enough of a burn in its own right :^3

TIL that if you like a person and miss their presence you must 1000% agree with all their positions on literally everything ever

good fucking lord

You know, I used to be one of his friends. And even I'm glad he's out. And not just for petty personal reasons. Dude had (and has) major issues.

Did he ever tell you how he got kicked out of the Excalibur Squadron RP? I doubt its a story the Jedi would tell you.

I mean, you say that, but then I have these DMs from that guy (Balk) himself showing otherwise.

I’m not debating the questionable content of his DMs, but that looks like a shitty memer straight outta Discord.

As someone who used to be his friend, I can pretty much confirm its him. Writing style fits, down to a T.

I didn’t say for you to go fall in love with somebody who would literally murder you, I simply stated that just because somebody does not agree with every single aspect of the trans community, it doesn’t mean they are transphobes that want them all dead.

My friends are on various points of the political spectrum, and while I do not always agree with their stances, they remain my friends and talking comrades.

Am I friends with people on different points of a political spectrum? Yes, however, I cannot be friends with someone who doesn't respect trans people, because I am a trans person.

I'd say most of my friends are leftists, only non-leftists I am friends with are liberals. But even leftist is a big group, I'm closer to anarchists and libertarian socialists/communists than Marxist-Leninists and authoritarian socialists.

I'm only friends with people who respect me as a person, and usually right wingers aren't good at that.

Precisely this. And its pretty fucking harmful for someone's mental health for them to befriend people who think of them as subhumans who should die.

Trans-trending is something that I've seen more transphobic people complain about than actually witnessed myself, and I suspect this phenomenon is almost entirely an internet act. It's not important to trans rights except when it serves as fuel for transphobes, in which case, the transphobes are the problem and not the “trans-trenders.” people are right to bring up gatekeeping because this is just the same old mentality where trans people are dirty autogynephiles until they prove themselves trans enough to earn some sort of medal.

^

"Trans-trenders" is more or less a fucking bullshit concept that transphobes like to use to justify their shittiness. "Oh, it's just a phase!" and quotes like that are definitive examples of this exact thing in action, and usually lead to - you guessed it - trans people repressing their identity from a larger audience for fear of further ostracization and abuse from outside actors.

Exactly. Its just another weapon in the gatekeeper's arsenal.

But I absolutely do not think this can be brushed off as NB itself becoming "I'm different look at me!", and I'm kind of insulted at the very thought of it.

If I wanted to be different I’d start by not specifically trying to be different.

Which I don’t.

I just be myself, no matter how many other people enjoy or think one thing or another that I also happen to enjoy or think.

Again, I’m not telling you to befriend people that consider you inferior or want you to die (because that’d be Stockholm Syndrome and would require psychiatric help), just that an ally that doesn’t 100% agree no questions asked isn’t a fucking enemy.

You're missing the point here. We're saying that it's pretty fucking shitty to say you like somebody who's gone on record and done morally reprehensible shit like laughing at children getting napalmed or telling people to go kill themselves because of who they were born as.

Pretty much. Would you trust someone who thinks that not only did Jared Fogle have child porn, but that he literally did nothing wrong, to babysit your children? I fucking wouldn't.

[Dumb Ideologies]

As with the previous discussion on the existence of "trenders" - still want to use the phrase tryongenders dammit - I think there needs to be a bit of nuance rather than a politically-determined absolutist position when it comes to being "friends" with people who are transphobic and whether those who get on well with such people should be outright condemned for it.

There's different tiers of friendship. Most online "friendships" are really low-to-mid tier acquaintances and the added distance that the medium provides negates the necessity of responding to everything that an individual says. It's much easier to bound off the stuff they're saying that you don't like in a particular thread or in a particular discord channel at a particular time and balance that with what the person offers to you overall, whether that be amusement, knowledge of political theory etc. than it would be if you knew them in real life and they didn't moderate their stances around you.

So it's very understandable in particular to miss someone from a forum who was a jerk or a bit of a bigot but whose archive of content as a whole made you laugh, expanded your knowledge or whatever. Humans mourn when something that had value to us is lost, and feelings often don't care about the facts of that person's flaws, particularly as our emotional brains tend to compartmentalize complexity into simplicity.

[Hanafuridake]

a politically-determined absolutist position

What does this even mean?

[Dumb Ideologies]

RE: Above post (can't get the quote function to behave)

That phrase is a bit of clumsy meta-thinking in which I was trying to thematically link several of my recent posts together. You can ignore it without losing much from the rest of the post as its more of a comment on the way people talk in debates than about this particular debate itself.

It's about the "I wouldn't" - - > "nobody should" move and the need to avoid being unreasonably exacting through making excessive and potentially even emotionally manipulative demands.

In the case of previous posts on the "trender" issue, some people agreed, said my logic was sound, and that it summed up something they'd been thinking but not quite able to put into words. So I'm confident it wasn't complete unfounded hogwash.

Some of the most virulent opponents, though, didn't engage with the argumentation at all and tried to disallow it on the grounds that questioning anyone's motivations - even if it is limited to specific individuals not in the thread - is effectively an attack on them personally because someone else might make false claims against them in an entirely separate hypothetical argument. The position that "no one must ever criticise anyone or all are under attack" is already baked-in for them but people who don't share that view are seemingly meant to now retract their views and apologise simply because someone feels potentially marginalised by something that wasn't even actually said? Makes my brain hurt even thinking about it.

Similarly, it's fine to not want to be friendly with people who are open transphobes, heck I probably wouldn't be able to manage it offline so I see where you're all coming from to an extent, but the demand that no-one should or they're automatically bad people (when people's relations with others are naturally their own business and based on their own needs and wants) is dodgy for the reasons I explained in the post you quoted a snippet from.

What I'm essentially going after here is the attitude that "you can't even discuss that topic because it disagrees with my politics and I'll feel attacked even though you aren't personally attacking me", "you can't have those friends because it disagrees with my politics and I'll feel attacked even though you aren't personally attacking me" etc etc.

It's got something of the abusive-partner logic about it. For me, if you speak broadly positively about trans rights when your opinion is solicited and when there's not an excessively high cost for doing so that's enough to not be self-hating or a bad ally. But it sometimes seems that for many people tangential actions, non-actions, your friends, even debate positions that you don't hold but other people might make, all need to be comprehensively scrutinised on an ongoing basis to make sure you're a REAL supporter and not a secret bigot-by-vague-association.

Apologies for the long post and multiple edits, trying to make a complicated point on phone during quiet moments at work is not an easy thing. Hopefully at least semi-coherent now.

Also due notice that further replies from me on this will have to wait a bit, I've uh..been slightly slacking in doing the basics in work and home life over the past couple of days to work out these long NSG posts...

[Aellex]

I could go further but the fact that you continue to host a "memorial" to a raging transphobe in your signature is enough of a burn in its own right :^3

TIL that if you like a person and miss their presence you must 1000% agree with all their positions on literally everything ever

good fucking lord

Guilt by association, fam. Gotta go full Chinese government on wrong-think to make sure only "correct thoughts" are allowed.

I mean, you say that, but then I have these DMs from that guy (Balk) himself showing otherwise.

Leaving aside how low and petty it is to bring outside NS bullshit here, I'm sure those are tots unedited and shit and you'd neeeeeeva fake shit for drama and pity points. :^)

[Tarsonis]

Transtrenders are a thing, and I think more common than the group would like to believe.

Fuck that nonsense. Sure, there's a non-zero amount, but its nowhere near the pervasive problem the anti-trans community wants us to believe it is.

Well sure, I’m not trying to pull the “it’s all just a fad” nonsense, but neither is it just 3 guys in Iowa ruining it for everyone. Especially in the University sphere, there are people who treat it like a fad, and both sides need to be more realistic about the size of their presence. Because saying everyone’s a transtrender or denying their existence makes both sides come off as desperate and willfully delusional.

It’s not gatekeeping. There are people out there who only identify as Trans because they think it’s trendy or because it endears them to people or they get attention they want. I’m not making this up wholesale, I personally know people like this. I’m not saying it’s all, or most or even a sizable portion of the community, but they do exist.

Honest fucking question, but how do you KNOW the people you know are just "doing it for attention"?

helps that I know then extremely well, and can make a more than reasonable conclusion.

You and Tars are acting like you're both fucking omnipotent mindreaders, when you're only just being gatekeepers.

There is no Tars, only Zuul .

[Khasinkonia]

I think my general feeling regarding this whole topic is as follows:
It’s not so much that I don’t believe nonbinary people exist, it’s that I’ve seen and heard of a few cases of cis people mistaking plain gender nonconformity for their being nonbinary, which mucks up the waters just a little. Not nearly as much as I think some people would like to have us believe, but I think it’s happened now and again. Is that a reason to deny claims? No. One might have suspicions, but it’s impossible to know what someone else is feeling unless they lay it out for you, and even then it’s tough. I suppose at the moment I’ve got a bit of a truscum chip on my shoulder that needs to heal some thanks to that fellow who pretended to be trans to try and get into my pants(he 100% admitted it btw, no assumptions there), so do bear in mind that I’m currently coming from an extremely relatively conservative viewpoint. I’m still trying to be as accepting as possible, but I was deeply disturbed by that happening, and I know a few people online who’ve had similar experiences. Not necessarily the exact same thing as what we’re talking about, but I’m gonna be honest and say that at the moment my acceptance capacity is in a recovery stage, because I feel like I didn’t question him enough, so for the moment I’ve been erring on the side of caution.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

Transtrenders are a thing, and I think more common than the group would like to believe.

Fuck that nonsense. Sure, there's a non-zero amount, but its nowhere near the pervasive problem the anti-trans community wants us to believe it is.

To be 100% honest, I agree with both of you on every count save for "fuck that nonsense". They definitely exist (based on the fact that several people in this thread, myself included, have personally met people who would fit the description of "transtrenders"), and there are more of them than some say (based on the fact that there is at least one person in this thread who is continuing to argue that transtrenders don't exist at all) but they aren't as common as some others say (do I really need a citation for this one?). Therefore, both of you are right - most trans people are sincere about being trans, but there are some that aren't.

[Torrocca]

I mean, you say that, but then I have these DMs from that guy (Balk) himself showing otherwise.

Leaving aside how low and petty it is to bring outside NS bullshit here, I'm sure those are tots unedited and shit and you'd neeeeeeva fake shit for drama and pity points. :^)

I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to be bothered with faking something like this.

[Tarsonis]

Leaving aside how low and petty it is to bring outside NS bullshit here, I'm sure those are tots unedited and shit and you'd neeeeeeva fake shit for drama and pity points. :^)

I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to be bothered with faking something like this.

That’s what a faker would say

[Torrocca]

I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to be bothered with faking something like this.

That’s what a faker would say

Uh huh.

[United Muscovite Nations]

TIL that if you like a person and miss their presence you must 1000% agree with all their positions on literally everything ever

good fucking lord

Guilt by association, fam. Gotta go full Chinese government on wrong-think to make sure only "correct thoughts" are allowed.

I mean, you say that, but then I have these DMs from that guy (Balk) himself showing otherwise.

Leaving aside how low and petty it is to bring outside NS bullshit here, I'm sure those are tots unedited and shit and you'd neeeeeeva fake shit for drama and pity points. :^)

He fully admits to them tbh.

[The Blaatschapen]

I didn’t say for you to go fall in love with somebody who would literally murder you, I simply stated that just because somebody does not agree with every single aspect of the trans community, it doesn’t mean they are transphobes that want them all dead.

My friends are on various points of the political spectrum, and while I do not always agree with their stances, they remain my friends and talking comrades.

<snip>

Isn't that Balk person DOS?

If so, shouldn't we really not be posting their stuff on NS? I seem to recall it being a form of 'posting past ban'

[Tarsonis]

<snip>

Isn't that Balk person DOS?

If so, shouldn't we really not be posting their stuff on NS? I seem to recall it being a form of 'posting past ban'

Psh, you’re not a mod, what would you know .

[The Blaatschapen]

Isn't that Balk person DOS?

If so, shouldn't we really not be posting their stuff on NS? I seem to recall it being a form of 'posting past ban'

Psh, you’re not a mod, what would you know .

Hence the questions

I can also just report it in moderation, but, eh, can't be bothered. I already did a report this month, if I do it too much it makes it look like I want to be involved in moderation again

[Torrocca]

<snip>

Isn't that Balk person DOS?

If so, shouldn't we really not be posting their stuff on NS? I seem to recall it being a form of 'posting past ban'

Oh shit, is it really?

Well, fuck. I had literally no idea about that; it's been removed from my post now, but I'm guessing it's too late anyway since that one got quoted previously.

[The New California Republic]

Isn't that Balk person DOS?

If so, shouldn't we really not be posting their stuff on NS? I seem to recall it being a form of 'posting past ban'

Oh shit, is it really?

Well, fuck.

Well the timestamp on the chat screenshot is from several months ago (from before their ban...?), so...would it still be posting past ban in that case? And since the person who was banned didn't request you to post it for them, then I guess it could be argued that it isn't technically posting past ban?

[Torrocca]

Oh shit, is it really?

Well, fuck.

Well the timestamp on the chat screenshot is from several months ago (from before their ban...?), so...would it still be posting past ban in that case? And since the person who was banned didn't request you to post it for them, then I guess it could be argued that it isn't technically posting past ban?

I mean, I'd sure hope not. The rules on posting past ban don't at all mention anything about simply posting something if it's not on behalf of another banned player. I don't think it could even be argued in good faith that I was posting on his behalf.

[Tarsonis]

Psh, you’re not a mod, what would you know .

Hence the questions

I can also just report it in moderation, but, eh, can't be bothered. I already did a report this month, if I do it too much it makes it look like I want to be involved in moderation again

[Auzkhia]

I think my general feeling regarding this whole topic is as follows:
It’s not so much that I don’t believe nonbinary people exist, it’s that I’ve seen and heard of a few cases of cis people mistaking plain gender nonconformity for their being nonbinary, which mucks up the waters just a little. Not nearly as much as I think some people would like to have us believe, but I think it’s happened now and again. Is that a reason to deny claims? No. One might have suspicions, but it’s impossible to know what someone else is feeling unless they lay it out for you, and even then it’s tough. I suppose at the moment I’ve got a bit of a truscum chip on my shoulder that needs to heal some thanks to that fellow who pretended to be trans to try and get into my pants(he 100% admitted it btw, no assumptions there), so do bear in mind that I’m currently coming from an extremely relatively conservative viewpoint. I’m still trying to be as accepting as possible, but I was deeply disturbed by that happening, and I know a few people online who’ve had similar experiences. Not necessarily the exact same thing as what we’re talking about, but I’m gonna be honest and say that at the moment my acceptance capacity is in a recovery stage, because I feel like I didn’t question him enough, so for the moment I’ve been erring on the side of caution.

Yes, being gender non-conforming and being trans or non-binary are not the same. GNC is gender expression, not identity. These things are not the same.

Mind you, I still think that casting doubt on trans and nonbinary people would be a mistake, in that vein, it's also not a good idea to accuse gnc cisgender people of being eggs, a phrase which here means a person who does not realize they are transgender yet, not the same as being closeted, but being gender non-conforming exists independent of your specific identity, whether or not your agab was correct.

[Khasinkonia]

I think my general feeling regarding this whole topic is as follows:
It’s not so much that I don’t believe nonbinary people exist, it’s that I’ve seen and heard of a few cases of cis people mistaking plain gender nonconformity for their being nonbinary, which mucks up the waters just a little. Not nearly as much as I think some people would like to have us believe, but I think it’s happened now and again. Is that a reason to deny claims? No. One might have suspicions, but it’s impossible to know what someone else is feeling unless they lay it out for you, and even then it’s tough. I suppose at the moment I’ve got a bit of a truscum chip on my shoulder that needs to heal some thanks to that fellow who pretended to be trans to try and get into my pants(he 100% admitted it btw, no assumptions there), so do bear in mind that I’m currently coming from an extremely relatively conservative viewpoint. I’m still trying to be as accepting as possible, but I was deeply disturbed by that happening, and I know a few people online who’ve had similar experiences. Not necessarily the exact same thing as what we’re talking about, but I’m gonna be honest and say that at the moment my acceptance capacity is in a recovery stage, because I feel like I didn’t question him enough, so for the moment I’ve been erring on the side of caution.

Yes, being gender non-conforming and being trans or non-binary are not the same. GNC is gender expression, not identity. These things are not the same.

Mind you, I still think that casting doubt on trans and nonbinary people would be a mistake, in that vein, it's also not a good idea to accuse gnc cisgender people of being eggs, a phrase which here means a person who does not realize they are transgender yet, not the same as being closeted, but being gender non-conforming exists independent of your specific identity, whether or not your agab was correct.

Yeah, I think there seems to be a bit of confusion with gnc vs nb at the moment—quite unfortunate. I don’t like to cast doubt, but with recent experiences in mind, it’s my default at the moment. Would I tell a fellow trans person I don’t know about them? Of course not, because who am I to know. Can I shake the odd intrusive thought? Not at the moment.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Am I an egg?