Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Khasinkonia]

Look, here's the thing. Most cis people have a very different idea of what it means to be non-binary than what trans people have. Cis people tend to think it means you simply reject gender roles (this leads to shit like Cathy Fucking Brennan of all people calling herself NB), because of course, cis people can barely comprehend binary trans existence. But I absolutely do not think this can be brushed off as NB itself becoming "I'm different look at me!", and I'm kind of insulted at the very thought of it.



Fuck that nonsense. Sure, there's a non-zero amount, but its nowhere near the pervasive problem the anti-trans community wants us to believe it is.



Honest fucking question, but how do you KNOW the people you know are just "doing it for attention"?



Speaking as someone who *HAS* to present "entirely heteronormatively" due to terrible family members, I have to speak up here, and ask how you can be so fucking sure there aren't other factors at play? How do you know for sure that your conclusions about them are correct?

You and Tars are acting like you're both fucking omnipotent mindreaders, when you're only just being gatekeepers.



Fucking thank you.



This, this fucking right here, is why the "transtrender" narrative and gatekeeping are so fucking harmful. Shame on people who unironically parrot that shit.



Funny, considering you yourself have been one of the most vehement anti-gatekeepers on this forum that I've seen. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

You're welcome friendo!

Although your point on Cathy Brennan reminded me of an acquaintance I knew, she said that she used to identify as non-binary for "political reasons", in a post that was about gender essentialism and saying that trans people aren't really their gender, you know, standard TERF business. She's a radical cultural feminist and reasonable on most issues accept for transgender topics.

And there probably are cases of people questioning their gender, wondering if they might be trans, but who actually realize they are still cis, but at least they know for sure. I still think it's healthy to question everything especially your gender and sexuality. Maybe those are "trenders" we here so much about, but I don't really notice them or feel like they stole anything from me. To restate my point, the transtrender thing is totally overblown and does not pose a real threat to the trans community. Bigots, TERFs, gender essentialists, and division do.

I realise I may not have clearly worded my thoughts throughout. I more mean it in the way that the term sort of seems to me to have been appropriated by some celebrities for attention rather than understanding the meaning of nonbinary. I can’t read minds, so I don’t entirely know, and media coverage is certainly flawed, but I just get some funky vibes from a few of the celebrity claims.

I think we should take coming out statements seriously and not doubt them. To do otherwise will set a bad precedent.

That certainly makes sense. I suppose there are just some things I’m personally a bit suspicious of, but this is one of the rare occasions where I’ve voiced it because hey, I don’t know for sure, and to claim I did would be stupid.

[Proctopeo]

Rings true to my experience - my uni had five or six "out" trans people when I was there (50/50 on binary/non-binary), then within the next year several entirely heteronormatively presenting "non-binary" people appeared, made lots of noise, then immediately removed any reference to it from their profiles once they left uni and never mentioned it again.

It was quite obviously a form of "play" for them to associate themselves with an edgy and visible minority - they weren't bad people per se but vaguely patronising and insulting like naive self-centred tourists demanding to take part in local ceremonies of which they know nothing.

Speaking as someone who *HAS* to present "entirely heteronormatively" due to terrible family members, I have to speak up here, and ask how you can be so fucking sure there aren't other factors at play?

I'd wager that's unlikely. Besides, you don't know the extent of the experiences DI had with these people.

How do you know for sure that your conclusions about them are correct?

Well, how do you know the same?

You and Tars are acting like you're both fucking omnipotent mindreaders,

Objectively false and probably also ironic.

when you're only just being gatekeepers.

Saying "hey when I was at my university there were some "non-binary" people who blinked into existence then ceased to even remotely connect that to themselves post-University, and also they were patronizing and naive" is gatekeeping now? No, that's just bringing up one's experience with the topic.

Funny, considering you yourself have been one of the most vehement anti-gatekeepers on this forum that I've seen. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

Gatekeeping is a necessary tactic - one that must be applied appropriately, but early, so those who you'd need to gatekeep in the future don't become too powerful or anything. For example, it's the problem feminism has with various groups, namely (but not remotely exclusively) the radfems. They weren't booted out soon enough and now they're here to stay and basically make things worse for everyone.

Gatekeeping the edgy teens who'll definitely snap out of being a xe/xer pangender or what have you in like a year is a necessity. It's not an inherent evil, it's a tool.

[Torrocca]

Speaking as someone who *HAS* to present "entirely heteronormatively" due to terrible family members, I have to speak up here, and ask how you can be so fucking sure there aren't other factors at play?

[url]I'd wager that's unlikely[/url]. Besides, you don't know the extent of the experiences DI had with these people.

You'd be wagering pretty fucking wrongly, then, considering how widespread transphobia happens to be.

[Proctopeo]

[url]I'd wager that's unlikely[/url]. Besides, you don't know the extent of the experiences DI had with these people.

You'd be wagering pretty fucking wrongly, then, considering how widespread transphobia happens to be.

My wagers are always flawless.
I call it talent.

[Torrocca]

You'd be wagering pretty fucking wrongly, then, considering how widespread transphobia happens to be.

My wagers are always flawless.
I call it talent.

I'd call it talentless instead if I were you :^3

[Proctopeo]

My wagers are always flawless.
I call it talent.

I'd call it talentless instead if I were you :^3

I'd call this a "burn" but really you just tossed an ice cube at my window while shouting "heck you".

[Torrocca]

I'd call it talentless instead if I were you :^3

I'd call this a "burn" but really you just tossed an ice cube at my window while shouting "heck you".

I could go further but the fact that you continue to host a "memorial" to a raging transphobe in your signature is enough of a burn in its own right :^3

[Proctopeo]

I'd call this a "burn" but really you just tossed an ice cube at my window while shouting "heck you".

I could go further but the fact that you continue to host a "memorial" to a raging transphobe in your signature is enough of a burn in its own right :^3

TIL that if you like a person and miss their presence you must 1000% agree with all their positions on literally everything ever

good fucking lord

[Torrocca]

I could go further but the fact that you continue to host a "memorial" to a raging transphobe in your signature is enough of a burn in its own right :^3

TIL that if you like a person and miss their presence you must 1000% agree with all their positions on literally everything ever

good fucking lord

Sorry, not sorry, but I don't agree with the notion of liking a person whose views include violence against disenfranchised people, such as trans people. That's a you problem, chief.

[Proctopeo]

TIL that if you like a person and miss their presence you must 1000% agree with all their positions on literally everything ever

good fucking lord

Sorry, not sorry, but I don't agree with the notion of liking a person whose views include violence against disenfranchised people, such as trans people. That's a you problem, chief.

You don't sound like you have many friends. Not even yourself, I'd imagine.

[Torrocca]

Sorry, not sorry, but I don't agree with the notion of liking a person whose views include violence against disenfranchised people, such as trans people. That's a you problem, chief.

You don't sound like you have many friends. Not even yourself, I'd imagine.

Nah, I've got plenty of friends. It just so happens that their views tend to not include things such as telling trans people to go kill themselves. :3

[Western Vale Confederacy]

I could go further but the fact that you continue to host a "memorial" to a raging transphobe in your signature is enough of a burn in its own right :^3

TIL that if you like a person and miss their presence you must 1000% agree with all their positions on literally everything ever

good fucking lord

>when r/prequels has the right meme for your situation

The "If you even remotely question my stances, then you must be burned at the stakes!" seriously needs to fucking stop.

[Torrocca]

TIL that if you like a person and miss their presence you must 1000% agree with all their positions on literally everything ever

good fucking lord

>when r/prequels has the right meme for your situation

The "If you even remotely question my stances, then you must be burned at the stakes!" seriously needs to fucking stop.

TIL'd it's a-okay now to befriend people who've outright told people to kill themselves among many other examples of shittiness

Thanks for showing me the light, WVC. I'm gonna go hug David Duke and cry into his arms while he reads me a bedtime story now, like good friends do.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

>when r/prequels has the right meme for your situation

The "If you even remotely question my stances, then you must be burned at the stakes!" seriously needs to fucking stop.

TIL'd it's a-okay now to befriend people who've outright told people to kill themselves among many other examples of shittiness

Thanks for showing me the light, WVC. I'm gonna go hug David Duke and cry into his arms while he reads me a bedtime story now, like good friends do.

I didn’t say for you to go fall in love with somebody who would literally murder you, I simply stated that just because somebody does not agree with every single aspect of the trans community, it doesn’t mean they are transphobes that want them all dead.

My friends are on various points of the political spectrum, and while I do not always agree with their stances, they remain my friends and talking comrades.

[Torrocca]

-snipped from existence-

[Western Vale Confederacy]

I didn’t say for you to go fall in love with somebody who would literally murder you, I simply stated that just because somebody does not agree with every single aspect of the trans community, it doesn’t mean they are transphobes that want them all dead.

My friends are on various points of the political spectrum, and while I do not always agree with their stances, they remain my friends and talking comrades.

I mean, you say that, but then I have these DMs from that guy (Balk) himself showing otherwise.

I’m not debating the questionable content of his DMs, but that looks like a shitty memer straight outta Discord.

[Torrocca]

I mean, you say that, but then I have these DMs from that guy (Balk) himself showing otherwise.

I’m not debating the questionable content of his DMs, but that looks like a shitty memer straight outta Discord.

Keep in mind that that guy is Balk sending those to me and, no, he's not being a "shitty memer".

[Auzkhia]

TIL'd it's a-okay now to befriend people who've outright told people to kill themselves among many other examples of shittiness

Thanks for showing me the light, WVC. I'm gonna go hug David Duke and cry into his arms while he reads me a bedtime story now, like good friends do.

I didn’t say for you to go fall in love with somebody who would literally murder you, I simply stated that just because somebody does not agree with every single aspect of the trans community, it doesn’t mean they are transphobes that want them all dead.

My friends are on various points of the political spectrum, and while I do not always agree with their stances, they remain my friends and talking comrades.

Am I friends with people on different points of a political spectrum? Yes, however, I cannot be friends with someone who doesn't respect trans people, because I am a trans person.

I'd say most of my friends are leftists, only non-leftists I am friends with are liberals. But even leftist is a big group, I'm closer to anarchists and libertarian socialists/communists than Marxist-Leninists and authoritarian socialists.

I'm only friends with people who respect me as a person, and usually right wingers aren't good at that. I'd like to smash capitalism with my friends, but I guess I can get a drink with a liberal, but it'd be cooler if you were not capitalist.

Only conservatives I can stand are my family, because well, they're family, and you're kinda stuck with them, at least they're not abusive. The only way to get to a conservative is if you are related to them, they only listen to family, so their eldest child is trans, and thus it really changes their worldview in order to be good parents.

[Hanafuridake]

Trans-trending is something that I've seen more transphobic people complain about than actually witnessed myself, and I suspect this phenomenon is almost entirely an internet act. It's not important to trans rights except when it serves as fuel for transphobes, in which case, the transphobes are the problem and not the “trans-trenders.” people are right to bring up gatekeeping because this is just the same old mentality where trans people are dirty autogynephiles until they prove themselves trans enough to earn some sort of medal.

In regard to being friends with transphobes, if your friends believe transgender people are inferior or ought to die, then they are objectively a horrible person and no amount of apologetics is going to change that.

[Aglanen]

Nah, I've got plenty of friends. It just so happens that their views tend to not include things such as telling trans people to go kill themselves. :3

I tend to agree with this point. I mean, if we were to take it in any other context outside of transphobia, this would be common sense to most people. Like, say, racism. I personally wouldn't be friends with someone who's spouting off how much he hates non-whites or jews, even if he's a completely decent person in every other way. That one trait of their character is enough to poison most people's impression of that person.

So I don't see why transphobes are okay, running under the very same logic. And I don't care what the motive behind the bigotry is either.

[Torrocca]

Trans-trending is something that I've seen more transphobic people complain about than actually witnessed myself, and I suspect this phenomenon is almost entirely an internet act. It's not important to trans rights except when it serves as fuel for transphobes, in which case, the transphobes are the problem and not the “trans-trenders.” people are right to bring up gatekeeping because this is just the same old mentality where trans people are dirty autogynephiles until they prove themselves trans enough to earn some sort of medal.

^

"Trans-trenders" is more or less a fucking bullshit concept that transphobes like to use to justify their shittiness. "Oh, it's just a phase!" and quotes like that are definitive examples of this exact thing in action, and usually lead to - you guessed it - trans people repressing their identity from a larger audience for fear of further ostracization and abuse from outside actors.

[Auzkhia]

Trans-trending is something that I've seen more transphobic people complain about than actually witnessed myself, and I suspect this phenomenon is almost entirely an internet act. It's not important to trans rights except when it serves as fuel for transphobes, in which case, the transphobes are the problem and not the “trans-trenders.” people are right to bring up gatekeeping because this is just the same old mentality where trans people are dirty autogynephiles until they prove themselves trans enough to earn some sort of medal.

Exactly! And some of those more transphobic people have told me that I'm not allowed to be happy about being trans, they say it shouldn't be a good thing, and it's internalized when it comes from another trans person. Gender euphoria is a valid thing I feel, dysphoria is a bug not a feature.

[Soviet Technocracy4]

But I absolutely do not think this can be brushed off as NB itself becoming "I'm different look at me!", and I'm kind of insulted at the very thought of it.

If I wanted to be different I’d start by not specifically trying to be different.

Which I don’t.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

I didn’t say for you to go fall in love with somebody who would literally murder you, I simply stated that just because somebody does not agree with every single aspect of the trans community, it doesn’t mean they are transphobes that want them all dead.

My friends are on various points of the political spectrum, and while I do not always agree with their stances, they remain my friends and talking comrades.

Am I friends with people on different points of a political spectrum? Yes, however, I cannot be friends with someone who doesn't respect trans people, because I am a trans person.

I'd say most of my friends are leftists, only non-leftists I am friends with are liberals. But even leftist is a big group, I'm closer to anarchists and libertarian socialists/communists than Marxist-Leninists and authoritarian socialists.

I'm only friends with people who respect me as a person, and usually right wingers aren't good at that. I'd like to smash capitalism with my friends, but I guess I can get a drink with a liberal, but it'd be cooler if you were not capitalist.

Only conservatives I can stand are my family, because well, they're family, and you're kinda stuck with them, at least they're not abusive. The only way to get to a conservative is if you are related to them, they only listen to family, so their eldest child is trans, and thus it really changes their worldview in order to be good parents.

I was including the right in my sentence, not just different facets of the left.

Trans-trending is something that I've seen more transphobic people complain about than actually witnessed myself, and I suspect this phenomenon is almost entirely an internet act. It's not important to trans rights except when it serves as fuel for transphobes, in which case, the transphobes are the problem and not the “trans-trenders.” people are right to bring up gatekeeping because this is just the same old mentality where trans people are dirty autogynephiles until they prove themselves trans enough to earn some sort of medal.

In regard to being friends with transphobes, if your friends believe transgender people are inferior or ought to die, then they are objectively a horrible person and no amount of apologetics is going to change that.

Again, I’m not telling you to befriend people that consider you inferior or want you to die (because that’d be Stockholm Syndrome and would require psychiatric help), just that an ally that doesn’t 100% agree no questions asked isn’t a fucking enemy.

[Soviet Technocracy4]

Saying "hey when I was at my university there were some "non-binary" people who blinked into existence then ceased to even remotely connect that to themselves post-University, and also they were patronizing and naive" is gatekeeping now? No, that's just bringing up one's experience with the topic.

And that surprises you? Since when are people not hypocrites? Most gays are probably in the closet too.