Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Soviet Technocracy4]

What does a genderfluid Babylonian deity have to do with this topic? I don't think anyone's disputing the idea that nonbinary people (closeted or otherwise) have existed throughout human history, so what purpose does Ishtar serve here?

They questioned it.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Can we not do the gatekeeping?

Even if trenders were a thing, which they're not, I don't think we should be grilling other trans people, especially nb/genderqueer people, and say "Are you really your gender?", and doubting a trans/nb person's gender is transphobic. It's just not a good look and it deters people from exploring their gender because they'll get the impression they aren't trans enough. I probably would have come out sooner if I never heard of that gatekeeping mentality, but I held off, because I thought I wasn't trans enough, but I know am enough now. It's not just a principle, it's personal.

And this isn't accounting for the traditional "third genders" of many non-western cultures, and even in some European countries had that as well, but the concept of being cis and trans comes from the western sex-gender system that assigns gender at birth, and uses biological sex as the basis for one's gender identity, and yet not everyone has traditionally believed in that.

Dysphoria is not required to be trans, not being your AGAB is, and I reject transmedicalism and gatekeeping, even as a person who has been formally diagnosed with "gender identity disorder" and takes hormones to both relieve dysphoria and to improve gender euphoria.

Going to have to disagree with a lot of this. Transtrenders ARE a thing. Your argument seems to partly be that we should pretend that they're not because if we admit they are then cis people will be sceptical of the rest of us, but people wearing trans identity like a fashion choice and posting narcissistic nonsense about their paragraph-long identities and invented pronouns which everyone must use or TRANSPHOBIA also damages our credibility. We don't win either way, so we should just say what we believe to be true.

More widely, systems of gatekeeping and identity border-policing exist in all communities and within every social group. Gatekeeping is how you check people are competent to make informed decisions and to control the use of social resources, and identity border-policing occurs because without a separator between inside and outside no group has coherence or meaning because how do you distinguish the two?

You can tinker with the details, sure, but advocating for complete removal of such things seems entirely implausible.

[Soviet Technocracy4]

You can argue that the additional pronouns is overdoing it, but these people do exist.

Also, Cisnormativity is a fashion thing. They insist on certain forms of clothing.

[Khasinkonia]

Can we not do the gatekeeping?

Even if trenders were a thing, which they're not, I don't think we should be grilling other trans people, especially nb/genderqueer people, and say "Are you really your gender?", and doubting a trans/nb person's gender is transphobic. It's just not a good look and it deters people from exploring their gender because they'll get the impression they aren't trans enough. I probably would have come out sooner if I never heard of that gatekeeping mentality, but I held off, because I thought I wasn't trans enough, but I know am enough now. It's not just a principle, it's personal.

And this isn't accounting for the traditional "third genders" of many non-western cultures, and even in some European countries had that as well, but the concept of being cis and trans comes from the western sex-gender system that assigns gender at birth, and uses biological sex as the basis for one's gender identity, and yet not everyone has traditionally believed in that.

Dysphoria is not required to be trans, not being your AGAB is, and I reject transmedicalism and gatekeeping, even as a person who has been formally diagnosed with "gender identity disorder" and takes hormones to both relieve dysphoria and to improve gender euphoria.

Going to have to disagree with a lot of this. Transtrenders ARE a thing. Your argument seems to partly be that we should pretend that they're not because if we admit they are then cis people will be sceptical of the rest of us, but people wearing trans identity like a fashion choice and posting narcissistic nonsense about their paragraph-long identities and invented pronouns which everyone must use or TRANSPHOBIA also damages our credibility. We don't win either way, so we should just say what we believe to be true.

More widely, systems of gatekeeping and identity border-policing exist in all communities and within every social group. Gatekeeping is how you check people are competent to make informed decisions and to control the use of social resources, and identity border-policing occurs because without a separator between inside and outside no group has coherence or meaning because how do you distinguish the two?

You can tinker with the details, sure, but advocating for complete removal of such things seems entirely implausible.

I feel like this makes sense. Nonbinary identities are valid, but I feel like there are a few celebrities who fundamentally miss the point. Nonbinary. It seems a bit oxymoronic to me, quite frankly, to be a nonbinary man or woman, given that man and woman are the gender binary by definition. That’s where I don’t really understand. I don’t like to cast judgement, but I earnestly just don’t understand how the semantics work out.

[Soviet Technocracy4]

It seems a bit oxymoronic to me, quite frankly, to be a nonbinary man or woman, given that man and woman are the gender binary by definition.

I'm genderfluid and often masculine of the spectrum, though I like my feminine side. More masculine of the spectrum I could often call myself a man, though I'm not always been comfortable with the term. Male I could often identify with, if I want to, but often not in a strict sense.

Anyway, it's not quite a paragraph, but I hope you all liked it.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

It seems a bit oxymoronic to me, quite frankly, to be a nonbinary man or woman, given that man and woman are the gender binary by definition.

I'm genderfluid and often masculine of the spectrum, though I like my feminine side. More masculine of the spectrum I could often call myself a man, though I'm not always been comfortable with the term. Male I could often identify with, if I want to, but often not in a strict sense.

Anyway, it's not quite a paragraph, but I hope you all liked it.

"Genderfluid" and "nonbinary" mean two different things. What you just described is gender fluidity - moving between several different identities at different points in time. Nonbinary people aren't either male or female, but rather something else entirely.

[Soviet Technocracy4]

Nonbinary people aren't either male or female, but rather something else entirely.

Nonbinary is within my gender spectrum.

Anyway, I only encountered the trans community after I came to head with my gender through introspection and internal crisis. I understood myself as not being binary as a child, though I did not really become conscious of it. The term transtrender is pointless for me. I may not be the same as the rest of you, but it was not a result of the culture.

[Hediacrana]

There may well be people who self-describe as 'non-binary' for less than wholesome reasons; people (and especially celebrities) do things for less than wholesome reasons all the time. I just wish that apparently 'weird' or 'suspect' cases were not used as a reason to dismiss non-binary genders as such. I mean, we all know examples of people, celebrities for instance, who entered straight relationships or even marriages for less than wholesome reasons; yet that is not usually used as a reason to dismiss the value or sincerity of straight relationships or marriage in general.

Which just shows that straight relationships and marriages enjoy a social sanction that non-binary genders currently do not. With the result that when people hear negative stories about people claiming non-binary identities, they are much more likely to paint all of us with the same brush.

[Neutraligon]

Going to have to disagree with a lot of this. Transtrenders ARE a thing. Your argument seems to partly be that we should pretend that they're not because if we admit they are then cis people will be sceptical of the rest of us, but people wearing trans identity like a fashion choice and posting narcissistic nonsense about their paragraph-long identities and invented pronouns which everyone must use or TRANSPHOBIA also damages our credibility. We don't win either way, so we should just say what we believe to be true.

More widely, systems of gatekeeping and identity border-policing exist in all communities and within every social group. Gatekeeping is how you check people are competent to make informed decisions and to control the use of social resources, and identity border-policing occurs because without a separator between inside and outside no group has coherence or meaning because how do you distinguish the two?

You can tinker with the details, sure, but advocating for complete removal of such things seems entirely implausible.

I feel like this makes sense. Nonbinary identities are valid, but I feel like there are a few celebrities who fundamentally miss the point. Nonbinary. It seems a bit oxymoronic to me, quite frankly, to be a nonbinary man or woman, given that man and woman are the gender binary by definition. That’s where I don’t really understand. I don’t like to cast judgement, but I earnestly just don’t understand how the semantics work out.

So where does someone who does not have a gender sit in this binary?

[Khasinkonia]

I feel like this makes sense. Nonbinary identities are valid, but I feel like there are a few celebrities who fundamentally miss the point. Nonbinary. It seems a bit oxymoronic to me, quite frankly, to be a nonbinary man or woman, given that man and woman are the gender binary by definition. That’s where I don’t really understand. I don’t like to cast judgement, but I earnestly just don’t understand how the semantics work out.

So where does someone who does not have a gender sit in this binary?

Outside of it, of course. That’s what I was under the impression nonbinary meant. My understanding was that it referred to any gender identity that was not man or woman.

[The New California Republic]

So where does someone who does not have a gender sit in this binary?

In the heavens in the lotus position.

[Neutraligon]

So where does someone who does not have a gender sit in this binary?

Outside of it, of course. That’s what I was under the impression nonbinary meant. My understanding was that it referred to any gender identity that was not man or woman.

Oops sorry misread what you said.

[Twilight Imperium]

Going to have to disagree with a lot of this. Transtrenders ARE a thing. Your argument seems to partly be that we should pretend that they're not because if we admit they are then cis people will be sceptical of the rest of us, but people wearing trans identity like a fashion choice and posting narcissistic nonsense about their paragraph-long identities and invented pronouns which everyone must use or TRANSPHOBIA also damages our credibility. We don't win either way, so we should just say what we believe to be true.

More widely, systems of gatekeeping and identity border-policing exist in all communities and within every social group. Gatekeeping is how you check people are competent to make informed decisions and to control the use of social resources, and identity border-policing occurs because without a separator between inside and outside no group has coherence or meaning because how do you distinguish the two?

You can tinker with the details, sure, but advocating for complete removal of such things seems entirely implausible.

This is broadly what I was thinking, but lacked the time and wit to express properly. Permission to ?

[Auzkhia]

I feel like this makes sense. Nonbinary identities are valid, but I feel like there are a few celebrities who fundamentally miss the point. Nonbinary. It seems a bit oxymoronic to me, quite frankly, to be a nonbinary man or woman, given that man and woman are the gender binary by definition. That’s where I don’t really understand. I don’t like to cast judgement, but I earnestly just don’t understand how the semantics work out.

So where does someone who does not have a gender sit in this binary?

Agender is a non-binary identity and label.

Some non-binary might be aligned to a binary identity, though words like transmascuiline and transfeminine, or man-aligned or woman-aligned, it signifies are partial connection.

I think that's what most people by nb man or nb woman, but it usually sounds like transmasc and transfemme. Labels are up to the person, so maybe it makes sense to them.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Going to have to disagree with a lot of this. Transtrenders ARE a thing. Your argument seems to partly be that we should pretend that they're not because if we admit they are then cis people will be sceptical of the rest of us, but people wearing trans identity like a fashion choice and posting narcissistic nonsense about their paragraph-long identities and invented pronouns which everyone must use or TRANSPHOBIA also damages our credibility. We don't win either way, so we should just say what we believe to be true.

More widely, systems of gatekeeping and identity border-policing exist in all communities and within every social group. Gatekeeping is how you check people are competent to make informed decisions and to control the use of social resources, and identity border-policing occurs because without a separator between inside and outside no group has coherence or meaning because how do you distinguish the two?

You can tinker with the details, sure, but advocating for complete removal of such things seems entirely implausible.

This is broadly what I was thinking, but lacked the time and wit to express properly. Permission to ?

I-I suppose I can tolerate this, even though I am the dark lady of doom, malice and destruction.

[Internationalist Bastard]

This is broadly what I was thinking, but lacked the time and wit to express properly. Permission to ?

I-I suppose I can tolerate this, even though I am the dark lady of doom, malice and destruction.

Feel free to not answer if this is too personal but haven’t you expressed that you find yourself to often doubt if you’re trans yourself?
I often question myself so I was curious if you had any input

[The Blaatschapen]

This is broadly what I was thinking, but lacked the time and wit to express properly. Permission to ?

I-I suppose I can tolerate this, even though I am the dark lady of doom, malice and destruction.

Not anymore. Your image is now severely tarnished (or improved, depending on how you look at it)

[Dumb Ideologies]

I-I suppose I can tolerate this, even though I am the dark lady of doom, malice and destruction.

Feel free to not answer if this is too personal but haven’t you expressed that you find yourself to often doubt if you’re trans yourself?
I often question myself so I was curious if you had any input

I need to go to sleep soon, so I'll give a very basic version - feel free to poke me about it later.

It's partly a result of old stereotypical trans narratives, how they didn't particularly fit my experience, concern about whether perhaps I painted myself into this corner with fantasies of escape and being a radically different person due to being chronically unpopular when younger, not to mention the unhelpful influence of porn which made me wonder whether it was a fetish despite being borderline asexual.

A lot of it is common anxiety and asking too many questions - it makes me rather good at breaking things down but very prone to doubt and inability to fully commit without overthinking things, which is partly why I got unhealthily lost in ideas of non-binary etc for years when it turned out that just committing to the binary identity I felt closer to and not thinking about it made me much happier.

The moment I think too hard about anything - identity, politics, I tend to get in much too deep and questioning everything to the point where I feel at a loss. I found it useful to have a very big think about basic principles of who I am and what I believe, write them down, practice self-interruption techniques and refer back to the mantras and axioms for a bit of grounding when I start going down unhelpful paths.

[Twilight Imperium]

I-I suppose I can tolerate this, even though I am the dark lady of doom, malice and destruction.

*provides the evilest, darkest as befits a meeting of malicious minds*

[Khasinkonia]

So where does someone who does not have a gender sit in this binary?

Agender is a non-binary identity and label.

Some non-binary might be aligned to a binary identity, though words like transmascuiline and transfeminine, or man-aligned or woman-aligned, it signifies are partial connection.

I think that's what most people by nb man or nb woman, but it usually sounds like transmasc and transfemme. Labels are up to the person, so maybe it makes sense to them.

I feel like transmasculine and transfeminine make more sense than nb man or nb woman just because I feel the latter is more of a semantic logical contradiction, as man and woman are defined as the two points of the binary. I mean I guess labels are just words on some level, but it bugs my logic centres nonetheless.

[Auzkhia]

Agender is a non-binary identity and label.

Some non-binary might be aligned to a binary identity, though words like transmascuiline and transfeminine, or man-aligned or woman-aligned, it signifies are partial connection.

I think that's what most people by nb man or nb woman, but it usually sounds like transmasc and transfemme. Labels are up to the person, so maybe it makes sense to them.

I feel like transmasculine and transfeminine make more sense than nb man or nb woman just because I feel the latter is more of a semantic logical contradiction, as man and woman are defined as the two points of the binary. I mean I guess labels are just words on some level, but it bugs my logic centres nonetheless.

Gender is irrational sometimes, no? Still, I get that, maybe some people still feel some connection with them, but they're not exclusively that, binary is exclusively male or female, being partly that can be non-binary. Man and woman are terms I would never use to describe myself, despite being feminine of center. I think everyone is valid in a hugbox sort of way, but I do see that some labels feel a bit overlapping and redundant, I am both genderqueer and nonbinary and they mean literally the same thing.

[Khasinkonia]

I feel like transmasculine and transfeminine make more sense than nb man or nb woman just because I feel the latter is more of a semantic logical contradiction, as man and woman are defined as the two points of the binary. I mean I guess labels are just words on some level, but it bugs my logic centres nonetheless.

Gender is irrational sometimes, no? Still, I get that, maybe some people still feel some connection with them, but they're not exclusively that, binary is exclusively male or female, being partly that can be non-binary. Man and woman are terms I would never use to describe myself, despite being feminine of center. I think everyone is valid in a hugbox sort of way, but I do see that some labels feel a bit overlapping and redundant, I am both genderqueer and nonbinary and they mean literally the same thing.

Yeah, like empathically I’m like “Sure, cool” but Mme. Logique is not amused.

[Grenartia]

Is it just me who hears career-narcissist binary-presenting celebrities declaring themselves to be genderqueer or non-binary and then goes "sure you are" while giving a long sarcastic "get a load of this" look to the sides?

I don’t like to question other people’s identities, but I do agree. It seems to me like “nonbinary” is becoming a little “I’m different look at me!” tag instead of something legitimate. Like, for Miley Cyrus, I feel like “woman” would suffice to describe her, quite frankly.

Look, here's the thing. Most cis people have a very different idea of what it means to be non-binary than what trans people have. Cis people tend to think it means you simply reject gender roles (this leads to shit like Cathy Fucking Brennan of all people calling herself NB), because of course, cis people can barely comprehend binary trans existence. But I absolutely do not think this can be brushed off as NB itself becoming "I'm different look at me!", and I'm kind of insulted at the very thought of it.

Transtrenders are a thing, and I think more common than the group would like to believe.

Fuck that nonsense. Sure, there's a non-zero amount, but its nowhere near the pervasive problem the anti-trans community wants us to believe it is.

No, but gatekeeping is a thing, various cultures have/had NB cultures all on their own.

It’s not gatekeeping. There are people out there who only identify as Trans because they think it’s trendy or because it endears them to people or they get attention they want. I’m not making this up wholesale, I personally know people like this. I’m not saying it’s all, or most or even a sizable portion of the community, but they do exist.

Honest fucking question, but how do you KNOW the people you know are just "doing it for attention"?

Transtrenders are a thing, and I think more common than the group would like to believe.

Rings true to my experience - my uni had five or six "out" trans people when I was there (50/50 on binary/non-binary), then within the next year several entirely heteronormatively presenting "non-binary" people appeared, made lots of noise, then immediately removed any reference to it from their profiles once they left uni and never mentioned it again.

It was quite obviously a form of "play" for them to associate themselves with an edgy and visible minority - they weren't bad people per se but vaguely patronising and insulting like naive self-centred tourists demanding to take part in local ceremonies of which they know nothing.

Speaking as someone who *HAS* to present "entirely heteronormatively" due to terrible family members, I have to speak up here, and ask how you can be so fucking sure there aren't other factors at play? How do you know for sure that your conclusions about them are correct?

You and Tars are acting like you're both fucking omnipotent mindreaders, when you're only just being gatekeepers.

Can we not do the gatekeeping?

Even if trenders were a thing, which they're not, I don't think we should be grilling other trans people, especially nb/genderqueer people, and say "Are you really your gender?", and doubting a trans/nb person's gender is transphobic. It's just not a good look and it deters people from exploring their gender because they'll get the impression they aren't trans enough. I probably would have come out sooner if I never heard of that gatekeeping mentality, but I held off, because I thought I wasn't trans enough, but I know am enough now. It's not just a principle, it's personal.

And this isn't accounting for the traditional "third genders" of many non-western cultures, and even in some European countries had that as well, but the concept of being cis and trans comes from the western sex-gender system that assigns gender at birth, and uses biological sex as the basis for one's gender identity, and yet not everyone has traditionally believed in that.

Dysphoria is not required to be trans, not being your AGAB is, and I reject transmedicalism and gatekeeping, even as a person who has been formally diagnosed with "gender identity disorder" and takes hormones to both relieve dysphoria and to improve gender euphoria.

Fucking thank you.

Agreed. It's dangerous, and hurts supposedly "true" trans people too. My mom still refuses to accept me being trans because she says "all transgenders are transtrenders." Even though I have disphoria. So um... Don't play with matches, is my belief.

This, this fucking right here, is why the "transtrender" narrative and gatekeeping are so fucking harmful. Shame on people who unironically parrot that shit.

Can we not do the gatekeeping?

Even if trenders were a thing, which they're not, I don't think we should be grilling other trans people, especially nb/genderqueer people, and say "Are you really your gender?", and doubting a trans/nb person's gender is transphobic. It's just not a good look and it deters people from exploring their gender because they'll get the impression they aren't trans enough. I probably would have come out sooner if I never heard of that gatekeeping mentality, but I held off, because I thought I wasn't trans enough, but I know am enough now. It's not just a principle, it's personal.

And this isn't accounting for the traditional "third genders" of many non-western cultures, and even in some European countries had that as well, but the concept of being cis and trans comes from the western sex-gender system that assigns gender at birth, and uses biological sex as the basis for one's gender identity, and yet not everyone has traditionally believed in that.

Dysphoria is not required to be trans, not being your AGAB is, and I reject transmedicalism and gatekeeping, even as a person who has been formally diagnosed with "gender identity disorder" and takes hormones to both relieve dysphoria and to improve gender euphoria.

Going to have to disagree with a lot of this. Transtrenders ARE a thing. Your argument seems to partly be that we should pretend that they're not because if we admit they are then cis people will be sceptical of the rest of us, but people wearing trans identity like a fashion choice and posting narcissistic nonsense about their paragraph-long identities and invented pronouns which everyone must use or TRANSPHOBIA also damages our credibility. We don't win either way, so we should just say what we believe to be true.

More widely, systems of gatekeeping and identity border-policing exist in all communities and within every social group. Gatekeeping is how you check people are competent to make informed decisions and to control the use of social resources, and identity border-policing occurs because without a separator between inside and outside no group has coherence or meaning because how do you distinguish the two?

You can tinker with the details, sure, but advocating for complete removal of such things seems entirely implausible.

Funny, considering you yourself have been one of the most vehement anti-gatekeepers on this forum that I've seen. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

[Khasinkonia]

I don’t like to question other people’s identities, but I do agree. It seems to me like “nonbinary” is becoming a little “I’m different look at me!” tag instead of something legitimate. Like, for Miley Cyrus, I feel like “woman” would suffice to describe her, quite frankly.

Look, here's the thing. Most cis people have a very different idea of what it means to be non-binary than what trans people have. Cis people tend to think it means you simply reject gender roles (this leads to shit like Cathy Fucking Brennan of all people calling herself NB), because of course, cis people can barely comprehend binary trans existence. But I absolutely do not think this can be brushed off as NB itself becoming "I'm different look at me!", and I'm kind of insulted at the very thought of it.

I realise I may not have clearly worded my thoughts throughout. I more mean it in the way that the term sort of seems to me to have been appropriated by some celebrities for attention rather than understanding the meaning of nonbinary. I can’t read minds, so I don’t entirely know, and media coverage is certainly flawed, but I just get some funky vibes from a few of the celebrity claims.

[Auzkhia]

I don’t like to question other people’s identities, but I do agree. It seems to me like “nonbinary” is becoming a little “I’m different look at me!” tag instead of something legitimate. Like, for Miley Cyrus, I feel like “woman” would suffice to describe her, quite frankly.

Look, here's the thing. Most cis people have a very different idea of what it means to be non-binary than what trans people have. Cis people tend to think it means you simply reject gender roles (this leads to shit like Cathy Fucking Brennan of all people calling herself NB), because of course, cis people can barely comprehend binary trans existence. But I absolutely do not think this can be brushed off as NB itself becoming "I'm different look at me!", and I'm kind of insulted at the very thought of it.

Transtrenders are a thing, and I think more common than the group would like to believe.

Fuck that nonsense. Sure, there's a non-zero amount, but its nowhere near the pervasive problem the anti-trans community wants us to believe it is.

It’s not gatekeeping. There are people out there who only identify as Trans because they think it’s trendy or because it endears them to people or they get attention they want. I’m not making this up wholesale, I personally know people like this. I’m not saying it’s all, or most or even a sizable portion of the community, but they do exist.

Honest fucking question, but how do you KNOW the people you know are just "doing it for attention"?

Rings true to my experience - my uni had five or six "out" trans people when I was there (50/50 on binary/non-binary), then within the next year several entirely heteronormatively presenting "non-binary" people appeared, made lots of noise, then immediately removed any reference to it from their profiles once they left uni and never mentioned it again.

It was quite obviously a form of "play" for them to associate themselves with an edgy and visible minority - they weren't bad people per se but vaguely patronising and insulting like naive self-centred tourists demanding to take part in local ceremonies of which they know nothing.

Speaking as someone who *HAS* to present "entirely heteronormatively" due to terrible family members, I have to speak up here, and ask how you can be so fucking sure there aren't other factors at play? How do you know for sure that your conclusions about them are correct?

You and Tars are acting like you're both fucking omnipotent mindreaders, when you're only just being gatekeepers.

Can we not do the gatekeeping?

Even if trenders were a thing, which they're not, I don't think we should be grilling other trans people, especially nb/genderqueer people, and say "Are you really your gender?", and doubting a trans/nb person's gender is transphobic. It's just not a good look and it deters people from exploring their gender because they'll get the impression they aren't trans enough. I probably would have come out sooner if I never heard of that gatekeeping mentality, but I held off, because I thought I wasn't trans enough, but I know am enough now. It's not just a principle, it's personal.

And this isn't accounting for the traditional "third genders" of many non-western cultures, and even in some European countries had that as well, but the concept of being cis and trans comes from the western sex-gender system that assigns gender at birth, and uses biological sex as the basis for one's gender identity, and yet not everyone has traditionally believed in that.

Dysphoria is not required to be trans, not being your AGAB is, and I reject transmedicalism and gatekeeping, even as a person who has been formally diagnosed with "gender identity disorder" and takes hormones to both relieve dysphoria and to improve gender euphoria.

Fucking thank you.

Agreed. It's dangerous, and hurts supposedly "true" trans people too. My mom still refuses to accept me being trans because she says "all transgenders are transtrenders." Even though I have disphoria. So um... Don't play with matches, is my belief.

This, this fucking right here, is why the "transtrender" narrative and gatekeeping are so fucking harmful. Shame on people who unironically parrot that shit.

Going to have to disagree with a lot of this. Transtrenders ARE a thing. Your argument seems to partly be that we should pretend that they're not because if we admit they are then cis people will be sceptical of the rest of us, but people wearing trans identity like a fashion choice and posting narcissistic nonsense about their paragraph-long identities and invented pronouns which everyone must use or TRANSPHOBIA also damages our credibility. We don't win either way, so we should just say what we believe to be true.

More widely, systems of gatekeeping and identity border-policing exist in all communities and within every social group. Gatekeeping is how you check people are competent to make informed decisions and to control the use of social resources, and identity border-policing occurs because without a separator between inside and outside no group has coherence or meaning because how do you distinguish the two?

You can tinker with the details, sure, but advocating for complete removal of such things seems entirely implausible.

Funny, considering you yourself have been one of the most vehement anti-gatekeepers on this forum that I've seen. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

You're welcome friendo!

Although your point on Cathy Brennan reminded me of an acquaintance I knew, she said that she used to identify as non-binary for "political reasons", in a post that was about gender essentialism and saying that trans people aren't really their gender, you know, standard TERF business. She's a radical cultural feminist and reasonable on most issues accept for transgender topics.

And there probably are cases of people questioning their gender, wondering if they might be trans, but who actually realize they are still cis, but at least they know for sure. I still think it's healthy to question everything especially your gender and sexuality. Maybe those are "trenders" we here so much about, but I don't really notice them or feel like they stole anything from me. To restate my point, the transtrender thing is totally overblown and does not pose a real threat to the trans community. Bigots, TERFs, gender essentialists, and division do.

Look, here's the thing. Most cis people have a very different idea of what it means to be non-binary than what trans people have. Cis people tend to think it means you simply reject gender roles (this leads to shit like Cathy Fucking Brennan of all people calling herself NB), because of course, cis people can barely comprehend binary trans existence. But I absolutely do not think this can be brushed off as NB itself becoming "I'm different look at me!", and I'm kind of insulted at the very thought of it.

I realise I may not have clearly worded my thoughts throughout. I more mean it in the way that the term sort of seems to me to have been appropriated by some celebrities for attention rather than understanding the meaning of nonbinary. I can’t read minds, so I don’t entirely know, and media coverage is certainly flawed, but I just get some funky vibes from a few of the celebrity claims.

I think we should take coming out statements seriously and not doubt them. To do otherwise will set a bad precedent.