Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Soviet Technocracy4]

I'm not saying that gender non-coforming people don't exist. They do, I'm saying transtrenders are not gender non-conforming, they're transtrenders.

Plenty of Gender nonconforming people conform, but they are not called binarytrenders.

[Soviet Technocracy4]

There are those who would say that treating it like a toy undermines the efforts of people who are trying to gain serious acceptance for such things.

Gender IS a toy, we are not labels.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

I'm not saying that gender non-coforming people don't exist. They do, I'm saying transtrenders are not gender non-conforming, they're transtrenders.

Plenty of Gender noncoforming people conform, but they are not called binarytrenders.

Ignoring the fact that "binarytrender" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, do you have any evidence to back up the assertion that most people are secretly nonbinary?

[Soviet Technocracy4]

Ignoring the fact that "binarytrender" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, do you have any evidence to back up the assertion that most people are secretly nonbinary?

“Most people” don’t have to be, but it is an enforced norm. Why enforce it if you don’t have something to hide.

[Twilight Imperium]

Ignoring the fact that "binarytrender" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, do you have any evidence to back up the assertion that most people are secretly nonbinary?

“Most people” don’t have to be, but it is an enforced norm. Why enforce it if you don’t have something to hide.

I don't know. What happened to Soviet Technocracy 3?

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

Ignoring the fact that "binarytrender" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, do you have any evidence to back up the assertion that most people are secretly nonbinary?

“Most people” don’t have to be, but it is an enforced norm. Why enforce it if you don’t have something to hide.

Yes, nonbinary people exist. This is a fact. Yes, society as a whole dislikes the idea of a nonbinary person. This is also a fact. However, the idea that someone would act like an average person for the sake of showing off is completely ludicrous. And I think that you're definition of "trend" is a bit loose, considering that you're referring to a set of social norms that have been in place about as long as human society has existed (unless you can prove the case that, until recently, there was no resistance to nonbinary people, but since that's stupid...), and something can't be a trend unless it is a new thing last I checked.
I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding your point, but in my defense, I'm not entirely certain what your point actually is.

[Soviet Technocracy4]

However, the idea that someone would act like an average person for the sake of showing off is completely ludicrous.

It’s called a corporate suit.

[Soviet Technocracy4]

I don't know. What happened to Soviet Technocracy 3?

Tried another setting but Plucky Settlers gets better environment

[Twilight Imperium]

However, the idea that someone would act like an average person for the sake of showing off is completely ludicrous.

It’s called a corporate suit.

Hello fellow human let us consume money with our human mouths, as humans do.

You're alright.

[The Blaatschapen]

However, the idea that someone would act like an average person for the sake of showing off is completely ludicrous.

It’s called a corporate suit.

I want to say that this comment is winning.

But alas, it is just a tie.

[The Blaatschapen]

It's not.

Your partriacrhal societies didn’t have it as much, but a number of Native American cultutes did.

Or, closer to home (for me at least) :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_sworn_virgins

[Tarsonis]

I'm not saying that gender non-coforming people don't exist. They do, I'm saying transtrenders are not gender non-conforming, they're transtrenders.

Plenty of Gender nonconforming people conform, but they are not called binarytrenders.

no, they'd be called closeted. Different goals and motivations, hence the different name.

[Soviet Technocracy4]

no, they'd be called closeted. Different goals and motivations, hence the different name.

"Transtrenders" are also previously closeted people. Maybe not counting some celebrities, but I'm not sure why we're talking about celebrities anyway.

They show that supposedly Cis people can also be gender nonconforming, for whatever reason.

[Soviet Technocracy4]

I want to say that this comment is winning.

But alas, it is just a tie.

We will go to gender reveal party where we will show off how normal we are, which obviously doesn't happen.

[Auzkhia]

Can we not do the gatekeeping?

Even if trenders were a thing, which they're not, I don't think we should be grilling other trans people, especially nb/genderqueer people, and say "Are you really your gender?", and doubting a trans/nb person's gender is transphobic. It's just not a good look and it deters people from exploring their gender because they'll get the impression they aren't trans enough. I probably would have come out sooner if I never heard of that gatekeeping mentality, but I held off, because I thought I wasn't trans enough, but I know am enough now. It's not just a principle, it's personal.

And this isn't accounting for the traditional "third genders" of many non-western cultures, and even in some European countries had that as well, but the concept of being cis and trans comes from the western sex-gender system that assigns gender at birth, and uses biological sex as the basis for one's gender identity, and yet not everyone has traditionally believed in that.

Dysphoria is not required to be trans, not being your AGAB is, and I reject transmedicalism and gatekeeping, even as a person who has been formally diagnosed with "gender identity disorder" and takes hormones to both relieve dysphoria and to improve gender euphoria.

[Soviet Technocracy4]

"Are you really your gender?".

I am not really a label, no.

[Cekoviu]

Obstinance for obstinance sake is unconvincing. They're not gender non-conforming, they don't even have gender-dysphoria. They adopt the trans-persona, for social gain. Refusing to acknowledge their existence just because you see it as a threat to your ideological agenda, does not negate their existence.

Or gender nonconforming is the historical norm.

By definition, following a norm isn't nonconforming.

[Cekoviu]

I knew I was bisexual since I was 16 years old, not too hard, it was after I realized I was sexually and romantically attracted to men as well, and then any gender really, not a limit, technically pansexual, but I'm fine with calling myself bi, and I'm non-binary, so what is really opposite and same sex to me? It doesn't matter anyway, in terms of potential partners' gender, at least.

Funny, for me everything really started catching on fire right from the start of puberty, which I kept on suppressing for two years until I haphazardly stumbled into myself while reflecting on my life at summer camp. Sexuality took about a week, mostly to hammer down a name on the damn thing, while gender took like a year because I wanted to be super-duper sure that I was trans because of course as a minority we continue to be royally fucked as far as the statistics go. Didn’t wanna give up that white male privilage either

It seems like trans people often pin down their sexuality far before getting their actual gender figured out, which is really interesting to me. I feel like my sexuality is way more complex than my gender identity, but I definitely understand why somebody might think the reverse (particularly anyone who's genderfluid - my sexual fluidity is a big part of why I can't figure out what it actually is).

[Dumb Ideologies]

Or gender nonconforming is the historical norm.

By definition, following a norm isn't nonconforming.

Thanks for the save. The plot was getting so thick back there that I worried it was going to set like concrete around our legs.

[Soviet Technocracy4]

By definition, following a norm isn't nonconforming.

Ishtar is usually a woman, but sometimes she is bearded or a male lion.

[Soviet Technocracy4]

It seems like trans people often pin down their sexuality far before getting their actual gender figured out, which is really interesting to me.

I encountered them at the same time but sexuality was easier to become conscious of, though the same has occurred for it.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

Can we not do the gatekeeping?

Even if trenders were a thing, which they're not, I don't think we should be grilling other trans people, especially nb/genderqueer people, and say "Are you really your gender?", and doubting a trans/nb person's gender is transphobic. It's just not a good look and it deters people from exploring their gender because they'll get the impression they aren't trans enough. I probably would have come out sooner if I never heard of that gatekeeping mentality, but I held off, because I thought I wasn't trans enough, but I know am enough now. It's not just a principle, it's personal.

And this isn't accounting for the traditional "third genders" of many non-western cultures, and even in some European countries had that as well, but the concept of being cis and trans comes from the western sex-gender system that assigns gender at birth, and uses biological sex as the basis for one's gender identity, and yet not everyone has traditionally believed in that.

Dysphoria is not required to be trans, not being your AGAB is, and I reject transmedicalism and gatekeeping, even as a person who has been formally diagnosed with "gender identity disorder" and takes hormones to both relieve dysphoria and to improve gender euphoria.

Agreed. It's dangerous, and hurts supposedly "true" trans people too. My mom still refuses to accept me being trans because she says "all transgenders are transtrenders." Even though I have disphoria. So um... Don't play with matches, is my belief.

[Auzkhia]

Can we not do the gatekeeping?

Even if trenders were a thing, which they're not, I don't think we should be grilling other trans people, especially nb/genderqueer people, and say "Are you really your gender?", and doubting a trans/nb person's gender is transphobic. It's just not a good look and it deters people from exploring their gender because they'll get the impression they aren't trans enough. I probably would have come out sooner if I never heard of that gatekeeping mentality, but I held off, because I thought I wasn't trans enough, but I know am enough now. It's not just a principle, it's personal.

And this isn't accounting for the traditional "third genders" of many non-western cultures, and even in some European countries had that as well, but the concept of being cis and trans comes from the western sex-gender system that assigns gender at birth, and uses biological sex as the basis for one's gender identity, and yet not everyone has traditionally believed in that.

Dysphoria is not required to be trans, not being your AGAB is, and I reject transmedicalism and gatekeeping, even as a person who has been formally diagnosed with "gender identity disorder" and takes hormones to both relieve dysphoria and to improve gender euphoria.

Agreed. It's dangerous, and hurts supposedly "true" trans people too. My mom still refuses to accept me being trans because she says "all transgenders are transtrenders." Even though I have disphoria. So um... Don't play with matches, is my belief.

Gatekeeping trans people give ammo to cis people and validate their ignorance and even bigotry. The transtrender concept matches up 100% with the narrative of "it's a lifestyle choice and a choice not to be taken seriously".

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

By definition, following a norm isn't nonconforming.

Ishtar is usually a woman, but sometimes she is bearded or a male lion.

What does a genderfluid Babylonian deity have to do with this topic? I don't think anyone's disputing the idea that nonbinary people (closeted or otherwise) have existed throughout human history, so what purpose does Ishtar serve here?

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

Agreed. It's dangerous, and hurts supposedly "true" trans people too. My mom still refuses to accept me being trans because she says "all transgenders are transtrenders." Even though I have disphoria. So um... Don't play with matches, is my belief.

Gatekeeping trans people give ammo to cis people and validate their ignorance and even bigotry. The transtrender concept matches up 100% with the narrative of "it's a lifestyle choice and a choice not to be taken seriously".

Transtrenders do in fact exist. They hurt actual transgender people by removing much of their legitimacy in the eyes of others, yes, but they do in fact exist.
And while we definitely shouldn't assume that any given transgender person is faking it, saying that nobody does that in the face of empirical evidence that at least some people do is just going to convince others that you're making stuff up to justify a cause, which isn't a good thing when you're trying to do the exact opposite.