Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Ifreann]

A poor example for the point you're trying to make. Most people understand the challenges faced by diabetics, even if only vaguely. Whereas many people don't even accept that being trans is a real thing.


In the same sense that it isn't necessary for people to know how to add. We're all a lot better off with people having that knowledge.

The problem of widespread ignorance will never be solved if no one recognises it as a problem.

1. That only changes as trans people make themselves understood. Social change takes a bit, especially in the states.

Do you think that the general understanding of what diabetes is came from individual diabetics educating people about diabetes?

2. Except everyone needs to add at some point. You can go your whole life without meeting a transgender person.

You can go your whole life without doing maths.

3. Theres widespread ignorance about many serious illnesses and disabilities. But again, only people close to them generally know what it is or how it affects them. Should we be trying to educate everyone on these matters as well?

Yes. We should understand the society we live in.

People really dont try to learn about things irrelevant to their lives unless they have an interest.

Do you think people know about diabetes because they took an interest in it?

[Auzkhia]

There arent allies or "fellow cis". We arent grouped by how we are born. Diabetics dont expect anyone but their close family members to know how to use a glucagon kit or how to stab them with needles. Theres no need for everyone to learn even the basics about trans people unless they need to so long as they, out of ignorance, are biased against them. Expecting everyone around you to know about your set of difficulties or challenges is going to do nothing but frustrate you.

This.

The world doesn’t have to adapt to you, it’s you that has to adapt to it and take the time to explain.

No, fuck assimilationism. People shouldn't have their dignity be gatekept for failing to meet some arbritrary tastes and customs.

Some questions can be easily answered with a quick google consultation, but I shouldn't have to educate, but if not me, who is going to learn? Maybe cis allies could tell their fellow cis, but still, it just gets tiring.

There arent allies or "fellow cis". We arent grouped by how we are born. Diabetics dont expect anyone but their close family members to know how to use a glucagon kit or how to stab them with needles. Theres no need for everyone to learn even the basics about trans people unless they need to so long as they, out of ignorance, arent biased against them. Expecting everyone around you to know about your set of difficulties or challenges is going to do nothing but frustrate you.

A false equivalence but ok. Nobody denies the existence of diabetics.

What's really at stake is not putting the burden on the marginalized group, having their existence acknowledged and to be treated with the right words, actions, and accepted. I don't expect cis people to understand trans people, because they can't. I can only understand what it is like to be me or similar experiences. I just want the acceptance and recognition of my identity, and therefore to be treated as who I say I am. Kinda hard to do when some asks "What's genderqueer?" ad naseum, when they can look up basic terms. Besides, what's the harm on you doing the research? Even if it's just cracking open a dictionary?

[Thuzbekistan]

This.

The world doesn’t have to adapt to you, it’s you that has to adapt to it and take the time to explain.

No, fuck assimilationism. People shouldn't have their dignity be gatekept for failing to meet some arbritrary tastes and customs.

There arent allies or "fellow cis". We arent grouped by how we are born. Diabetics dont expect anyone but their close family members to know how to use a glucagon kit or how to stab them with needles. Theres no need for everyone to learn even the basics about trans people unless they need to so long as they, out of ignorance, arent biased against them. Expecting everyone around you to know about your set of difficulties or challenges is going to do nothing but frustrate you.

A false equivalence but ok. Nobody denies the existence of diabetics.

What's really at stake is not putting the burden on the marginalized group, having their existence acknowledged and to be treated with the right words, actions, and accepted. I don't expect cis people to understand trans people, because they can't. I can only understand what it is like to be me or similar experiences. I just want the acceptance and recognition of my identity, and therefore to be treated as who I say I am. Kinda hard to do when some asks "What's genderqueer?" ad naseum, when they can look up basic terms. Besides, what's the harm on you doing the research? Even if it's just cracking open a dictionary?

1. No one is gatekeeping. Also, for type 1s, as my fiancee is, people do deny it and say "it's just cuz you're fat" out of ignorance and she has to explain it.
2. I've been in this thread for a good while and I still dont know what "queer" really refers to and whether it's an acceptable term or not. It changes. Transgender people and their issues and terms are still a new thing for society as we only recently allowed marriage rights. It's something you shouldnt expect to happen overnight and will only happen as you and other LGBTQ people keep talking about it, marching, and advocating. Getting frustrated with SUPPORTIVE parents because they didnt dive into the LGBTQ culture to learn about it again does not help you do anything but get frustrated. It's not everyone else's job to learn especially when theres nothing objective about it. Theres no objective list of identities that are well defined or used. Theres literally 50 I've seen myself and a lot of terms are redundant and useless. So it still sounds like the LGBTQ community is getting its crap together.

[Thuzbekistan]

1. That only changes as trans people make themselves understood. Social change takes a bit, especially in the states.

Do you think that the general understanding of what diabetes is came from individual diabetics educating people about diabetes?

2. Except everyone needs to add at some point. You can go your whole life without meeting a transgender person.

You can go your whole life without doing maths.

3. Theres widespread ignorance about many serious illnesses and disabilities. But again, only people close to them generally know what it is or how it affects them. Should we be trying to educate everyone on these matters as well?

Yes. We should understand the society we live in.

People really dont try to learn about things irrelevant to their lives unless they have an interest.

Do you think people know about diabetes because they took an interest in it?

1. Ir cane from doctors educating patients and patients educating others by existence. Many people still dont know what type 1 diabetes is because it's not as wide spread as type 2.
2. Not really, but the point was that if it's rare, then you might only ever hear of it as a concept. What incentive is there to learn about it in that case?
3. Good luck with that.
4. By interest, I mean had an incentive to do so. Having a friend or family member with diabetes causes you to learn about it unless you're especially dull.

[Ifreann]

Do you think that the general understanding of what diabetes is came from individual diabetics educating people about diabetes?

You can go your whole life without doing maths.

Yes. We should understand the society we live in.

Do you think people know about diabetes because they took an interest in it?

1. Ir cane from doctors educating patients and patients educating others by existence. Many people still dont know what type 1 diabetes is because it's not as wide spread as type 2.

I don't know any diabetics.

2. Not really, but the point was that if it's rare, then you might only ever hear of it as a concept. What incentive is there to learn about it in that case?

I don't recall being offered any incentives to learn maths, we just had a class about it in school.

3. Good luck with that.
4. By interest, I mean had an incentive to do so. Having a friend or family member with diabetes causes you to learn about it unless you're especially dull.

I know about diabetes without having a friend or family member teaching me about it.

[Grenartia]

I could link a bunch of ben shapiro here but I won't, I will throw my opinion out here quickly.

gender and sex are the same thing, and if you are born male, you are male, born female, you are female, you cannot switch, you cannot be both, you cannot be something entirely different, and I want someone here to try to convince me otherwise

(if i don't respond it is cause i probably forgot i posted here considering I do that a lot)

Friendly reminder that Ben Shapiro got dunked on like a pack of Oreos by the Queen of Youtube. And she also disproved the whole "sex=gender" lie several years ago.

Already off that article's title I can say the brain is more like that because the person wants to be like that, not because they are really a trans or queer thing

I don’t think you can obtain a brain pattern and other test results of the opposite sex by wanting to be said sex.

Quick! Literally rewire your own brain using nothing more than sheer willpower!

A tone else have a problem of only really liking androgynous outfits on yourself?

Depends on the mood. I've worn some feminine clothes when I'm confident enough to pass (which is not a lot of the time). I mostly wear flannel shirts because I feel less vulnerable behind them. Which lead to some friends joking I'm a butch-femme hybrid.

I've seen her in the flannel. She looks cute AF.

I could link a bunch of ben shapiro here but I won't, I will throw my opinion out here quickly.

gender and sex are the same thing, and if you are born male, you are male, born female, you are female, you cannot switch, you cannot be both, you cannot be something entirely different, and I want someone here to try to convince me otherwise

(if i don't respond it is cause i probably forgot i posted here considering I do that a lot)

Gender and sex are not the same concept. Sex is the biological classification one has. While it is technically true that humans have two sexes with different gametes that are involved in reproduction, itnalso true that there individuals whomnon a biological level do not fit neatly into male or female sexes, from a biological point. Individuals with male genitalia whom have xy chromosomes, chimeras, etc do all exist. That said, typically there is a male and female dichotomy.


Gender is a concept that refers to how sex is expressed and defined in a given society. While gender typically aligns with expected biological sex, this does nkt mean that sex and gender are the same. Rather, Gender is the social expectations involved with a person's sex.


The reason why the latter was developed has nothing to do with some sort of nefarious SJW-ness. Rather, it developed in psychology and anthropology to discuss the rather complicated nature that sex and culture have with one another, and how different individuals and cultures express sex in a cultural context.

More to the point, Sex is the biological portion, Gender is studying how biology and culture interact.

Or, to put it simply, people aren't unlike computers. You have hardware (sex) and software (gender).

Good news! I started hormone therapy today, only bad thing was a blood test, it was a bit painful and nearly passed out at the sight of it, I have anxiety issues with blood and needles.

I'm so glad for you!

Update on my friend: she's out of the hospital and currently at a mental health facility receiving therapy. I haven't been able to talk to her. Turns out the attempt was pretty bad and the hospital had to restart her kidneys twice. They were only letting her parents have contact with her. She was too distraught at the hospital.

I don't know, and neither does her family, how long she'll be kept at the mental health place. I think there's a big concern about another suicide attempt if she's released at this time.

Oh, god. That's terrible news.

No one cares until they actually meet one or have one they know. Other than that, it's mostly irrelevant to them. So why should they look up things about lifestyles or genders or anything else that doesn't have an impact on their lives? On top of that, you are trying to get people who CAN'T see from the perspective of a trans person to understand that perspective. Most people have a tentative feeling about trans simply because they can't understand it. Cis people are generally locked in a mindset of "well, this is who I am" and questioning something as basic as whether they are a man, or woman, or something else is entirely foreign to them. So if you want them to understand, it is up to you to try and share what that is like. No amount of googling will do that for anyone.

Some questions can be easily answered with a quick google consultation, but I shouldn't have to educate, but if not me, who is going to learn? Maybe cis allies could tell their fellow cis, but still, it just gets tiring.

And shit like this is why we need trained, LGBT+ competent sex ed instructors in schools.

Some questions can be easily answered with a quick google consultation, but I shouldn't have to educate, but if not me, who is going to learn? Maybe cis allies could tell their fellow cis, but still, it just gets tiring.

There arent allies or "fellow cis". We arent grouped by how we are born. Diabetics dont expect anyone but their close family members to know how to use a glucagon kit or how to stab them with needles. Theres no need for everyone to learn even the basics about trans people unless they need to so long as they, out of ignorance, arent biased against them. Expecting everyone around you to know about your set of difficulties or challenges is going to do nothing but frustrate you.

I think that's an unhelpful attitude to have. Sure, not everyone can be fully competent in every minority concern, but there is definitely a basic minimum that should be met.

FFS, there's people (i.e., cis men) who don't understand that cis women not only bleed during their periods, but said bleeding is not willfully controllable. They actually think tampons/pads/etc. are "luxury items". That's the same level of ingrained ignorance that LGBT+ have to deal with (not just on trans issues, I've encountered coworkers who literally think being LGB is caused by child sexual abuse). We're not expecting everyone to have a fucking PhD on our issues, but not having a basic understanding of the shit that affects us causes terrible outcomes (see again, the idea that tampons/pads are "luxury" items).

[Auzkhia]

No, fuck assimilationism. People shouldn't have their dignity be gatekept for failing to meet some arbritrary tastes and customs.

A false equivalence but ok. Nobody denies the existence of diabetics.

What's really at stake is not putting the burden on the marginalized group, having their existence acknowledged and to be treated with the right words, actions, and accepted. I don't expect cis people to understand trans people, because they can't. I can only understand what it is like to be me or similar experiences. I just want the acceptance and recognition of my identity, and therefore to be treated as who I say I am. Kinda hard to do when some asks "What's genderqueer?" ad naseum, when they can look up basic terms. Besides, what's the harm on you doing the research? Even if it's just cracking open a dictionary?

1. No one is gatekeeping. Also, for type 1s, as my fiancee is, people do deny it and say "it's just cuz you're fat" out of ignorance and she has to explain it.
2. I've been in this thread for a good while and I still dont know what "queer" really refers to and whether it's an acceptable term or not. It changes. Transgender people and their issues and terms are still a new thing for society as we only recently allowed marriage rights. It's something you shouldnt expect to happen overnight and will only happen as you and other LGBTQ people keep talking about it, marching, and advocating. Getting frustrated with SUPPORTIVE parents because they didnt dive into the LGBTQ culture to learn about it again does not help you do anything but get frustrated. It's not everyone else's job to learn especially when theres nothing objective about it. Theres no objective list of identities that are well defined or used. Theres literally 50 I've seen myself and a lot of terms are redundant and useless. So it still sounds like the LGBTQ community is getting its crap together.

My frustration comes from the fact that a lot of people can't the get basics right. Like I said, I don't need to answer "what is non-binary?" over and over, and constantly correct pronoun usage. All I want are unconditional support from friends and family, not get excuses, but changed and learned behaviors, even my parents aren't fully there, I still lock heads with ignorance.

I don't think anyone in the lgbtq community expects cishet people to become experts on queer theory and all the nuances of gender, there is so much variation, as you said, but I just want people to know basics, use the right pronouns and names, not make a big deal out of seeing a same gender couple or non-cis person.

I try to help people, but sometimes I need a break, I can't always be your reference guide. There are some topics I can talk your ear off, but that would get boring and annoying, sometimes it's like that with holding so many impromptu Trans 101 classes. I even sent my parents resources to read. So they can remember the basics.

I could link a bunch of ben shapiro here but I won't, I will throw my opinion out here quickly.

gender and sex are the same thing, and if you are born male, you are male, born female, you are female, you cannot switch, you cannot be both, you cannot be something entirely different, and I want someone here to try to convince me otherwise

(if i don't respond it is cause i probably forgot i posted here considering I do that a lot)

Friendly reminder that Ben Shapiro got dunked on like a pack of Oreos by the Queen of Youtube. And she also disproved the whole "sex=gender" lie several years ago.

I don’t think you can obtain a brain pattern and other test results of the opposite sex by wanting to be said sex.

Quick! Literally rewire your own brain using nothing more than sheer willpower!

Depends on the mood. I've worn some feminine clothes when I'm confident enough to pass (which is not a lot of the time). I mostly wear flannel shirts because I feel less vulnerable behind them. Which lead to some friends joking I'm a butch-femme hybrid.

I've seen her in the flannel. She looks cute AF.

Gender and sex are not the same concept. Sex is the biological classification one has. While it is technically true that humans have two sexes with different gametes that are involved in reproduction, itnalso true that there individuals whomnon a biological level do not fit neatly into male or female sexes, from a biological point. Individuals with male genitalia whom have xy chromosomes, chimeras, etc do all exist. That said, typically there is a male and female dichotomy.


Gender is a concept that refers to how sex is expressed and defined in a given society. While gender typically aligns with expected biological sex, this does nkt mean that sex and gender are the same. Rather, Gender is the social expectations involved with a person's sex.


The reason why the latter was developed has nothing to do with some sort of nefarious SJW-ness. Rather, it developed in psychology and anthropology to discuss the rather complicated nature that sex and culture have with one another, and how different individuals and cultures express sex in a cultural context.

More to the point, Sex is the biological portion, Gender is studying how biology and culture interact.

Or, to put it simply, people aren't unlike computers. You have hardware (sex) and software (gender).

Good news! I started hormone therapy today, only bad thing was a blood test, it was a bit painful and nearly passed out at the sight of it, I have anxiety issues with blood and needles.

I'm so glad for you!

Update on my friend: she's out of the hospital and currently at a mental health facility receiving therapy. I haven't been able to talk to her. Turns out the attempt was pretty bad and the hospital had to restart her kidneys twice. They were only letting her parents have contact with her. She was too distraught at the hospital.

I don't know, and neither does her family, how long she'll be kept at the mental health place. I think there's a big concern about another suicide attempt if she's released at this time.

Oh, god. That's terrible news.

Some questions can be easily answered with a quick google consultation, but I shouldn't have to educate, but if not me, who is going to learn? Maybe cis allies could tell their fellow cis, but still, it just gets tiring.

And shit like this is why we need trained, LGBT+ competent sex ed instructors in schools.

There arent allies or "fellow cis". We arent grouped by how we are born. Diabetics dont expect anyone but their close family members to know how to use a glucagon kit or how to stab them with needles. Theres no need for everyone to learn even the basics about trans people unless they need to so long as they, out of ignorance, arent biased against them. Expecting everyone around you to know about your set of difficulties or challenges is going to do nothing but frustrate you.

I think that's an unhelpful attitude to have. Sure, not everyone can be fully competent in every minority concern, but there is definitely a basic minimum that should be met.

FFS, there's people (i.e., cis men) who don't understand that cis women not only bleed during their periods, but said bleeding is not willfully controllable. They actually think tampons/pads/etc. are "luxury items". That's the same level of ingrained ignorance that LGBT+ have to deal with (not just on trans issues, I've encountered coworkers who literally think being LGB is caused by child sexual abuse). We're not expecting everyone to have a fucking PhD on our issues, but not having a basic understanding of the shit that affects us causes terrible outcomes (see again, the idea that tampons/pads are "luxury" items).

Thanks!

Also, this pretty much what I had to say as well.

[Farburg]

Transgender is a disease called Gender Dysphoria. Transgender suicide rates are 36% higher than normal suicide rates, and that doesn't change even in communities which are open to people inflicted by it. It is a mental disorder just like being born a hermaphrodite is a physical deformity.

*** Warned for trolling. ***

He just gave a definition, albeit one that may have a grammatical issue in there somewhere.

[Communal concils]

Has anybody wonder why Transgenderism exist?

[Vassenor]

*** Warned for trolling. ***

He just gave a definition, albeit one that may have a grammatical issue in there somewhere.

Posting with the specific intention to start a fight is trolling, regardless of how factually correct you think the post was.

[Grenartia]

*** Warned for trolling. ***

He just gave a definition, albeit one that may have a grammatical issue in there somewhere.

Trolling is about intent, and his intent was clear.

Has anybody wonder why Transgenderism exist?

Natural variation in the human condition. No different from redhairism.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

He just gave a definition, albeit one that may have a grammatical issue in there somewhere.

Trolling is about intent, and his intent was clear.

Has anybody wonder why Transgenderism exist?

Natural variation in the human condition. No different from redhairism.

It’s not outwardly physical like red hair though, I always thought of it as within the general vicinity of conditions such as autism where the exact reasons are vague as hell.

[Communal concils]

Has anybody wonder why Transgenderism exist?

Natural variation in the human condition. No different from redhairism.

Though, isn't it the free will of individuals to become one.Like, that it isn't determined?

[Vassenor]

Natural variation in the human condition. No different from redhairism.

Though, isn't it the free will of individuals to become one.Like, that it isn't determined?

Protip: Just because you phrase it in a roundabout way doesn't make it not blatant that you're banging the "it's just a choice" drum.

[Communal concils]

Though, isn't it the free will of individuals to become one.Like, that it isn't determined?

Protip: Just because you phrase it in a roundabout way doesn't make it not blatant that you're banging the "it's just a choice" drum.

I do think that it's a choice. I think that it's a chase of free will.A individual isn't destinyed to criticize their gender.It comes through the decisions of their lives.

[Valrifell]

Trolling is about intent, and his intent was clear.



Natural variation in the human condition. No different from redhairism.

It’s not outwardly physical like red hair though, I always thought of it as within the general vicinity of conditions such as autism where the exact reasons are vague as hell.

Which is still more or less natural variation in the human condition, as far as most autism advocates are concerned.

[Auzkhia]

Has anybody wonder why Transgenderism exist?

Because it's the opposite of cisgenderism, you know those little group of people who are their assigned gender at birth. Next!

Protip: Just because you phrase it in a roundabout way doesn't make it not blatant that you're banging the "it's just a choice" drum.

I do think that it's a choice. I think that it's a chase of free will.A individual isn't destinyed to criticize their gender.It comes through the decisions of their lives.

Even if being trans were a choice (it's not), why should it matter?

Trolling is about intent, and his intent was clear.



Natural variation in the human condition. No different from redhairism.

It’s not outwardly physical like red hair though, I always thought of it as within the general vicinity of conditions such as autism where the exact reasons are vague as hell.

Having red hair is as common as being intersex and green eyes as well. Obviously, all of those things are different, but occur naturally at the same rate, 2% of the global population, iirc.

[Communal concils]

Has anybody wonder why Transgenderism exist?

Because it's the opposite of cisgenderism, you know those little group of people who are their assigned gender at birth. Next!

I do think that it's a choice. I think that it's a chase of free will.A individual isn't destinyed to criticize their gender.It comes through the decisions of their lives.

Even if being trans were a choice (it's not), why should it matter?
.

1.You mean the big amount of people borne as their natural selves. Doctors look at the biology of new borns, thats all.Transgenderism appears when the child has a mind.They aren't born "The wrong way". They have the autonomy to change themselves.


2. It matters because you can only truly understand through questioning things.If we don't question all things around us, how do humans gain intelligence? If it was not a choice, then it would have to be consider a mental illness.If all the non-conformist accept it as determined, then they accept their own choices as a mental illness.

[Ifreann]

Because it's the opposite of cisgenderism, you know those little group of people who are their assigned gender at birth. Next!

Even if being trans were a choice (it's not), why should it matter?
.

1.You mean the big amount of people borne as their natural selves. Doctors look at the biology of new borns, thats all.Transgenderism appears when the child has a mind.They aren't born "The wrong way". They have the autonomy to change themselves.


2. It matters because you can only truly understand through questioning things.If we don't question all things around us, how do humans gain intelligence? If it was not a choice, then it would have to be consider a mental illness.If all the non-conformist accept it as determined, then they accept their own choices as a mental illness.

Being different isn't a mental illness.

[Communal concils]

1.You mean the big amount of people borne as their natural selves. Doctors look at the biology of new borns, thats all.Transgenderism appears when the child has a mind.They aren't born "The wrong way". They have the autonomy to change themselves.


2. It matters because you can only truly understand through questioning things.If we don't question all things around us, how do humans gain intelligence? If it was not a choice, then it would have to be consider a mental illness.If all the non-conformist accept it as determined, then they accept their own choices as a mental illness.

Being different isn't a mental illness.

I had not said that. I said that Transgenderism is not determined, it is a choice. If transgender individuals accept that claim, then they have admitted to calling their identity as a mental illness.

[Ifreann]

Being different isn't a mental illness.

I had not said that. I said that Transgenderism is not determined, it is a choice. If transgender individuals accept that claim, then they have admitted to calling their identity as a mental illness.

Being trans isn't a choice, and the fact that it isn't a choice doesn't mean that it's a mental illness.

[Auzkhia]

Being different isn't a mental illness.

I had not said that. I said that Transgenderism is not determined, it is a choice. If transgender individuals accept that claim, then they have admitted to calling their identity as a mental illness.

I think I can speak on behalf of the trans community and say that your claim is not only rejected, but debunked.

Psychologists have looked into this, and it looks like the science disagrees with you, they have a direct answer for you.

[Communal concils]

I had not said that. I said that Transgenderism is not determined, it is a choice. If transgender individuals accept that claim, then they have admitted to calling their identity as a mental illness.

Being trans isn't a choice, and the fact that it isn't a choice doesn't mean that it's a mental illness.

Of course it is a choice, they have the ability to deny themselves transition therapy. If a person determined to change their gender(no matter the limits), then that means that they are mentally illned.
However,they wouldn't when it's their choice.A person that decides does it out of curiosity and a way of finding meaning.

[Ifreann]

Being trans isn't a choice, and the fact that it isn't a choice doesn't mean that it's a mental illness.

Of course it is a choice, they have the ability to deny themselves transition therapy. If a person determined to change their gender(no matter the limits), then that means that they are mentally illned.
However,they wouldn't when it's their choice.A person that decides does it out of curiosity and a way of finding meaning.

Being trans isn't a choice. Whether and how a trans person transitions is a choice(or ought to be), but that's doesn't mean that they've chosen to be trans. And choosing to transition isn't a mental illness.

[Borinsa]

Hey I just had a little debate in another thread that I thought was weird,
do you people really think transexual is a slur?
I thought transexual was just someone who changes their sex surgically as apposed to a transgender person who simply says they are another gender.