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Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What should the first subtitle of our next thread be?

Trans Men Are Not Women
23
24%
Anti-Cistamines
10
10%
Please Don't Deadnaming Eve
3
3%
Is This Destroying My Free Speech
8
8%
We Know More About This Than You
11
11%
HRT And Crumpets
26
27%
Pro-Nouns & Anti-Verbs
16
16%
 
Total votes : 97

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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:09 am

Trying to dismantle sex/gender/sexuality social assumptions, or the "heterosexual matrix" - eye twitch - is an absolute dud of a campaigning strategy.

It involves a small majority telling a large majority that they need to stop gendering their kids and abandon dreams and assumptions about their future that have a gendered component. It requires every social interaction to start with a declaration of pronouns, sexuality etc because woe betide anyone assume.

No, they're socially embedded assumptions because they're usually true, and the way that society works is that when you differ from these you should be able to explain that with minimal blowback providing you're not explaining you're a paedophile or something. Tolerance, leading to recognition, should be the plan, not demanding everyone wholesale abandon one of the main frameworks that people use to make sense of the world.

You can't realistically demand that society must abandon and not recognise assumptions that are true in like 90%+ of cases, and people being slightly surprised and momentarily lost for words when you reveal yourself as part of a small minority when you weren't visible as one isn't an aggression, micro or otherwise.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:20 am

The National Salvation Front for Russia wrote:Claiming that biological sex is an invalid classification because there exist a few exceptions is incredibly arbitrary.

It's not perfect, and it's not set in stone, but campaigning against its use is political, not scientific.


So is arguing that people should be defined solely by what is between their legs.
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The National Salvation Front for Russia
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Postby The National Salvation Front for Russia » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:01 am

Vassenor wrote:So is arguing that people should be defined solely by what is between their legs.

I didn't say that?

I'm only referring to sexual classification, not gender identity. I disagree with people who say that sex as a classification is useless, and although I'm not completely comfortable with trans people, I wouldn't pretend that genitalia is the only thing that matters in defining a person.
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Western Vale Confederacy
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Ex-Nation

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:05 am

Vassenor wrote:
The National Salvation Front for Russia wrote:Claiming that biological sex is an invalid classification because there exist a few exceptions is incredibly arbitrary.

It's not perfect, and it's not set in stone, but campaigning against its use is political, not scientific.


So is arguing that people should be defined solely by what is between their legs.


The possibility of tearing down a system that humanity has followed for thousands of years by a tiny minority even in relation to the already small LGBT minority is...nigh impossible.

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Anglomir
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Ex-Nation

Postby Anglomir » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:44 am

Vassenor wrote:
The National Salvation Front for Russia wrote:Claiming that biological sex is an invalid classification because there exist a few exceptions is incredibly arbitrary.

It's not perfect, and it's not set in stone, but campaigning against its use is political, not scientific.


So is arguing that people should be defined solely by what is between their legs.


You aren't defining a person. At no point ever in history has a person been defined by their gender alone. What defines a person is the person themselves. Yes, females have been persecuted, but that doesn't define who that female was. You can define a person's sex by their genitals or lack of functioning ones, and they can define their gender however they please.
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Ifreann
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:14 am

Anglomir wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The definitions you propose allow people to change their biological sex. You've rooted the definitions in anatomy, which is far from immutable. Quite a few cis women don't have a uterus. Hysterectomies are a thing. According to you, that surgery would change a person from being biologically female to biologically intersex.


The genital regions - lets say whether a penis can be inserted into a vagina classifies the biological sex, regardless of fertility. Yes people can biologically change their gender with surgery. People can change their psychological gender with communication to their fellow humans. But for the most part, sex is biological, gender is psychological, and for the vast majority of people, the two match. Some 'males' may have 'feminine' traits, but they'll still identify as male, and vice versa for females.

So erectile function causes a person to become intersex?
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Hanafuridake
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Ex-Nation

Postby Hanafuridake » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:19 am

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
So is arguing that people should be defined solely by what is between their legs.


The possibility of tearing down a system that humanity has followed for thousands of years by a tiny minority even in relation to the already small LGBT minority is...nigh impossible.


Countless societies would disagree with you about that being the standard notion for the past thousands of years. There have been (and still are) complex notions about gender identity that don't rely on biological sex. Not just in Asia, but in Europe as well (see the Albanian sworn virgins).
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:27 am

Anglomir wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:

Biological sex is not hard to define.
Male - possesses male reproductive organs; testes, penis, et. al.
Female - possesses female reproductive organs; vagina, uterus, et. al.
Intersex - possesses an almagamation / none of both of these.
The vast majority of people fit into M or F biologically. Then, they can decide their gender and be 'trans'.

You are using et al. extremely incorrectly. It is also incorrect that you can decide your own gender. And, as others have pointed out, this would be a modifiable class.
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Auzkhia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Auzkhia » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:21 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
So is arguing that people should be defined solely by what is between their legs.


The possibility of tearing down a system that humanity has followed for thousands of years by a tiny minority even in relation to the already small LGBT minority is...nigh impossible.

Not with that attitude, and it's not like hundreds of cultures had traditional "third genders" like Two Spirits of indigenous peoples in North America, the Hijra of South Asia, etc.

Gender isn't universal among everyone.
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Western Vale Confederacy
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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:17 pm

Auzkhia wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
The possibility of tearing down a system that humanity has followed for thousands of years by a tiny minority even in relation to the already small LGBT minority is...nigh impossible.

Not with that attitude, and it's not like hundreds of cultures had traditional "third genders" like Two Spirits of indigenous peoples in North America, the Hijra of South Asia, etc.

Gender isn't universal among everyone.


I did not state gender, I stated biological sex.

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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:28 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Auzkhia wrote:Not with that attitude, and it's not like hundreds of cultures had traditional "third genders" like Two Spirits of indigenous peoples in North America, the Hijra of South Asia, etc.

Gender isn't universal among everyone.


I did not state gender, I stated biological sex.

I was originally talking about the dissolving the connections between that through the abolition of the sex-gender system. I don't have much add, besides, why is it anyone's concern what genitalia, hormones, chromosomes one has?
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:27 pm

Auzkhia wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
I did not state gender, I stated biological sex.

I was originally talking about the dissolving the connections between that through the abolition of the sex-gender system. I don't have much add, besides, why is it anyone's concern what genitalia, hormones, chromosomes one has?

(except doctors and geneticists)
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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:23 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Auzkhia wrote:I was originally talking about the dissolving the connections between that through the abolition of the sex-gender system. I don't have much add, besides, why is it anyone's concern what genitalia, hormones, chromosomes one has?

(except doctors and geneticists)

Yeah, that's one case. I think it's important for the doctor to know what my body is like, but an employer or a bureaucrat handing my card or metal plate that legally allows to me operate my motor car on public roads? What's it to them? At my doctor's office, they ask for sex and gender separately, and even for one's pronouns.

But a driver's license conflates the two, and it should either be made inclusive or abolished.
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Western Vale Confederacy
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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:10 pm

Auzkhia wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:(except doctors and geneticists)

Yeah, that's one case. I think it's important for the doctor to know what my body is like, but an employer or a bureaucrat handing my card or metal plate that legally allows to me operate my motor car on public roads? What's it to them? At my doctor's office, they ask for sex and gender separately, and even for one's pronouns.

But a driver's license conflates the two, and it should either be made inclusive or abolished.


Or, y’know, it could have both.

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Elberron
Civilian
 
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Founded: Feb 14, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Elberron » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:15 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Auzkhia wrote:Yeah, that's one case. I think it's important for the doctor to know what my body is like, but an employer or a bureaucrat handing my card or metal plate that legally allows to me operate my motor car on public roads? What's it to them? At my doctor's office, they ask for sex and gender separately, and even for one's pronouns.

But a driver's license conflates the two, and it should either be made inclusive or abolished.


Or, y’know, it could have both.


Except the safety issues with having your driver's license out you as transgender in a world full of transphobic people- not to mention the fees involved with updating it, which would be necessary for most people.
Also, even in a doctors office setting, sex isn't always as relevant as your gender, particularly for those of us who have been on hormones or otherwise medically transitioned.
Last edited by Elberron on Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:07 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Auzkhia wrote:Yeah, that's one case. I think it's important for the doctor to know what my body is like, but an employer or a bureaucrat handing my card or metal plate that legally allows to me operate my motor car on public roads? What's it to them? At my doctor's office, they ask for sex and gender separately, and even for one's pronouns.

But a driver's license conflates the two, and it should either be made inclusive or abolished.


Or, y’know, it could have both.

Why though? Plus some people might find it awkward to have differing markers, which leads to someone else's comment.
Elberron wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Or, y’know, it could have both.


Except the safety issues with having your driver's license out you as transgender in a world full of transphobic people- not to mention the fees involved with updating it, which would be necessary for most people.
Also, even in a doctors office setting, sex isn't always as relevant as your gender, particularly for those of us who have been on hormones or otherwise medically transitioned.

Yes, if we had to keep sex or gender markers on gov't IDs, make it inclusive, but I think it's not relevant information and it save them on ink and therefore a little bit of money. Ideally we just remove it, thus making it non-issue. If the government wants to ask about gender, let's say on the census form, let it be an open response, not saying M or F, or maybe X.

For sex: It'd be something like amab or afab, rather than saying you're male or female. That's what I did.
My last visit I just wrote in AMAB.
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DiscussionPuppet
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Postby DiscussionPuppet » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:46 pm

Sorry to interrupt, but does anyone have any advice for someone literally too terrified and paranoid to say anything about this to anyone? I've taken upwards of 24 hours to even get up the courage to say something here, and I have even gone through the trouble of making this generic nation specifically so I could say something here without worrying about anyone I know seeing me here. I've even changed my writing style. It's only recently (past 10 days or so) that I even allowed myself to even think about this, and I honestly feel like I'm in the middle of a brutal war. I'm here because I need at least some discussion, and this is really the only place I'm virtually unrecognizable.
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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:32 pm

DiscussionPuppet wrote:Sorry to interrupt, but does anyone have any advice for someone literally too terrified and paranoid to say anything about this to anyone? I've taken upwards of 24 hours to even get up the courage to say something here, and I have even gone through the trouble of making this generic nation specifically so I could say something here without worrying about anyone I know seeing me here. I've even changed my writing style. It's only recently (past 10 days or so) that I even allowed myself to even think about this, and I honestly feel like I'm in the middle of a brutal war. I'm here because I need at least some discussion, and this is really the only place I'm virtually unrecognizable.

Sure, what's weighing on your mind?
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:30 am

DiscussionPuppet wrote:Sorry to interrupt, but does anyone have any advice for someone literally too terrified and paranoid to say anything about this to anyone? I've taken upwards of 24 hours to even get up the courage to say something here, and I have even gone through the trouble of making this generic nation specifically so I could say something here without worrying about anyone I know seeing me here. I've even changed my writing style. It's only recently (past 10 days or so) that I even allowed myself to even think about this, and I honestly feel like I'm in the middle of a brutal war. I'm here because I need at least some discussion, and this is really the only place I'm virtually unrecognizable.

Not to pry, but it's kind of important to be able to help. Are you trans/non-binary (or questioning) or are you wanting to ask about somebody else who is?
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DiscussionPuppet
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby DiscussionPuppet » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:59 pm

Trans.

I'm so terrified of even hinting at that to anyone, even in virtual anonymity. I almost didn't respond to the thread, and it was a fight to get myself to even come back. However, I realize that it's not good to just keep stuff this serious hidden from everyone. I need at least some discussion. Any advice for someone in my situation?
19, MtF, super closed off but slowly getting better

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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:03 pm

DiscussionPuppet wrote:Trans.

I'm so terrified of even hinting at that to anyone, even in virtual anonymity. I almost didn't respond to the thread, and it was a fight to get myself to even come back. However, I realize that it's not good to just keep stuff this serious hidden from everyone. I need at least some discussion. Any advice for someone in my situation?

The advice given would usually depend on your age and where you live, because that can affect whether it is a good idea to discuss this with people or to act on it safely.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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DiscussionPuppet
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Founded: Feb 17, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby DiscussionPuppet » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:14 pm

I really don't want to give away where I live, but I can tell you that I am within the ages of 18-21.
19, MtF, super closed off but slowly getting better

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Auzkhia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Auzkhia » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:46 pm

DiscussionPuppet wrote:Trans.

I'm so terrified of even hinting at that to anyone, even in virtual anonymity. I almost didn't respond to the thread, and it was a fight to get myself to even come back. However, I realize that it's not good to just keep stuff this serious hidden from everyone. I need at least some discussion. Any advice for someone in my situation?

I saw this thread, and I think it might be a good general advice for any budding trans person.
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Philjia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Philjia » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:09 pm

DiscussionPuppet wrote:Trans.

I'm so terrified of even hinting at that to anyone, even in virtual anonymity. I almost didn't respond to the thread, and it was a fight to get myself to even come back. However, I realize that it's not good to just keep stuff this serious hidden from everyone. I need at least some discussion. Any advice for someone in my situation?

How do you feel? Are you experiencing feelings of dysphoria? Are you living on your own, or with your parents?
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⚧ Trans rights. ⚧
Pragmatic ethical utopian socialist, IE I'm for whatever kind of socialism is the most moral and practical. Pro LGBT rights and gay marriage, pro gay adoption, generally internationalist, ambivalent on the EU, atheist, pro free speech and expression, pro legalisation of prostitution and soft drugs, and pro choice. Anti authoritarian, anti Marxist. White cishet male.

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Cekoviu
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Ex-Nation

Postby Cekoviu » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:13 pm

DiscussionPuppet wrote:I really don't want to give away where I live, but I can tell you that I am within the ages of 18-21.

Okay. So that means you could plausibly survive on your own and it wouldn't be illegal for you to find a job (if you do not have one already), assuming the worst-case scenario of you losing your roommate/guardians if you live with them. That puts you in a slightly better position than some younger trans adolescents/young adults. I completely understand a lack of willingness to open up about this at first, but I promise that we aren't here to judge you, and we quickly chase away anyone who is. It's a bit hard to help without knowing a little more about your situation, but here are some other resources that may broadly aid you:
- Human Rights Campaign
- American Civil Liberties Union (if you live in the United States, they can help with discrimination cases)
- The Trevor Project (also U.S.)
- AsylumConnect (seek asylum in a safer country)
- Trans Lifeline
- /r/asktransgender on Reddit
If I know your general geographic location (country or region within a larger country, or at least continent), I can also help with local resources.
pro: women's rights
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