Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Western Vale Confederacy]

That said, I do sincerely excuse myself for any wrongdoings I may have accidentally committed.

I believe in cooperation, not division, so if I have to swallow my pride, sit down and learn from those who have actually experienced the struggles, so be it.

[Grenartia]

That said, I do sincerely excuse myself for any wrongdoings I may have accidentally committed.

I believe in cooperation, not division, so if I have to swallow my pride, sit down and learn from those who have actually experienced the struggles, so be it.

Apology accepted.

[Khasinkonia]

That said, I do sincerely excuse myself for any wrongdoings I may have accidentally committed.

I believe in cooperation, not division, so if I have to swallow my pride, sit down and learn from those who have actually experienced the struggles, so be it.

I thank you for the humility to admit that you may have contributed to the aggression that may have come here, even if you didn’t know you were. Lots of folks just get upset and drop it, so I thank you for your patience. It’s a difficult position many of us are in, and I understand many of my fellow transfolks can be rather zealous, for perfectly legimate reasons. Our community still has a widespread issue with being delegitimised, so, especially with many older trans folks or trans folks from conservative environments, it’s most often an impusle to go on hardcore defensive whenever something starts to come up, because it has so often lead in the past to zealots and others barking their own morals at us in a thread to speak about our issues. Not to be presumptuous, but I think my perhaps excessive tolerance when it comes to transphobia often ends up allowing me to avoiding rubbing folks like you the wrong way, even if the cost of it is then that I end up in useless and futile debate against true transphobes.

A lot of my fellow trans folks tend to treat transphobia as a sort of cancer, so I think it’s going to be an important thing for us as a community to work on ways to differentiate between “benign transphobia”(the sort of thing where folks are very cautious about trans issues, and may not support the same things many of us trans people do, such puberty blockers) and “malignant transphobia”(fully against transitioning, hatred of trans people, etc). One can be negociated with in a constructive way, and yelling need not apply as far as I’m concerned. Malignant transphobia, I think, is the transphobia we most often think of to be transphobia, and does warrent yelling sometimes. I just think it’s really important we as a community take care to make a distinction between folks outside the community approaching things they don’t know as much about with a good deal of caution as opposed to folks outside the community approaching things they don’t know with torches and pitchforks.

[Hediacrana]

That said, I do sincerely excuse myself for any wrongdoings I may have accidentally committed.

I believe in cooperation, not division, so if I have to swallow my pride, sit down and learn from those who have actually experienced the struggles, so be it.

That's appreciated!

Different topic: I thought this (fairly long) twitter thread that, through a personal story, explains why the ability to change your gender marker is important to trans people, was a helpful read.

[Ifreann]

Utah is trying to ban people from changing the gender marker on their birth cert. The bill they've introduced for this purpose will require birth certs to list the sex of the baby, and they've included definitions to keep doctors from getting any funny ideas. If this bill is passed, Utah will define "female" as "an individual with ovaries who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing eggs and receiving sperm from a male donor."

So women in Utah have...some kind of external ovipositor?

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Utah is trying to ban people from changing the gender marker on their birth cert. The bill they've introduced for this purpose will require birth certs to list the sex of the baby, and they've included definitions to keep doctors from getting any funny ideas. If this bill is passed, Utah will define "female" as "an individual with ovaries who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing eggs and receiving sperm from a male donor."

So women in Utah have...some kind of external ovipositor?

They are getting rather elaborate and abstract with their attempts, it seems.

[Cekoviu]

Utah is trying to ban people from changing the gender marker on their birth cert. The bill they've introduced for this purpose will require birth certs to list the sex of the baby, and they've included definitions to keep doctors from getting any funny ideas. If this bill is passed, Utah will define "female" as "an individual with ovaries who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing eggs and receiving sperm from a male donor."

So women in Utah have...some kind of external ovipositor?

I'm a woman from Utah, and I can confirm that we do indeed have external ovipositors. Also, that bill's not gonna pass.

[Auzkhia]

Utah is trying to ban people from changing the gender marker on their birth cert. The bill they've introduced for this purpose will require birth certs to list the sex of the baby, and they've included definitions to keep doctors from getting any funny ideas. If this bill is passed, Utah will define "female" as "an individual with ovaries who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing eggs and receiving sperm from a male donor."

So women in Utah have...some kind of external ovipositor?

Bio-essentialism rears its ugly head again.

I wonder if any TERFs were involved or this was just conservatives' handiwork. Those two groups have collaborated together against their common enemy.

Gender has no biological basis.

[Cekoviu]

Utah is trying to ban people from changing the gender marker on their birth cert. The bill they've introduced for this purpose will require birth certs to list the sex of the baby, and they've included definitions to keep doctors from getting any funny ideas. If this bill is passed, Utah will define "female" as "an individual with ovaries who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing eggs and receiving sperm from a male donor."

So women in Utah have...some kind of external ovipositor?

Bio-essentialism rears its ugly head again.

I wonder if any TERFs were involved or this was just conservatives' handiwork. Those two groups have collaborated together against their common enemy.

Gender has no biological basis.

I really doubt that TERFs were involved. Every single feminist I know here is either LGBTQ or a big LGBTQ ally, and there aren't really that many. Transphobia isn't actually really big here, since the Mormon church doesn't really have specific widely-disseminated rules on it (unlike for gay people).

I would clarify that statement if I were you -- there may well be a genetic basis. It's just not the same as sex.

[The Blaatschapen]

Utah is trying to ban people from changing the gender marker on their birth cert. The bill they've introduced for this purpose will require birth certs to list the sex of the baby, and they've included definitions to keep doctors from getting any funny ideas. If this bill is passed, Utah will define "female" as "an individual with ovaries who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing eggs and receiving sperm from a male donor."

So women in Utah have...some kind of external ovipositor?

How will they define men?

And then, how will they define people that show characteristics of both?

[Ifreann]

Utah is trying to ban people from changing the gender marker on their birth cert. The bill they've introduced for this purpose will require birth certs to list the sex of the baby, and they've included definitions to keep doctors from getting any funny ideas. If this bill is passed, Utah will define "female" as "an individual with ovaries who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing eggs and receiving sperm from a male donor."

So women in Utah have...some kind of external ovipositor?

I'm a woman from Utah, and I can confirm that we do indeed have external ovipositors.

[screaming externally]

Also, that bill's not gonna pass.

Sobek be praised.

[The Blaatschapen]

Utah is trying to ban people from changing the gender marker on their birth cert. The bill they've introduced for this purpose will require birth certs to list the sex of the baby, and they've included definitions to keep doctors from getting any funny ideas. If this bill is passed, Utah will define "female" as "an individual with ovaries who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing eggs and receiving sperm from a male donor."

So women in Utah have...some kind of external ovipositor?

I'm a woman from Utah, and I can confirm that we do indeed have external ovipositors. Also, that bill's not gonna pass.

Can we have pictures?

[The New California Republic]

Utah is trying to ban people from changing the gender marker on their birth cert. The bill they've introduced for this purpose will require birth certs to list the sex of the baby, and they've included definitions to keep doctors from getting any funny ideas. If this bill is passed, Utah will define "female" as "an individual with ovaries who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing eggs and receiving sperm from a male donor."

So women in Utah have...some kind of external ovipositor?

How will they define men?

It'll probably include a line about the Utah peen being jaw-droppingly magnificent and infinitely superior to all the other peens in the nation.

[Ifreann]

Utah is trying to ban people from changing the gender marker on their birth cert. The bill they've introduced for this purpose will require birth certs to list the sex of the baby, and they've included definitions to keep doctors from getting any funny ideas. If this bill is passed, Utah will define "female" as "an individual with ovaries who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing eggs and receiving sperm from a male donor."

So women in Utah have...some kind of external ovipositor?

How will they define men?

Similarly.
"an individual with testes who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing and delivering sperm to a female recipient."

But that's a workable if weird description of the human pen0r.

And then, how will they define people that show characteristics of both?

"HB 153 would require birth certificates to be completed as fully as possible and include:
[...]the sex of the child as male or female or, if the sex cannot be factually determined at birth, undetermined;"
They don't specify that they mean XOR, so I guess they tick the M and F boxes.

[Cekoviu]

I'm a woman from Utah, and I can confirm that we do indeed have external ovipositors. Also, that bill's not gonna pass.

Can we have pictures?

You asked (nsfw)

[Cekoviu]

How will they define men?

It'll probably include a line about the Utah peen being jaw-droppingly magnificent and infinitely superior to all the other peens in the nation.

I wouldn't say they're magnificent, but they're definitely jaw-dropping.

[The New California Republic]

Can we have pictures?

You asked (nsfw)

MY EYES.

[Valrifell]

Can we have pictures?

You asked (nsfw)

Owo, what's this?

[Auzkhia]

Bio-essentialism rears its ugly head again.

I wonder if any TERFs were involved or this was just conservatives' handiwork. Those two groups have collaborated together against their common enemy.

Gender has no biological basis.

I really doubt that TERFs were involved. Every single feminist I know here is either LGBTQ or a big LGBTQ ally, and there aren't really that many. Transphobia isn't actually really big here, since the Mormon church doesn't really have specific widely-disseminated rules on it (unlike for gay people).

I would clarify that statement if I were you -- there may well be a genetic basis. It's just not the same as sex.

True, they usually are a loud minority.

It is largely a social construct, and its basis comes from personal identity.

[Neutraligon]

Utah is trying to ban people from changing the gender marker on their birth cert. The bill they've introduced for this purpose will require birth certs to list the sex of the baby, and they've included definitions to keep doctors from getting any funny ideas. If this bill is passed, Utah will define "female" as "an individual with ovaries who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing eggs and receiving sperm from a male donor."

So women in Utah have...some kind of external ovipositor?

So how define someone who is not born with ovaries but has all other sexual markers of female?

[Ifreann]

Utah is trying to ban people from changing the gender marker on their birth cert. The bill they've introduced for this purpose will require birth certs to list the sex of the baby, and they've included definitions to keep doctors from getting any funny ideas. If this bill is passed, Utah will define "female" as "an individual with ovaries who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing eggs and receiving sperm from a male donor."

So women in Utah have...some kind of external ovipositor?

So how define someone who is not born with ovaries but has all other sexual markers of female?

Undetermined.

And come to think of it, they'd have to check for ovaries and...how do you even do that? MRI every female newborn?

[Cekoviu]

You asked (nsfw)

Owo, what's this?

I use parthenogenesis to reproduce, so don't get any ideas m8.

[Grenartia]

How will they define men?

Similarly.
"an individual with testes who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing and delivering sperm to a female recipient."

But that's a workable if weird description of the human pen0r.

And then, how will they define people that show characteristics of both?

"HB 153 would require birth certificates to be completed as fully as possible and include:
[...]the sex of the child as male or female or, if the sex cannot be factually determined at birth, undetermined;"
They don't specify that they mean XOR, so I guess they tick the M and F boxes.

TIL Utah wants to become the next state to add a non-binary gender option to the birth certificate.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Similarly.
"an individual with testes who is confirmed before or at birth to have external anatomical characteristics that appear to have the purpose of performing the natural reproductive function of providing and delivering sperm to a female recipient."

But that's a workable if weird description of the human pen0r.


"HB 153 would require birth certificates to be completed as fully as possible and include:
[...]the sex of the child as male or female or, if the sex cannot be factually determined at birth, undetermined;"
They don't specify that they mean XOR, so I guess they tick the M and F boxes.

TIL Utah wants to become the next state to add a non-binary gender option to the birth certificate.

Isn't it SEX and not GENDER marked on the birth certificate, though?

[Northern Davincia]

TIL Utah wants to become the next state to add a non-binary gender option to the birth certificate.

Isn't it SEX and not GENDER marked on the birth certificate, though?

Ideally, yes.