Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Vassenor]

That seems to be an arbitrary excuse not to accept trans people.
How does technology change anything about their identity?

Well, can you provide manpower for the nation to draw on? See, imo the moment they can bear children is the moment their persecution starts to wane, as they’ll be just like male and female. Again, just my opinion, I am sorry if I offended you or something.

So you don't accept infertile people as human either?

[Ruskland-Preuben]

Well, can you provide manpower for the nation to draw on? See, imo the moment they can bear children is the moment their persecution starts to wane, as they’ll be just like male and female. Again, just my opinion, I am sorry if I offended you or something.

So you don't accept infertile people as human either?

Not just manpower, but what they can do. Can these infertile people work? No issue.
Now cripples on the other hand, yeah we’re going to need better prosthetic technology, which we have.

[Vassenor]

So you don't accept infertile people as human either?

Not just manpower, but what they can do. Can these infertile people work? No issue.
Now cripples on the other hand, yeah we’re going to need better prosthetic technology, which we have.

How does being trans stop someone from working?

[Dumb Ideologies]

Not just manpower, but what they can do. Can these infertile people work? No issue.
Now cripples on the other hand, yeah we’re going to need better prosthetic technology, which we have.

How does being trans stop someone from working?

Occasionally dysphoria makes your arms turn into machine guns or rollcake dispensers. Very unreliable in the workplace, can't employ.

[Vassenor]

How does being trans stop someone from working?

Occasionally dysphoria makes your arms turn into machine guns or rollcake dispensers. Very unreliable in the workplace, can't employ.

...OK where did I leave my giant key...

[Grenartia]

So, after some idiot writer (E J Levy) decided to misgender Dr. James Barry in her latest book, and book twitter and trans twitter both justifiably blew up in response, someone on twitter reposted some info that will hopefully ensure your memory is respected after death: http://www.orderofthegooddeath.com/dying-trans-preserving-identity-death.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

How does being trans stop someone from working?

Occasionally dysphoria makes your arms turn into machine guns or rollcake dispensers. Very unreliable in the workplace, can't employ.

At least dysphoria doesn’t directly impact one’s ability at social relations and two-way communication.

[Proctopeo]

Not much any more, no, but during 2015 and 2016 they definitely did.

Not even then. I was there.

You were where? I didn't specify any specific website or location on the globe, just a broad period of two years.

"Truscum" is rarely used in a self-referential manner outside of that brief era as well.

I'll grant you that its equally non-self-referential.

How 'bout we use the terms actually used in self-reference, instead of the ones that come packaged with major judgement?

[Grenartia]

Not even then. I was there.

You were where? I didn't specify any specific website or location on the globe, just a broad period of two years.

In the trans community. It is highly likely I would have known if the term started being used self-referentially.

I'll grant you that its equally non-self-referential.

How 'bout we use the terms actually used in self-reference, instead of the ones that come packaged with major judgement?

You're the only one who seems adamant about doing that. Why?

[The New California Republic]

I will only accept trans people once technology has advanced to the point that MtF can bear children and FtM can produce sperm.

What a really odd metric to use.

You do realize that trans people can have eggs and sperm preserved before the transition becomes irreversible, right? Meaning that they could have some capacity for having children, if that's the problem you have with it?

[Proctopeo]

You were where? I didn't specify any specific website or location on the globe, just a broad period of two years.

In the trans community. It is highly likely I would have known if the term started being used self-referentially.

I put it at 7.5%, and that's being generous. The earliest mention of "tucute" in this context seems to date from around mid-2014. So it seems like I got the time-frame incorrect: it's 2014-2015 (but definitely with some usage during 2016), with a recent resurgence in 2018... I'll look into the "why" of that, but it's probably not something positive.

How 'bout we use the terms actually used in self-reference, instead of the ones that come packaged with major judgement?

You're the only one who seems adamant about doing that. Why?

Why not? What benefit do you gain from using loaded terms?

[Cekoviu]

Unpopular opinion: I will only accept trans people once technology has advanced to the point that MtF can bear children and FtM can produce sperm.
Seeing the trend of tech, not long.

I'm assuming that you consider infertile cis women to be men?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Unpopular opinion: I will only accept trans people once technology has advanced to the point that MtF can bear children and FtM can produce sperm.
Seeing the trend of tech, not long.

No one is asking you to marry them, so I can't see why that would be much of a concern to how you treat people unless you're a pedant-supreme.

[Valrifell]

Unpopular opinion: I will only accept trans people once technology has advanced to the point that MtF can bear children and FtM can produce sperm.
Seeing the trend of tech, not long.

Hot take: "I will only support Trans people once X happens" people will never support trans people and just need excuses to invalidate them in the now.

[Auzkhia]

Unpopular opinion: I will only accept trans people once technology has advanced to the point that MtF can bear children and FtM can produce sperm.
Seeing the trend of tech, not long.

Hot take: "I will only support Trans people once X happens" will never support trans people and just need excuses to invalidate them in the now.

This

Conditional support is no support.

Ultimately one thing I, at least, would like to get rid off is the sex-gender system, in which biological sex (which really isn't as binary or consistent as people think it is) can signify one's gender and sexual orientation.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Hot take: "I will only support Trans people once X happens" will never support trans people and just need excuses to invalidate them in the now.

This

Conditional support is no support.

Ultimately one thing I, at least, would like to get rid off is the sex-gender system, in which biological sex (which really isn't as binary or consistent as people think it is) can signify one's gender and sexual orientation.

Considering that the definition of sex has withstood the tests of time, it’s hopeful to think that you can somehow suddenly dismantle it.

Gender’s a different story, but with biological sex, you’re gonna be hitting a very thick brick wall.

[Cekoviu]

This

Conditional support is no support.

Ultimately one thing I, at least, would like to get rid off is the sex-gender system, in which biological sex (which really isn't as binary or consistent as people think it is) can signify one's gender and sexual orientation.

Considering that the definition of sex has withstood the tests of time, it’s hopeful to think that you can somehow suddenly dismantle it.

Gender’s a different story, but with biological sex, you’re gonna be hitting a very thick brick wall.

Biological sex is an incredibly slippery and hard-to-define set of ideas that has different meanings and uses depending on what you're doing. If you can define sex in a 100% accurate, always-applicable, and counterexample-resistant manner, then I'll believe you. Until then, I will continue to hold that biological sex is not one monolithic means of classifying people and thus cannot be used in any or even most contexts.

[Anglomir]

Biological sex is not hard to define.
Male - possesses male reproductive organs; testes, penis, et. al.
Female - possesses female reproductive organs; vagina, uterus, et. al.
Intersex - possesses an almagamation / none of both of these.
The vast majority of people fit into M or F biologically. Then, they can decide their gender and be 'trans'.

[United Muscovite Nations]

It's fine to maintain biological sex as a classifier, but systems of classification are socially constructed, and should be malleable when confronted with things that make human life inconvenient.

[Ifreann]

Biological sex is not hard to define.
Male - possesses male reproductive organs; testes, penis, et. al.
Female - possesses female reproductive organs; vagina, uterus, et. al.
Intersex - possesses an almagamation / none of both of these.
The vast majority of people fit into M or F biologically. Then, they can decide their gender and be 'trans'.

The definitions you propose allow people to change their biological sex. You've rooted the definitions in anatomy, which is far from immutable. Quite a few cis women don't have a uterus. Hysterectomies are a thing. According to you, that surgery would change a person from being biologically female to biologically intersex.

[Anglomir]

Biological sex is not hard to define.
Male - possesses male reproductive organs; testes, penis, et. al.
Female - possesses female reproductive organs; vagina, uterus, et. al.
Intersex - possesses an almagamation / none of both of these.
The vast majority of people fit into M or F biologically. Then, they can decide their gender and be 'trans'.

The definitions you propose allow people to change their biological sex. You've rooted the definitions in anatomy, which is far from immutable. Quite a few cis women don't have a uterus. Hysterectomies are a thing. According to you, that surgery would change a person from being biologically female to biologically intersex.

The genital regions - lets say whether a penis can be inserted into a vagina classifies the biological sex, regardless of fertility. Yes people can biologically change their gender with surgery. People can change their psychological gender with communication to their fellow humans. But for the most part, sex is biological, gender is psychological, and for the vast majority of people, the two match. Some 'males' may have 'feminine' traits, but they'll still identify as male, and vice versa for females.

[Neutraligon]

The definitions you propose allow people to change their biological sex. You've rooted the definitions in anatomy, which is far from immutable. Quite a few cis women don't have a uterus. Hysterectomies are a thing. According to you, that surgery would change a person from being biologically female to biologically intersex.

The genital regions - lets say whether a penis can be inserted into a vagina classifies the biological sex, regardless of fertility. Yes people can biologically change their gender with surgery. People can change their psychological gender with communication to their fellow humans. But for the most part, sex is biological, gender is psychological, and for the vast majority of people, the two match. Some 'males' may have 'feminine' traits, but they'll still identify as male, and vice versa for females.

There are females born with no opening for the vagina or no vagina at all.

[Auzkhia]

This

Conditional support is no support.

Ultimately one thing I, at least, would like to get rid off is the sex-gender system, in which biological sex (which really isn't as binary or consistent as people think it is) can signify one's gender and sexual orientation.

Considering that the definition of sex has withstood the tests of time, it’s hopeful to think that you can somehow suddenly dismantle it.

Gender’s a different story, but with biological sex, you’re gonna be hitting a very thick brick wall.

Biological sex is not binary, it simply has a bimodal distribution.

Imagine AMAB and AFAB as two mountains. In between mountains, you have valleys, and the valleys are intersex.

I personally think, in daily matters, one's biological isn't relevant. I was amab, but not male.

However, on legal documents and IDs, they conflate sex and gender, which is why many countries and states adopt a third X option. Legal recognition is a small step in achieving societal legitimacy.

[Anglomir]

They aren't females, they're intersex.

[The National Salvation Front for Russia]

Claiming that biological sex is an invalid classification because there exist a few exceptions is incredibly arbitrary.

It's not perfect, and it's not set in stone, but campaigning against its use is political, not scientific.