Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[United Muscovite Nations]

Whether there are two or more sexes or genders is ultimately immaterial, they are both just simple ways of classifying people. The system of classification should be tailored people and not the other way around, if people with gender dysphoria/gender identity disorder are suffering because of the way they are classified by society, there's no reason to not alter the system to meet their needs. The first priority should be to care for the people affected by the gaps in our social structures.

[New haven america]

Still no. Intersex is a thing.

Isn’t it exceptionally rare, though?

No, actually.

However, what makes up intersex people is (XXY, hermaphrodites, etc...).

[Proctopeo]

Stop trying to get hot takes, what's wrong with accepting people. Does it hurt you? There are two BIOLOGICAL sexes.

Still no. Intersex is a thing.

IMO that doesn't really... count as a functional difference.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Still no. Intersex is a thing.

IMO that doesn't really... count as a functional difference.

Sigh
Multiple societies have more then two genders
Claiming that more genders can’t exist is ignoring other cultures

[Proctopeo]

IMO that doesn't really... count as a functional difference.

Sigh
Multiple societies have more then two genders
Claiming that more genders can’t exist is ignoring other cultures

We're talking sexes, not genders.

[The Mercurians of Hermes]

Sigh
Multiple societies have more then two genders
Claiming that more genders can’t exist is ignoring other cultures

We're talking sexes, not genders.

Intersex is a mix, but yes I agree a lot of cultures have more than two genders.

[The Mercurians of Hermes]

Also, again, how can I help my transboy, MtF friend? He has strict homophobic and transphobic parents, who shunned his brother for two years after his brother came out as gay. They've posted on social media that they've been getting depressed lately, and I don't want them to be sad.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Also, again, how can I help my transboy, MtF friend? He has strict homophobic and transphobic parents, who shunned his brother for two years after his brother came out as gay. They've posted on social media that they've been getting depressed lately, and I don't want them to be sad.

How old are they?

[Neutraligon]

Also, again, how can I help my transboy, MtF friend? He has strict homophobic and transphobic parents, who shunned his brother for two years after his brother came out as gay. They've posted on social media that they've been getting depressed lately, and I don't want them to be sad.

How old are they?

They answered earlier, young. The sad thing is at that age I would think it is best to continue to hide it. They will be dependent on their parents for a while longer. The best thing for them is to probably start figuring out how to become financially independent as quickly as possible.

[United Muscovite Nations]

How old are they?

They answered earlier, young. The sad thing is at that age I would think it is best to continue to hide it. They will be dependent on their parents for a while longer. The best thing for them is to probably start figuring out how to become financially independent as quickly as possible.

Yeah, that is unfortunate. Unless they have another way to get along, then the best thing probably is to remain closeted.

[The Mercurians of Hermes]

They answered earlier, young. The sad thing is at that age I would think it is best to continue to hide it. They will be dependent on their parents for a while longer. The best thing for them is to probably start figuring out how to become financially independent as quickly as possible.

Yeah, that is unfortunate. Unless they have another way to get along, then the best thing probably is to remain closeted.

Thanks anyways for answering.

[Farnhamia]

Yeah, that is unfortunate. Unless they have another way to get along, then the best thing probably is to remain closeted.

Thanks anyways for answering.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=285075

That's our sticky thread listing resources for folks feeling depressed or suicidal (heaven forfend that your SO is in the latter category). It might be worthwhile having a look and taking advantage. And hang in there.

[Vassenor]

So apparently I've reached the point where dys feelings kicking in can pretty much wreck my day before I've even made it out of bed.

Wonderful. =\

[Grenartia]

Not necessarily.

It is entirely possible and valid for a transgirl to be ok with having a flat chest and her original genitals. If she's fine with her body's fat distribution, bone structure, hair, etc., then why does she need to spend a whole bunch of money on HRT and SRS just to be seen as a valid girl in the eyes of society and the government?

That attitude also runs really quickly into gender policing territory.

Doesn't necessarily have to be body dysphoria - most trans people will at least have some dysphoria (our hypothetical trans woman would probably be socially dysphoric even if she doesn't mind her body).

I mean, physical dysphoria is the one everyone presumes anytime we talk about dysphoria. That's the reason 'social dysphoria' as a term exists, to distinguish it from physical dysphoria.

And anyway, I said you wouldn't need to transition medically if you didn't have body dysphoria.

But there are some cases where you would be perfectly fine living as one gender, but the other is somewhat more affirming, so you transition. I don't intend to demean non-dysphoric trans people by saying most were initially dysphoric.

Fair enough.

Ah. Well, strictly speaking, that's correct. Not sure why someone would transition if they don't have dysphoria, though. Just needlessly difficult.

Exactly

Of course, my position is that trans people deserve acceptance because of their dysphoria.

Your position should be that trans people deserve acceptance regardless of whether or not we have dysphoria.

But if you wear baggy jeans and grow your hair out, you’re not trans

Not inherently, no. Identifying as a gender other than the one associated with the sex you were assigned at birth makes you trans. End of.

and you shouldn’t be entitled to have your employer call your zeeself and sue them if they don’t.

I mean, not calling somebody by their preferred pronouns once you have been made aware of their preference IS verbal harrassment.

It's a term intended to mock the people who say that dysphoria is not 100% necessary to be transgender.

IIRC it originated from a trans Tumblr user, one of the stereotypical ones (she's also a terrible person fyi). That's also where "truscum" comes from.
You got them pretty backwards; "tucute" is a self-congratulatory term for those who say it's in no way a requirement, while "truscum" is a term intended to mock the people who say that it is. They're literally just corruptions of "too cute" and "true scum".

Nobody ever uses "tucute" in a self-referential manner.

Why should people need to suffer dysphoria to be accepted by society?

Why should society accept you? Why should society, hundreds of millions of people, thousands of institutions private and public, have to accept one little individual person?

Because society itself is made up of individual people. Why shouldn't it accept "one little individual person"?

Lol churn!

But seriously, I don’t have any problem with trans people doing their thing. But I’m a libertarian about this. Meaning people can think how they want and feel how they want, and if they think trans people are gross disgusting degenerates, as long as they post on /pol/ and don’t harass trans people in public, they have that right. By extension, you don’t have to employ trans people if you don’t want to or give them any extra accommodation. Now, if you want to push back against that, dysphoria is a good reason to provide such accommodation, given that it is a disability. But this doesn’t apply to enbies and their weird lifestyle.

Implying NB people don't have dysphoria. I can personally confirm that many of us do.

But my dislike of enbies doesn’t end there. I just can’t respect someone who goes on non-binary.org and says they’re Frostgender, a gender that is cold and snowy.

Ever consider the possibility that a troll who hates NB people made that to make us all look ridiculous by association?

Don't respond to provocation with more provocation.

What "provocation" would that be?

I think one, if not THE, key concept in avoiding being discriminatory is empathy. Take me for example:
I honeslty don’t understand how nonbinary folks do it. Their sort of gender dysphoria is a mystery to me. How could someone be a gender outside of male and female when all my life I’ve only been exposed to those two? How could someone’s gender change fluidly? I could use these questions that seemingly only have simple answers of “They just do” as reasoning for invalidating nonbinary folks, certainly. But then I remind myself that cis people ask themselves “How could someone’s gender be different from their assigned one at birth—and what does asab even mean?” and could use that in the same way.

It’s empathy, and understanding that one might not always be able to even grasp someone else’s experience on a fundamental level that begets acceptance. So does someone need dysphoria to be valid as a trans person? Well, if someone’s motivated enough to transition, chances are they’re valid, far as I’m concerned.

Thank you.

One serious problem with supporting the notion “dysphoria is necessary to be trans” is that it ironically can be harmful to transgender people who have dysphoria but don't realize that they're suffering from it because narratives and media push extreme examples, such as a transgender child wanting to commit castration. Dysphoria can range from mild to extreme, but someone's identity shouldn't be devalued based on how little they suffer from psychological distress. That's pointlessly masochistic.

So, like, it took me a long ass time for me to finally hatch after cracking, precisely because its so hard to describe what dysphoria feels like (short of the extreme cases like "3 YEAR OLD TRIES TO CASTRATE SELF", or the "I always wore my mom/my sister's clothes and makeup as a kid and played with dolls" that every cis person thinks of), that I didn't know I had it until someone described it in just the right way.

So if acknowledging that you don't need to have it to be valid as a trans person will help someone hatch sooner, I'm all for doing that.

Hey, I'm not trans/dysphoric, (I'm Bi/pan) but I have a friend who is assigned at birth, female, but is a transboy. He has very homophobic/transphobic parents, and IDK what to do to help. Thanks, The Mercurians.

Age?

Also, knowing what jurisdiction (nothing specific, just like, a nearby city or something) would definitely help, since laws and resources vary drastically from one area to the next.

It is inefficient to debate people over things which will not change. It is more efficient to accept people for things that do no harm which will not change, as futile debate is inefficient. Further, happiness increases productivity. I rest my case.

They can helped to fix their ailment, accepting these “genders” is just further driving a wedge between people as everyone strives to stand out, to me there are only 2 genders male and female.

Those...are definitely words that you just said. They don't make a lick of sense in that order, but they're definitely words.

Funny thing, the thing that ha been shown to "fix" the ailment is transition and acceptance by peers and family.

Any kind of mental disorder can be fixed. You just need to put aside morality, besides a lobotomy can cure them just as good.

Good fucking lord. Lobotomies? What is this, the dark ages?

There are hundreds of "genders" that are just there to clog up the gender system, and may actually cause harm to actual transgenders. We need to help the transgenders by recognizing that fake genders will just hurt the real trans people, just as much as the Soviets hurt trans people.

What the fuck? Like, what the actual fuck are you even talking about?

Not responding directly to you, but generally on the idea of "truscum".

My point is that when people talk about "truscum" or "trenders" it's usually a rhetorical move, putting forward a sockpuppet character that people are then challenged to disassociate themselves from. These groups are vanishingly small in actually-existing "pure" form, so talking about them is usually about trying to create a binary of "agree with my position" or "be one of THEM". In reality we all have a wide variety of opinions on what gender is, what the transition pathway should look like, what needs to change socially etc.

I'll give myself as an example - as a treat you can have my undiluted views, meme-free, for one night only

I'm binary. I think the people who waffle on online about a gender identity that's several lines long in description or that contains elements that having nothing to do with gender are a very small section of the community, and one that can be fairly disparaged without it becoming a slippery slope in which anyone who isn't binary gets chased by giant erasers.

I don't like queer theory and notions of performative gender. These ideas have largely been formulated and pushed by dysphoria-free and largely middle-class university-educated post-Foucaudlian libertarians who will never need to personally access a public healthcare system for treatment due to the nature of their identity. I think that this, as well as resentment towards the transsexuals who have historically dominated the "T" section of the community, is actually a big factor in why they argue what they do; to the point that it can't be analytically ignored without losing something in the analysis.

My experience of gender identity has been very much related to dysphoria and the body. The idea of "gender as drag" and performance isn't only literally the worst language they could possibly choose, but it's entirely alien to me. When people start talking about this being "the community's" theory of gender I feel like a faction of people who have very different life experiences to me are pushing a theory that's both wrong and politically functions to erode support for state-funded treatment. Queer theorists and moral crusaders of the religious or TERF flavour are, to me, uncomfortably close on a gender theory horseshoe. I actually mind these people a lot more than I mind outright transphobes to be honest, because at least those are simple and you can talk with everything on the table. With the queer theorists I'm unsure whether it's a case of them being so self-centred and smug that they genuinely think their club-handed bungle of an intervention into the debate is in our best interest and that we transitioners/SUBMITTERS TO BIOPOWER just don't understand ourselves, or they're slippery enough to tell a very very big lie with the active intention of fucking people over. At the same time, a lot of the people who don't have dysphoria either aren't political or don't hold to that view, and I'm fine with them. Queer theorists are generally non-dysphoric, but most non-dysphoric trans people aren't queer theorists.

Similarly, I would describe my politics as - though, yeah, it's problematic - somewhat conservative. My history has been one where I've transitioned partly to fit in better with wider society, and as a collectivist rather than an individualist I think society is about compromise and change is best achieved through wider societal dialogue and, yes, trying to be a respectable and respectful as possible. So while I have no problem whatsoever with non-binary people, I'm not going to use pronouns beyond "they" because creating a novel pronoun and trying to force it into the language when there's a perfectly serviceable neutral pronoun available feels to me like bordering on narcissistic in its extreme individualistic position on the relationship between individual and society. I can't honestly sign up to that.

This is a combination of views that has got the label thrown in my direction on occasion elsewhere, but it's pretty far from the straw "truscumite". I feel like a lot of the snarls, whether "truscum" or "trender", emanate from natural disagreements based on different experiences, high tensions on issues relating to fundamental identity, and the impossible pressure to ignore difference when subgroups are always going to be trying to grab the wheel to steer it towards their own personal interests and politics, as is life.

I honestly haven't actually encountered many queer theorists that deligimitized people who suffer dysphoria or who want to medically transition. I personally strongly ascribe to queer liberationist positions, yet I also suffer dysphoria and have been medically transitioning for over a year now. I definitely have never seen people using queer theory to argue against trans healthcare, and am really sorry that you've encountered hostility in that regard.

The only times I've ever seen queer theory utilized against recognition of binary trans people or trans people with dsyphoria is from TERFS, whom have also tended to oppose most elements of queer theory aside from occasionally taking gender abolitionist stances or adopting "political lesbianism".

I'll also say that the idea of gender abolition can be highly varied depending on who you are talking to and how they personally understand it. For me, I would like to see gender roles abolished and an end to the hegemony of the Western gender binary as the dominant social understanding of gender. I don't wish to see the abolition of personal identities and the ways that they wish to express their gender, merely the removal of artificial constraints on how one may express their gender. I definitely don't believe that we need to all abandon our gender identities, nor do I thing that dysphoria would disappear in such a society. I believe gender dysphoria could be lessened if we moved to a society that didn't automatically gender people based on their physical characteristics, but the sense of alienation from one's own body certainly would likely still exist even without the immense social pressure trans people are under to transition if they ever want to be accepted for who they are.

Best take I've seen all night.

Still no. Intersex is a thing.

Isn’t it exceptionally rare, though?

Its rarity doesn't make it less of an inherent refutation of the sex binary.

Whether there are two or more sexes or genders is ultimately immaterial, they are both just simple ways of classifying people. The system of classification should be tailored people and not the other way around, if people with gender dysphoria/gender identity disorder are suffering because of the way they are classified by society, there's no reason to not alter the system to meet their needs. The first priority should be to care for the people affected by the gaps in our social structures.

That's a pretty good take, too.

So apparently I've reached the point where dys feelings kicking in can pretty much wreck my day before I've even made it out of bed.

Wonderful. =\

Fucking ouch.

[Proctopeo]

IIRC it originated from a trans Tumblr user, one of the stereotypical ones (she's also a terrible person fyi). That's also where "truscum" comes from.
You got them pretty backwards; "tucute" is a self-congratulatory term for those who say it's in no way a requirement, while "truscum" is a term intended to mock the people who say that it is. They're literally just corruptions of "too cute" and "true scum".

Nobody ever uses "tucute" in a self-referential manner.

Not much any more, no, but during 2015 and 2016 they definitely did.
"Truscum" is rarely used in a self-referential manner outside of that brief era as well.

[Auzkhia]

One serious problem with supporting the notion “dysphoria is necessary to be trans” is that it ironically can be harmful to transgender people who have dysphoria but don't realize that they're suffering from it because narratives and media push extreme examples, such as a transgender child wanting to commit castration. Dysphoria can range from mild to extreme, but someone's identity shouldn't be devalued based on how little they suffer from psychological distress. That's pointlessly masochistic.

Yeah, I used to deny myself from questioning my gender because I thought I couldn't be dysphoric enough to be trans. Don't know why I had that impression, I think my exposure to the trans community as a cis ally/egg had been with some people irl and online that hold that gatekeepy belief, and I tried to make the cis male identity, I had assigned to me, work until I realized it could never work out.

Yet, I didn't really knew what it felt like to have gender dysphoria until after I realized I was trans and nb.

[Hediacrana]

Not responding directly to you, but generally on the idea of "truscum".

My point is that when people talk about "truscum" or "trenders" it's usually a rhetorical move, putting forward a sockpuppet character that people are then challenged to disassociate themselves from. These groups are vanishingly small in actually-existing "pure" form, so talking about them is usually about trying to create a binary of "agree with my position" or "be one of THEM". In reality we all have a wide variety of opinions on what gender is, what the transition pathway should look like, what needs to change socially etc.

I'll give myself as an example - as a treat you can have my undiluted views, meme-free, for one night only

(snip)

Thanks for clarifying that, and also for the extended, meme-free views While my views are pretty different from yours in many ways (you probably figured that at this point), I do always helpful to see how you connect it to your personal experiences - I appreciate you sharing those.

My experiences are somewhat different too, both in that I am nonbinary and in that queer theory has in fact helped me, personally, to make sense of some of these things. I can certainly see how a view of gender as purely performative would give someone whose experience of being trans has been closely connected with strong physical dysphoria the heebie-jeebies (athough I also think it's fair to point out that even Judith Butler has explicitly rejected such a view). But gender is a complicated thing with many aspects, and I think that putting the performative aspect on the radar was not without merit, even if a reductively performative view would take things too far and obscure other important dimensions.

I feel like a lot of the snarls, whether "truscum" or "trender", emanate from natural disagreements based on different experiences, high tensions on issues relating to fundamental identity, and the impossible pressure to ignore difference when subgroups are always going to be trying to grab the wheel to steer it towards their own personal interests and politics, as is life.

Well, yeah, it may be logical for tensions within a very diverse coalition to occur, but I wouldn't like to dispense with that coalition either.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Thanks for clarifying that, and also for the extended, meme-free views While my views are pretty different from yours in many ways (you probably figured that at this point), I do always helpful to see how you connect it to your personal experiences - I appreciate you sharing those.

Glad it was useful. Big effortposts are always a gamble here as dramas with temporary visitors are prone to bury them

My experiences are somewhat different too, both in that I am nonbinary and in that queer theory has in fact helped me, personally, to make sense of some of these things. I can certainly see how a view of gender as purely performative would give someone whose experience of being trans has been closely connected with strong physical dysphoria the heebie-jeebies (athough I also think it's fair to point out that even Judith Butler has explicitly rejected such a view). But gender is a complicated thing with many aspects, and I think that putting the performative aspect on the radar was not without merit, even if a reductively performative view would take things too far and obscure other important dimensions.

I can understand why it might have resonated with you and I don't have a problem with that. I think my issue is partly that Butler et al do a very good impression of the politician who gets sent for a "listening tour" amongst those affected by their policies. After some vague affirmations and poses for the cameras they go back and start saying and doing exactly the same thing as before.

A few paragraphs in an introductory chapter saying how they recognise the struggles of people with dysphoria might sound nice but it rings hollow if the rest of the text then reads as if they think gender is purely performative. A few words about how the ideal would be a libertarian socialist healthcare model where people get everything based purely on identity isn't an engagement with a real world of tight healthcare budgets or scepticism about socialised medicine, where the words operate solely as weapons for people who want to reduce provision. It comes across as going through the motions of reflexivity without really engaging in it.

Well, yeah, it may be logical for tensions within a very diverse coalition to occur, but I wouldn't like to dispense with that coalition either.

My problem isn't with the theory existing as merely one of a diversity of ideas to be debated, but that gender abolitionism has become something of an academic orthodoxy, and that it's bring pushed forwards to be a community one as well.

If you want to talk about gender in academic terms from within sociology you must use the language of queer theory or you're automatically shut out of the conversation as some kind of methodological dinosaur.

So the "coalition" is not really a coming together of diverse opinions so much as it is one faction demanding the right to speak their politics, then recoiling in outrage about how anyone who disagrees is "truscum", how opponents are "bringing politics in" and "sowing division" etc etc. If only one argument is permitted in circulation it's more of an ideological hostage situation than a coalition.

[Hediacrana]

I think my issue is partly that Butler et al do a very good impression of the politician who gets sent for a "listening tour" amongst those affected by their policies. After some vague affirmations and poses for the cameras they go back and start saying and doing exactly the same thing as before.

A few paragraphs in an introductory chapter saying how they recognise the struggles of people with dysphoria might sound nice but it rings hollow if the rest of the text then reads as if they think gender is purely performative. A few words about how the ideal would be a libertarian socialist healthcare model where people get everything based purely on identity isn't an engagement with a real world of tight healthcare budgets or scepticism about socialised medicine, where the words operate solely as weapons for people who want to reduce provision. It comes across as going through the motions of reflexivity without really engaging in it.

I probably have not spent as much time in the world of queer theory academia as you have (while I do work in academia, it's in a different field), but if that's what they do, I cannot but agree with you that that's bad.

My problem isn't with the theory existing as merely one of a diversity of ideas to be debated, but that gender abolitionism has become something of an academic orthodoxy, and that it's bring pushed forwards to be a community one as well.

If you want to talk about gender in academic terms from within sociology you must use the language of queer theory or you're automatically shut out of the conversation as some kind of methodological dinosaur.

So the "coalition" is not really a coming together of diverse opinions so much as it is one faction demanding the right to speak their politics, then recoiling in outrage about how anyone who disagrees is "truscum", how opponents are "bringing politics in" and "sowing division" etc etc. If only one argument is permitted in circulation it's more of an ideological hostage situation than a coalition.

See above; again, if that's how it is in the world of queer theory academia, I have to agree with you that that isn't good. With the "coalition" I referred more broadly to LGBTQ+ activist communities, which I personally experienced to be a bit more diverse in terms of views than what you describe here. Then again, we live in different countries, and furthermore, my frame of reference when it comes to queer activism is not so much the world of academic queer theory as it is the world of queer churchy people.

----

On a different note:

The South Dakota House of Representatives Tuesday approved a bill that would ban any mention of transgender identity in kindergarten through seventh grade.

House Bill 1108, which now goes to the Republican-controlled Senate, where it is likely to pass, mandates that “no instruction in gender dysphoria may be provided to any student in kindergarten through grade seven in any public school in the state,” ThinkProgress reports. It passed by a vote of 39-30 in the House; if it passes the Senate, Gov. Kristi Noem, a Republican, will probably sign it.

While some states still have laws that prohibit the mention of homosexuality in public schools — known colloquially as “no promo homo” laws — “this is the first ‘no promo trans’ bill to actually have traction in the country,” according to the site.

(source) For shame, South Dakota.

[Ruskland-Preuben]

Unpopular opinion: I will only accept trans people once technology has advanced to the point that MtF can bear children and FtM can produce sperm.
Seeing the trend of tech, not long.

[The National Salvation Front for Russia]

Unpopular opinion: I will only accept trans people once technology has advanced to the point that MtF can bear children and FtM can produce sperm.
Seeing the trend of tech, not long.

That seems to be an arbitrary excuse not to accept trans people.

How does technology change anything about their identity?

[Ruskland-Preuben]

Unpopular opinion: I will only accept trans people once technology has advanced to the point that MtF can bear children and FtM can produce sperm.
Seeing the trend of tech, not long.

That seems to be an arbitrary excuse not to accept trans people.
How does technology change anything about their identity?

Well, can you provide manpower for the nation to draw on? See, imo the moment they can bear children is the moment their persecution starts to wane, as they’ll be just like male and female. Again, just my opinion, I am sorry if I offended you or something.

[The National Salvation Front for Russia]

Well, can you provide manpower for the nation to draw on? See, imo the moment they can bear children is the moment their persecution starts to wane, as they’ll be just like male and female. Again, just my opinion, I am sorry if I offended you or something.

I'm not offended, I don't really accept trans people myself, I just find it weird to have a conditional on recognizing them.

Usually, you do or you don't.

[Ruskland-Preuben]

Well, can you provide manpower for the nation to draw on? See, imo the moment they can bear children is the moment their persecution starts to wane, as they’ll be just like male and female. Again, just my opinion, I am sorry if I offended you or something.

I'm not offended, I don't really accept trans people myself, I just find it weird to have a conditional on recognizing them.

Usually, you do or you don't.

Understandable.
I don’t accept them, but I keep my opinions to myself...
Except on the internet of course.

[Grenartia]

Nobody ever uses "tucute" in a self-referential manner.

Not much any more, no, but during 2015 and 2016 they definitely did.

Not even then. I was there.

"Truscum" is rarely used in a self-referential manner outside of that brief era as well.

I'll grant you that its equally non-self-referential.

That seems to be an arbitrary excuse not to accept trans people.
How does technology change anything about their identity?

Well, can you provide manpower for the nation to draw on? See, imo the moment they can bear children is the moment their persecution starts to wane, as they’ll be just like male and female. Again, just my opinion, I am sorry if I offended you or something.

Why is someone's value as a person derived from their ability to serve the needs of the state?