Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Nioya]

It's a term intended to mock the people who say that dysphoria is not 100% necessary to be transgender.

Ah. Well, strictly speaking, that's correct. Not sure why someone would transition if they don't have dysphoria, though. Just needlessly difficult.

Exactly

Of course, my position is that trans people deserve acceptance because of their dysphoria. But if you wear baggy jeans and grow your hair out, you’re not trans and you shouldn’t be entitled to have your employer call your zeeself and sue them if they don’t.

[Ifreann]

Ah. Well, strictly speaking, that's correct. Not sure why someone would transition if they don't have dysphoria, though. Just needlessly difficult.

Exactly

Of course, my position is that trans people deserve acceptance because of their dysphoria. But if you wear baggy jeans and grow your hair out, you’re not trans and you shouldn’t be entitled to have your employer call your zeeself and sue them if they don’t.

Why should people need to suffer dysphoria to be accepted by society?

[Arcturus Novus]

Ah. Well, strictly speaking, that's correct. Not sure why someone would transition if they don't have dysphoria, though. Just needlessly difficult.

Exactly

Of course, my position is that trans people deserve acceptance because of their dysphoria. But if you wear baggy jeans and grow your hair out, you’re not trans and you shouldn’t be entitled to have your employer call your zeeself and sue them if they don’t.

Here's a hot concept, though: people are entitled to their identities so long as they aren't directly harming anyone by being themselves.

[Auzkhia]

Are there any good tucute arguments?

Are there any good truscum arguments?

Ah. Well, strictly speaking, that's correct. Not sure why someone would transition if they don't have dysphoria, though. Just needlessly difficult.

Exactly

Of course, my position is that trans people deserve acceptance because of their dysphoria. But if you wear baggy jeans and grow your hair out, you’re not trans and you shouldn’t be entitled to have your employer call your zeeself and sue them if they don’t.

Who are you to say who is and who isn't trans? All pronouns are valid, and there is no correct way to be a gender.

How do you define dysphoria if you believe it's required to be considered trans? And if someone feels that their transition has cured their dysphoria, are they now cis?

Btw, gender dysphoria can wildly differ, it's a bug not a feature, and gender euphoria is a good enough reason to transition, which can be different between people.

Exactly

Of course, my position is that trans people deserve acceptance because of their dysphoria. But if you wear baggy jeans and grow your hair out, you’re not trans and you shouldn’t be entitled to have your employer call your zeeself and sue them if they don’t.

Why should people need to suffer dysphoria to be accepted by society?

^This

More eloquent than my response for sure.

[Hediacrana]

Here's a hot concept, though: people are entitled to their identities so long as they aren't directly harming anyone by being themselves.

Absolutely.

And I think we even may go beyond that a little. Not only do we trans people not harm society as a whole, I think the point can be argued that in our advocacy for our own, we also contribute to a better society for all, including cis people.

Arguably a transphobic society is more likely to tell boys that they shouldn't cry and that they can't be pretty; to tell girls that they can't be brave or good leaders; to tell all children they can't be in love with someone of the same sex, and to tell all people that they can't be close friends and just friends with people of the opposite sex. Grenartia put it quite well, I think, in a post not too long ago: transphobia, sexism and homophobia all reinforce each other.

There is not really a term for the fear or hatred of gender-noncomformity as such that I'm aware of, but I think that's also a part of that self-reinforcing structure. That is to say, I think that cishet people are also likely to be more free to not conform to narrow gender roles in a society where transphobia, sexism and homophobia are done away with.

[Dumb Ideologies]

There's a categorical difference and differences of experience between people who transition due to a pressing and extended struggle of bodily discomfort and those who do so for purely lifestyle reasons. There's a difference again between people who wish to transition from one of the binary identities to another and those who wish to manufacture a third category.

Honestly this "truscum" and "transtrenders" vocab is a natural consequence of both society and "the movement" trying to lump together all "gender variant" people into one category, which is bound to be contentious because different experiences breed different priorities and worldviews.

[Proctopeo]

What's a tucute? Slightly afraid to google in case it's super transphobic or porn-related.

It's a term intended to mock the people who say that dysphoria is not 100% necessary to be transgender.

IIRC it originated from a trans Tumblr user, one of the stereotypical ones (she's also a terrible person fyi). That's also where "truscum" comes from.
You got them pretty backwards; "tucute" is a self-congratulatory term for those who say it's in no way a requirement, while "truscum" is a term intended to mock the people who say that it is. They're literally just corruptions of "too cute" and "true scum".

[Hediacrana]

There's a categorical difference and differences of experience between people who transition due to a pressing and extended struggle of bodily discomfort and those who do so for purely lifestyle reasons. There's a difference again between people who wish to transition from one of the binary identities to another and those who wish to manufacture a third category.

Honestly this "truscum" and "transtrenders" vocab is a natural consequence of both society and "the movement" trying to lump together all "gender variant" people into one category, which is bound to be contentious because different experiences breed different priorities and worldviews.

I'm not sure you're responding to my post or to what came before, but I did not mean to say that all experiences are the same. I'd defend the claim that things are interlinked, that they share similarities, but not that they are identical.

And if the "the movement" thing in your post meant to refer to what I was just saying, it honestly feels a little like a bit of a strawman rebuttal, subsuming what I just said to a more generalizing argument that I did not make.

[Nioya]

Exactly

Of course, my position is that trans people deserve acceptance because of their dysphoria. But if you wear baggy jeans and grow your hair out, you’re not trans and you shouldn’t be entitled to have your employer call your zeeself and sue them if they don’t.

Why should people need to suffer dysphoria to be accepted by society?

Why should society accept you? Why should society, hundreds of millions of people, thousands of institutions private and public, have to accept one little individual person?

[Nioya]

Lol churn!

But seriously, I don’t have any problem with trans people doing their thing. But I’m a libertarian about this. Meaning people can think how they want and feel how they want, and if they think trans people are gross disgusting degenerates, as long as they post on /pol/ and don’t harass trans people in public, they have that right. By extension, you don’t have to employ trans people if you don’t want to or give them any extra accommodation. Now, if you want to push back against that, dysphoria is a good reason to provide such accommodation, given that it is a disability. But this doesn’t apply to enbies and their weird lifestyle.

But my dislike of enbies doesn’t end there. I just can’t respect someone who goes on non-binary.org and says they’re Frostgender, a gender that is cold and snowy.

[United Muscovite Nations]

To me, it sounds like it might possibly be a matter of habit, rather than one of legitimacy per se. You're accustomed to thinking of yourself in certain terms that since have turned out not to be a good fit, but old habits tend to stick around for a bit. A bit like, though I speak English fluently, I still mistakenly use sentence constructions belonging to my native language now and then.

I think you nailed it.

I think I'm gonna try to meet with my campus health clinic and get on hormones in the next couple months. I know my parents' insurance won't be an option, so I'll need to save up for blood tests and the first few months' doses, but I'm tired of my transition being in perpetual standstill. I want to take steps to become me.

Good luck with that, frien.

Hopefully soon I'll be able to do the same.

Weird gender thought: I like being called a girl but don't like being called a woman. I sometimes am ok with boy, but absolutely being called a man.

I'm definitely an enby, though.

Weird, but valid.

We should consult the Catholic Church and St Peter

Jesus is trans. Prove me wrong.

Oh shit I jinxed it.

I was just about to warn you, and then I scrolled down and saw it.

So just for sake of contingency theorisation, would anyone happen to know about informed consent as applied to minors? I’ve got a psychiatrist appointment coming up, but I wanna know whether I have particular means to bypass parental approval if necessary.

If you trust your psych to maintain doctor-patient confidentiality, you could ask them.

To my knowledge, there is no law or regulation in the United States allowing minors to bypass their legal guardians in important medical decisions unless they are emancipated.

I believe the Mature Minor doctrine applies here.

Other than "the concept of 'tucutes' is bullshit and its proponents are gatekeepers at best and transphobic at worst"?

I mean, where's the lie?

Ah. Well, strictly speaking, that's correct. Not sure why someone would transition if they don't have dysphoria, though. Just needlessly difficult.

Not necessarily.

It is entirely possible and valid for a transgirl to be ok with having a flat chest and her original genitals. If she's fine with her body's fat distribution, bone structure, hair, etc., then why does she need to spend a whole bunch of money on HRT and SRS just to be seen as a valid girl in the eyes of society and the government?

That attitude also runs really quickly into gender policing territory.

Don't respond to provocation with more provocation.

[Khasinkonia]

I think one, if not THE, key concept in avoiding being discriminatory is empathy. Take me for example:
I honeslty don’t understand how nonbinary folks do it. Their sort of gender dysphoria is a mystery to me. How could someone be a gender outside of male and female when all my life I’ve only been exposed to those two? How could someone’s gender change fluidly? I could use these questions that seemingly only have simple answers of “They just do” as reasoning for invalidating nonbinary folks, certainly. But then I remind myself that cis people ask themselves “How could someone’s gender be different from their assigned one at birth—and what does asab even mean?” and could use that in the same way.

It’s empathy, and understanding that one might not always be able to even grasp someone else’s experience on a fundamental level that begets acceptance. So does someone need dysphoria to be valid as a trans person? Well, if someone’s motivated enough to transition, chances are they’re valid, far as I’m concerned.

[Kingdom Of Hungaria]

I think one, if not THE, key concept in avoiding being discriminatory is empathy. Take me for example:
I honeslty don’t understand how nonbinary folks do it. Their sort of gender dysphoria is a mystery to me. How could someone be a gender outside of male and female when all my life I’ve only been exposed to those two? How could someone’s gender change fluidly? I could use these questions that seemingly only have simple answers of “They just do” as reasoning for invalidating nonbinary folks, certainly. But then I remind myself that cis people ask themselves “How could someone’s gender be different from their assigned one at birth—and what does asab even mean?” and could use that in the same way.

It’s empathy, and understanding that one might not always be able to even grasp someone else’s experience on a fundamental level that begets acceptance. So does someone need dysphoria to be valid as a trans person? Well, if someone’s motivated enough to transition, chances are they’re valid, far as I’m concerned.

Inefficient.

[Twilight Imperium]

Inefficient.

It's extremely efficient. Instead of devoting time and energy convincing people that they're wrong about their own selves, you can use it.. anywhere else. Maybe you could take up artisanal soapcrafts.

[Ifreann]

Why should people need to suffer dysphoria to be accepted by society?

Why should society accept you? Why should society, hundreds of millions of people, thousands of institutions private and public, have to accept one little individual person?

You're the one who said that people suffering dysphoria deserve acceptance. You tell me why it should be so.

[Berdenvia]

Honestly if someone is LGBTQABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQURTUVWXYZ or whatever, then let them be whatever letter of the alphabet they choose to be. Everybody has the right to their own body, not the government.

[Khasinkonia]

I think one, if not THE, key concept in avoiding being discriminatory is empathy. Take me for example:
I honeslty don’t understand how nonbinary folks do it. Their sort of gender dysphoria is a mystery to me. How could someone be a gender outside of male and female when all my life I’ve only been exposed to those two? How could someone’s gender change fluidly? I could use these questions that seemingly only have simple answers of “They just do” as reasoning for invalidating nonbinary folks, certainly. But then I remind myself that cis people ask themselves “How could someone’s gender be different from their assigned one at birth—and what does asab even mean?” and could use that in the same way.

It’s empathy, and understanding that one might not always be able to even grasp someone else’s experience on a fundamental level that begets acceptance. So does someone need dysphoria to be valid as a trans person? Well, if someone’s motivated enough to transition, chances are they’re valid, far as I’m concerned.

Inefficient.

It is inefficient to debate people over things which will not change. It is more efficient to accept people for things that do no harm which will not change, as futile debate is inefficient. Further, happiness increases productivity. I rest my case.

[Hanafuridake]

One serious problem with supporting the notion “dysphoria is necessary to be trans” is that it ironically can be harmful to transgender people who have dysphoria but don't realize that they're suffering from it because narratives and media push extreme examples, such as a transgender child wanting to commit castration. Dysphoria can range from mild to extreme, but someone's identity shouldn't be devalued based on how little they suffer from psychological distress. That's pointlessly masochistic.

[The Mercurians of Hermes]

Hey, I'm not trans/dysphoric, (I'm Bi/pan) but I have a friend who is assigned at birth, female, but is a transboy. He has very homophobic/transphobic parents, and IDK what to do to help. Thanks, The Mercurians.

[The New California Republic]

Hey, I'm not trans/dysphoric, (I'm Bi/pan) but I have a friend who is assigned at birth, female, but is a transboy. He has very homophobic/transphobic parents, and IDK what to do to help. Thanks, The Mercurians.

Age?

[Kingdom Of Hungaria]

Inefficient.

It is inefficient to debate people over things which will not change. It is more efficient to accept people for things that do no harm which will not change, as futile debate is inefficient. Further, happiness increases productivity. I rest my case.

They can helped to fix their ailment, accepting these “genders” is just further driving a wedge between people as everyone strives to stand out, to me there are only 2 genders male and female.

[Neutraligon]

It is inefficient to debate people over things which will not change. It is more efficient to accept people for things that do no harm which will not change, as futile debate is inefficient. Further, happiness increases productivity. I rest my case.

They can helped to fix their ailment, accepting these “genders” is just further driving a wedge between people as everyone strives to stand out, to me there are only 2 genders male and female.

Funny thing, the thing that ha been shown to "fix" the ailment is transition and acceptance by peers and family.

[The Mercurians of Hermes]

Hey, I'm not trans/dysphoric, (I'm Bi/pan) but I have a friend who is assigned at birth, female, but is a transboy. He has very homophobic/transphobic parents, and IDK what to do to help. Thanks, The Mercurians.

Age?

12-13 ish

[Kingdom Of Hungaria]

They can helped to fix their ailment, accepting these “genders” is just further driving a wedge between people as everyone strives to stand out, to me there are only 2 genders male and female.

Funny thing, the thing that ha been shown to "fix" the ailment is transition and acceptance by peers and family.

Any kind of mental disorder can be fixed. You just need to put aside morality, besides a lobotomy can cure them just as good.

[The Mercurians of Hermes]

Funny thing, the thing that ha been shown to "fix" the ailment is transition and acceptance by peers and family.

Any kind of mental disorder can be fixed. You just need to put aside morality, besides a lobotomy can cure them just as good.

Stop trying to get hot takes, what's wrong with accepting people. Does it hurt you? There are two BIOLOGICAL sexes. gender=/=sex. being in between, nonbinary, isn't biological, like a sex, it's mental, like a gender.