Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Dumb Ideologies]

LGBT social conservatives aren't even consistent, they either don't care about having a solid ideology or just don't care about the LGBTQ community. No conservatives as long the sex-gender system and heteronormativity stand in some form in society.

Slightly pissed-off effortpost coming up as the constant drip-drip Chinese water torture of unchallenged snideposts is really starting to get on my tits to the point that I'm only really checking in here nowadays to challenge it.

LGBT social conservatives can be plenty consistent. There are many flavours of conservatism. Fundamentally, conservatism is about a presumption towards preserving what is good in institutions and culture, a desire to change society only when necessary, rather than for change's sake, and for that change to be oriented towards restoring the good functioning of that society rather than simply to enable man's worst hedonistic desires.

Being a "small c" conservative does not require support for every action of particular parties or individuals who claim the label. It does not even require voting for them. This is because people disagree on what is functional (and thus in need of preserving) and what is dysfunctional (and thus in need of restoration or reluctant novelty) in society. Personally speaking, I view international capitalism as highly destructive to local difference, morality, and stable social relations. Given the economic and social leanings of the contemporary political parties around me, my conservative inclinations mean that I tend to - with some reservations - support left-wing parties. Conservatism is an orientation towards the world, not a prescriptive political program.

LGBT people can be integrated into healthy and stable ways of living through the wider availability of marriage, and through the wider substitution of the modernistic obsession with free speech and enabling extreme individual opinion with a more balanced attitude of respect for others and not "rocking the boat". I also support a socialized and affordable system of healthcare that enables treatment for trans people within the proper medical pathways. But to be bluntly honest, no I do not support "the LGBT community" and "LGBT culture" because these are not authentic representations of said community but impositions that small groups are trying to impose on the rest of us.

I do not support the hyperindividualism, "look at me" Pride narcissism, or the wider set of political affiliations (pro-kink, pro-polyamory, pro-immigration, uncritical support for feminists etc etc) that those leading the movement call for through campaigns in which they invoke the name of the "community". It is possible to care about and support a form of "advancement" for LGBT people in your society without subscribing to the political program that the Priders and """liberationists""" prescribe.

Now, can this all be a difficult route to navigate in society given the leanings of many other self-identified conservatives? Sure. But if you are an LGBT conservative, chucking your deeply-held principles in the bin and pretending to be a liberal would hardly be a path to consistency. I would know, having tried it

As (presumably) an intersectionalist you would not demand that any other group existing on an overlap give up part of their identity in order to fit in better with a movement that claims a monopoly on their liberation. The "you must be liberal" faction of queers makes an exclusive and coercive identity demand which is an attempt to establish internal hegemony.

There is no "natural" worldview for LGBT people because LGBT is not a ideology and LGBT people are just people who happen to be LGBT. Insulting the intelligence of queer people who don't agree with you rather than trying to build bridges with them is not protecting a "community", it's just knocking down one section of LGBT people in service of the exclusive and false identity claims of another group of LGBT people.

Stop (clap) pretending (clap) to (clap) love (clap) the (clap) community (clap) while (clap) insulting (clap) other (clap) trans (clap) people.

*drops mic, stamps on it repeatedly*

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Precisely this.



I'm on basically the same page as you, but I'd like to point out that there's an iron triangle of sorts between heteronormativity, cisnormativity, and sexism. They're mutually-reinforcing. You can't take away one without fundamentally weakening the other two. And virtually all of conservatism has that iron triangle as a foundation. Its like a house of cards built on a three legged stool. Take out one of the legs, and the whole thing falls apart.

LGBT social conservatives aren't even consistent, they either don't care about having a solid ideology or just don't care about the LGBTQ community. No conservatives as long the sex-gender system and heteronormativity stand in some form in society.

I love how it was so clearly a last-minute attempt at astroturfing. Anyone with half a brain cell could tell some campaign intern hastily scribbled it down as some self-important staffer was patting his own back for coming up with the idea, and rushed it to Trump's incredibly tiny hands.

And it was baiting us queer folk in his anti-immigration, xenophobic tripe about muslims.

The party of the moral majority was never the friend of the LGBTQ community.

Rather bold of you to assume that LGBT people lack consistency or are self-hating.

Also, as much as Trump most likely remains indifferent towards the betterment of the lives of LGBT folk by grant mere token concessions, it is infinitely better than Muslims (even Western Muslims are very much conservative in relation to the rest of the population) who would have no second thoughts about oppressing and even murdering them.

[Auzkhia]

LGBT social conservatives aren't even consistent, they either don't care about having a solid ideology or just don't care about the LGBTQ community. No conservatives as long the sex-gender system and heteronormativity stand in some form in society.

And it was baiting us queer folk in his anti-immigration, xenophobic tripe about muslims.

The party of the moral majority was never the friend of the LGBTQ community.

Rather bold of you to assume that LGBT people lack consistency or are self-hating.

Also, as much as Trump most likely remains indifferent towards the betterment of the lives of LGBT folk by grant mere token concessions, it is infinitely better than Muslims (even Western Muslims are very much conservative in relation to the rest of the population) who would have no second thoughts about oppressing and even murdering them.

As conservatives, what are they exactly conserving? By its definition political conservatism seeks to conserve the status quo.
Or maybe, they just feel that their struggle is over and that "made it" and thus feel and preserve that status quo.

Maybe that's it? I'd still be radical in other ways, but as far as gender and sexuality go, I feel no need to preserve the status quo.

That's really it, I just cannot fathom why, unless I somehow thought I made it.

Again, that's my whole point on the baiting, I, being the godless atheist, oppose all religious fundamentalism, in the west, especially in the US, it was Christianity doing the oppressing. It's make sure the zealots don't get the power, and xenophobia and racialization helps nobody.

[Auzkhia]

Speaking of debates, one debate I need to resolve is to stop getting my shit brain to call me a man.

It's an odd dysphoric mood, and I realized that I sometimes accidentally misgender myself, it's like I have to unlearn all those years of masculine brainwashing. I know I am a trans non-binary person, but I must have internalized doubt sown by transphobia and people doubting the "legitimacy" of my gender.

Maybe I have a point, or maybe I'm totally mad? I feel like I'm on to something here.

[Hediacrana]

Speaking of debates, one debate I need to resolve is to stop getting my shit brain to call me a man.

It's an odd dysphoric mood, and I realized that I sometimes accidentally misgender myself, it's like I have to unlearn all those years of masculine brainwashing. I know I am a trans non-binary person, but I must have internalized doubt sown by transphobia and people doubting the "legitimacy" of my gender.

Maybe I have a point, or maybe I'm totally mad? I feel like I'm on to something here.

To me, it sounds like it might possibly be a matter of habit, rather than one of legitimacy per se. You're accustomed to thinking of yourself in certain terms that since have turned out not to be a good fit, but old habits tend to stick around for a bit. A bit like, though I speak English fluently, I still mistakenly use sentence constructions belonging to my native language now and then.

[Arcturus Novus]

I think I'm gonna try to meet with my campus health clinic and get on hormones in the next couple months. I know my parents' insurance won't be an option, so I'll need to save up for blood tests and the first few months' doses, but I'm tired of my transition being in perpetual standstill. I want to take steps to become me.

[Auzkhia]

Weird gender thought: I like being called a girl but don't like being called a woman. I sometimes am ok with boy, but absolutely being called a man.

I'm definitely an enby, though.

[Hediacrana]

I think I'm gonna try to meet with my campus health clinic and get on hormones in the next couple months. I know my parents' insurance won't be an option, so I'll need to save up for blood tests and the first few months' doses, but I'm tired of my transition being in perpetual standstill. I want to take steps to become me.

That's a great step; best of luck!

[The New California Republic]

For some reason this thread is no longer appearing in my "view your posts" section. It occasionally glitches out.

On another note, just so this isn't solely a "tag" post that the Mods frown upon, I have noticed we haven't had any drive-by posters for a while, who drop a snide comment against trans people and then leave.

[Auzkhia]

I think I'm gonna try to meet with my campus health clinic and get on hormones in the next couple months. I know my parents' insurance won't be an option, so I'll need to save up for blood tests and the first few months' doses, but I'm tired of my transition being in perpetual standstill. I want to take steps to become me.

Best of luck.

I'm just on a waiting list for one, maybe I'll hear from them in March, otherwise I could have made in appoint with an endocrinologist in May.

There really isn't any transitioning resources at my campus health center.

[The Pan-Asian National Coalition]

We should consult the Catholic Church and St Peter

[The New California Republic]

We should consult the Catholic Church and St Peter

Oh shit I jinxed it.

[Dumb Ideologies]

We should consult the Catholic Church and St Peter

That would be an ecumenical matter.

[Hediacrana]

We should consult the Catholic Church and St Peter

That would be an ecumenical matter.

Indeed. And in that glorious spirit of ecumenical understanding, allow me to share once more the wise words by a Lutheran, non-binary pastor (I've already quoted them earlier in this thread).

In the beginning, God created day and night. But have you ever seen a sunset!?!? Well trans and non-binary people are kind of like that. Gorgeous. Full of a hundred shades of color you can't see in plain daylight or during the night.

In the beginning God created land and sea. But have you ever seen a beach?!?! Well trans and non-binary people are kind of like that. Beautiful. A balanced oasis that's not quite like the ocean, nor quite like the land.

In the beginning God created birds of the air and fish of the sea. But have you ever seen a flying fish, or a duck or a puffin that swims and flies, spending lots of time in the water and on the land!?!? Well trans and non-binary people are kind of like that. Full of life. A creative combination of characteristics that blows people's minds.

In the beginning God also created male and female, in God's own image, God created them. So in the same way that God created realities in between, outside of, and beyond night and day, land and sea, or fish and birds, so God also created people with genders beyond male and female. Trans and non-binary and agender and intersex, God created us. All different sorts of people for all different sorts of relationships. Created from love to love and be loved. In God's image we live.

God is still creating you. You are no less beautiful and wild than a sunset or a beach or a puffin. You are loved. You have a place here.

[Khasinkonia]

So just for sake of contingency theorisation, would anyone happen to know about informed consent as applied to minors? I’ve got a psychiatrist appointment coming up, but I wanna know whether I have particular means to bypass parental approval if necessary.

[Cekoviu]

So just for sake of contingency theorisation, would anyone happen to know about informed consent as applied to minors? I’ve got a psychiatrist appointment coming up, but I wanna know whether I have particular means to bypass parental approval if necessary.

To my knowledge, there is no law or regulation in the United States allowing minors to bypass their legal guardians in important medical decisions unless they are emancipated.

[Khasinkonia]

So just for sake of contingency theorisation, would anyone happen to know about informed consent as applied to minors? I’ve got a psychiatrist appointment coming up, but I wanna know whether I have particular means to bypass parental approval if necessary.

To my knowledge, there is no law or regulation in the United States allowing minors to bypass their legal guardians in important medical decisions unless they are emancipated.

Figures, although I think finding a way to strip my mother of medical power of attorney would suffice.

[Nioya]

Are there any good tucute arguments?

[Arcturus Novus]

Are there any good tucute arguments?

Other than "the concept of 'tucutes' is bullshit and its proponents are gatekeepers at best and transphobic at worst"?

[Cekoviu]

Are there any good tucute arguments?

What's a tucute? Slightly afraid to google in case it's super transphobic or porn-related.

[Vassenor]

Are there any good tucute arguments?

What's a tucute? Slightly afraid to google in case it's super transphobic or porn-related.

It's a term intended to mock the people who say that dysphoria is not 100% necessary to be transgender.

[Cekoviu]

What's a tucute? Slightly afraid to google in case it's super transphobic or porn-related.

It's a term intended to mock the people who say that dysphoria is not 100% necessary to be transgender.

Ah. Well, strictly speaking, that's correct. Not sure why someone would transition if they don't have dysphoria, though. Just needlessly difficult.

[Grenartia]

Speaking of debates, one debate I need to resolve is to stop getting my shit brain to call me a man.

It's an odd dysphoric mood, and I realized that I sometimes accidentally misgender myself, it's like I have to unlearn all those years of masculine brainwashing. I know I am a trans non-binary person, but I must have internalized doubt sown by transphobia and people doubting the "legitimacy" of my gender.

Maybe I have a point, or maybe I'm totally mad? I feel like I'm on to something here.

To me, it sounds like it might possibly be a matter of habit, rather than one of legitimacy per se. You're accustomed to thinking of yourself in certain terms that since have turned out not to be a good fit, but old habits tend to stick around for a bit. A bit like, though I speak English fluently, I still mistakenly use sentence constructions belonging to my native language now and then.

I think you nailed it.

I think I'm gonna try to meet with my campus health clinic and get on hormones in the next couple months. I know my parents' insurance won't be an option, so I'll need to save up for blood tests and the first few months' doses, but I'm tired of my transition being in perpetual standstill. I want to take steps to become me.

Good luck with that, frien.

Hopefully soon I'll be able to do the same.

Weird gender thought: I like being called a girl but don't like being called a woman. I sometimes am ok with boy, but absolutely being called a man.

I'm definitely an enby, though.

Weird, but valid.

We should consult the Catholic Church and St Peter

Jesus is trans. Prove me wrong.

We should consult the Catholic Church and St Peter

Oh shit I jinxed it.

I was just about to warn you, and then I scrolled down and saw it.

So just for sake of contingency theorisation, would anyone happen to know about informed consent as applied to minors? I’ve got a psychiatrist appointment coming up, but I wanna know whether I have particular means to bypass parental approval if necessary.

If you trust your psych to maintain doctor-patient confidentiality, you could ask them.

So just for sake of contingency theorisation, would anyone happen to know about informed consent as applied to minors? I’ve got a psychiatrist appointment coming up, but I wanna know whether I have particular means to bypass parental approval if necessary.

To my knowledge, there is no law or regulation in the United States allowing minors to bypass their legal guardians in important medical decisions unless they are emancipated.

I believe the Mature Minor doctrine applies here.

Are there any good tucute arguments?

Other than "the concept of 'tucutes' is bullshit and its proponents are gatekeepers at best and transphobic at worst"?

I mean, where's the lie?

It's a term intended to mock the people who say that dysphoria is not 100% necessary to be transgender.

Ah. Well, strictly speaking, that's correct. Not sure why someone would transition if they don't have dysphoria, though. Just needlessly difficult.

Not necessarily.

It is entirely possible and valid for a transgirl to be ok with having a flat chest and her original genitals. If she's fine with her body's fat distribution, bone structure, hair, etc., then why does she need to spend a whole bunch of money on HRT and SRS just to be seen as a valid girl in the eyes of society and the government?

That attitude also runs really quickly into gender policing territory.

[Cekoviu]

Ah. Well, strictly speaking, that's correct. Not sure why someone would transition if they don't have dysphoria, though. Just needlessly difficult.

Not necessarily.

It is entirely possible and valid for a transgirl to be ok with having a flat chest and her original genitals. If she's fine with her body's fat distribution, bone structure, hair, etc., then why does she need to spend a whole bunch of money on HRT and SRS just to be seen as a valid girl in the eyes of society and the government?

That attitude also runs really quickly into gender policing territory.

Doesn't necessarily have to be body dysphoria - most trans people will at least have some dysphoria (our hypothetical trans woman would probably be socially dysphoric even if she doesn't mind her body). And anyway, I said you wouldn't need to transition medically if you didn't have body dysphoria.

But there are some cases where you would be perfectly fine living as one gender, but the other is somewhat more affirming, so you transition. I don't intend to demean non-dysphoric trans people by saying most were initially dysphoric.

[The Blaatschapen]

We should consult the Catholic Church and St Peter

I suggest that the authors of the Nashville statement go first.

Oh, they are protestant? Well, not my problem