Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Tarsonis]

I’m trying to keep most of my personal views on gender as a concept out of it because my personal views are largely religious based. Much as I believe them, “cause God said so” doesn’t really pack the punch I’d like in a debate.

I will say I usually put all of my personal views into an argument, of course trying to indicate them as such, as I don’t believe it’s commonly possible to debate completely removed from personal beliefs.

Well it helps that I’m also a theology teacher. Example of what I mean: Had to explain to a student whose not particularly religious why Pornography and Masturbation is wrong. Now I could appeal to the moral and theological argument, but they’re not particularly religious so I might as well be treating a cold with chemo. Not really gonna get you anywhere. So instead, I focused on the scientific aspect of it and the social aspect of it, and it was much more effective.

As it pertains to this environment, I personally see male and female gender roles as different but complementary. I value traditional gender roles but acknowledge there’s room for shift in both aspects. While I recognize the difference in concept between sex and gender I do not agree they are not equivalent or deterministic. To me a mtf is still a man, ftm is stil a woman, regardless of self expressed gender or transitional treatment. In my opinion GD is a disorder, and proper treatment is to correct said disorder not indulge in the disorder. Correct treatment shoud be aimed toward assisting those with GD to conform to their biological sex. I support Herero/cis normativity.


These are of course my opinions which will get me absolutely no where using them as a platform for debate. So I only focus on things that will actually have a productive debate like the use of puberty blockers in GD minors.

[Mercuriuseudoro]

God did make me this way. But God also works in mysterious ways, not to mention the distinct possibility that sin in the world may as well have some hand in it. I do not claim to know the divine. As far as I know, if God made me this way, then God made me trans. And maybe it’s some test, could be. But I couldn’t imagine for a second that I could even come close to fathoming the will of something that created the entire universe, if we’re going to be theological like that.

But to your point about ‘what could I do transitioned that I can’t as a man’, I’ll bite. The feeling of gender dysphoria, as far as I’m concerned, is almost impossible to put into words. It’s a constant pain of wrongness when I’m doing what you say is right, but that’s not the whole of it. It’s pain, but it’s a special kind of pain that I don’t know if I even have words at my disposal to describe. And I’m sorry I can’t. It’s tough to say, but the truth is that in some way, I simply can’t be whole as a man. Pragmatically, there is nothing on the planet Earth that I could do as a woman that I couldn’t as a man, save for things that are explicitly gender segregated, but this all doesn’t matter as much to me. It’s not that I can do more; it’s that I can live. I can be whole. You seem to speak as if you’ve on some levels transcended gender, or perhaps you sense of duty renders you on a different thought process behind life than I have. I can’t really put how this feels into words, but I can say this. Your truth about yourself is not truth about me. My truth is my truth. I know it’s cheesy and a bit odd, but that’s all I can think to describe it. I don’t really think I can get any closer to rationalizing gender dysphoria. Believe me, I’ve tried for years now to do it, and ultimately, I just can’t. I spent years trying to find purpose, and doing what I was supposed to, but not a lick of it left me fulfilled when I went off to bed. Until someone can find for me a proven cause, I’m inclined to believe that it’s one of the unsolved mysteries of the psyche.

As far as utilitarianism goes, I sometimes lean utilitarian as well. But frankly, when I boils down to it, I’d rather try to do what makes me happy than do what makes me most useful. I’ve got one life. I’m gonna make it count for me. I honestly would rather be worth nothing to the rest of the world, and everything to myself, than the other way around.

FIrstly, in terms of "design and divine intent" - God made you male. People made xenoestrogens, in the form of plastics, dairy and soy, and your mother was exposed to too many of them while you were in utero, maybe from one too many microwaved tupperware meals - fast forward, and here we are. I guess you aren't supposed to feed petroleum residue to the consumers, oh well.

How to deal with that is, indeed, the question.

You can live, and you can be whole, being the way you were born.

Again, I do apologize for being the "share your feelings, okay - your feelings are wrong" guy, but there is one truth and there is one human design, and so the truth about me is also the truth about you. If I wanted to engage with the logic of "X makes me feel..." I could be down a thousand rabbit holes instead of taking care of business. These might not be your rabbit holes, but I could still take a long, windy road of thinking about how to change my own state of self instead of thinking about how to change the world, and die trying to do that.

You can't be happy without being useful, and you can't be useful without being happy. Happiness is peace, peace is peace with God, and that comes from executing His will in an efficient, detached and business-like way.

The self fades in a season, and it is what we do in the world which remains true.

The cure to gender dysphoria is gender apathy, and the route to gender apathy is just realizing that there are bigger picture things to care about, and taking the focal point off of your ego and self.

You want a proven cause? I'll just throw one out here randomly, and I'm not even being ironic:

"Educating people about xenoestrogens in the modern human environment, fetal and lifetime exposure to these chemicals, the permanent structural changes that this causes in people's brains and endocrine systems, the personal suffering experienced by people in your position, and the almost sadistic apathy of the PC crowd in ignoring this public health crisis and treating it as a positive identity revolution when it's actually an assembly line for angst, loneliness, sterility and suicide."

There are certainly other proven causes, but I assure you that it would be the work of God to dedicate your life to this, as this education would cause people to avoid these chemicals and prevent people from having your problem. This message needs to come from someone in your position, who has been directly affected by these issues.

I'm not even kidding - do some heavy research and bring it to Youtube. If you're good you will get a big audience, this is a hot button issue. Or do one of a thousand other things that would serve some higher purpose.

I'll say a prayer for you, give you some more practical advice, and let the sharks have this thread back.

First thing:

Get some magic mushrooms, go to a safe place where you can be alone, fast, eat them, and ask God to please explain to you why you are alive and what you are supposed to do with your life.

This may seem unconventional but I assure you it's a much more conservative way to try to be comfortable with yourself than sterilizing yourself, getting a bunch of surgeries, and taking opposite-sex hormones for the rest of your life. This does provoke lasting, positive change in some people, particularly PTSD - and, I guess, the dysphoria you describe is a sort of irrational anxiety, so give it a shot, it's safer than transitioning by far.

Once you're done with that - I don't even know where you are in the medical grinder in terms of drugs and surgeries, so this might not apply - but if you aren't that far gone, get your blood drawn and see what your baseline testosterone is. If it's too low or borderline low, consider that maybe your endocrine system is just messed up, and you might feel more comfortable with your sex if you were within the normal ranges of male sex hormone.

As a last ditch effort, just look at actual surgical outcomes, and understand what dilation is, what it looks like, and what people experience when they do it.

God have mercy on you.

[Luminesa]

Uh wait...what about mushrooms?

[Serrus]

-snip-

Or, you could just acknowledge that trans people exist, have existed since humanity has existed, and realize that we who are not cis-het *gestures to thread* will not convert because of your preachy, almost-cult like posts.
And I'm asexual (hence the 'we') and atheist.
So kindly take this elsewhere, please.

[Mercuriuseudoro]

These are of course my opinions which will get me absolutely no where using them as a platform for debate. So I only focus on things that will actually have a productive debate like the use of puberty blockers in GD minors.

Look man, I read where you're coming from - I'm sure you are a great theologian, but you are not good at arguing on the internet.

You cannot get roped into playing by other people's rules, or thinking you are in a university debate. You, between you and God, need to figure out what is right and what is wrong - castrating children is obviously wrong, and it is in the same overarching category of "child abuse" in which you can also find circumcision, female genital mutilation, pedophilia and human sacrifice.

Once you have figured out what is right and wrong, you need to worry more about winning, and less about respecting other people's taboos.

You do not move the Overton window by only making arguments which are permissible. You move it by making statements which are controversial but also obviously true - "The Emperor Has No Clothes" declarations.

You are always arguing for the audience, which is always at least 100x greater than the person you are arguing with, and more likely to change their mind. Your objective is to make these obviously true but controversial statements, to model to the audience that it is permitted to say them, and therefore, it is permitted to think them.

What you are dealing with in this thread is, in no uncertain terms, a microcosmic manifestation of the eternal conflict between metaphysical good and evil, between Creation and the force which seeks to pervert Creation. You should recognize these situations as such, and when you are in them, you should have the courage to call evil by its name - especially when it offends people.

[Valgora]

These are of course my opinions which will get me absolutely no where using them as a platform for debate. So I only focus on things that will actually have a productive debate like the use of puberty blockers in GD minors.

Look man, I read where you're coming from - I'm sure you are a great theologian, but you are not good at arguing on the internet.

You cannot get roped into playing by other people's rules, or thinking you are in a university debate. You, between you and God, need to figure out what is right and what is wrong - castrating children is obviously wrong, and it is in the same overarching category of "child abuse" in which you can also find circumcision, female genital mutilation, pedophilia and human sacrifice.

Once you have figured out what is right and wrong, you need to worry more about winning, and less about respecting other people's taboos.

You do not move the Overton window by only making arguments which are permissible. You move it by making statements which are controversial but also obviously true - "The Emperor Has No Clothes" declarations.

You are always arguing for the audience, which is always at least 100x greater than the person you are arguing with, and more likely to change their mind. Your objective is to make these obviously true but controversial statements, to model to the audience that it is permitted to say them, and therefore, it is permitted to think them.

What you are dealing with in this thread is, in no uncertain terms, a microcosmic manifestation of the eternal conflict between metaphysical good and evil, between Creation and the force which seeks to pervert Creation. You should recognize these situations as such, and when you are in them, you should have the courage to call evil by its name - especially when it offends people.

There are parts of this post that are stupider than Pornogrind.

[Tarsonis]

These are of course my opinions which will get me absolutely no where using them as a platform for debate. So I only focus on things that will actually have a productive debate like the use of puberty blockers in GD minors.

Look man, I read where you're coming from - I'm sure you are a great theologian, but you are not good at arguing on the internet

And that’s where I stopped caring. I don’t give a shit about the macrocosm. I debate things on the internet in order to learn, not win the bloody culture war. It’s NS not crossfire on CNN, there is no greater audience here. And considering that process pushed me on a path that took me through the Ivy League, I think I’m doing just fine with it. Keep that in mind next time you try to condescend to me.

I humored your WN questions, but you’ve quickly worn out your welcome with me.

[Khasinkonia]

With regards to these comments, I don’t have much to say other than this:
I am an Episcopalian, which has many implications, but the one that’s important here is that I don’t believe I am sinning simply by being who I am. Both of y’all have clearly different religious views than me. Even if you happen to be a theology teacher, you teach a different theology than my church ascribes to. Theologians of all denominations have merit, but I believe my own first. With that said, I think the other comments here have moved into the realm of unproductive collision of ideas, so I’m not going to waste any of our time further elaborating on ideas that don’t seem to translate well to y’all’s views of the world and of theology. Have a good night, or whatever time of day it is. I appreciate the discussion, and I’m glad we were able to keep it nice and polite for a good while.

[Twilight Imperium]

Look man, I read where you're coming from - I'm sure you are a great theologian, but you are not good at arguing on the internet

And that’s where I stopped caring. I don’t give a shit about the macrocosm. I debate things on the internet in order to learn, not win the bloody culture war. It’s NS not crossfire on CNN, there is no greater audience here. And considering that process pushed me on a path that took me through the Ivy League, I think I’m doing just fine with it. Keep that in mind next time you try to condescend to me.

I humored your WN questions, but you’ve quickly worn out your welcome with me.

Also, you win by convincing other people you're right, not spouting religious babble and waiting for everyone to bow down at your feet as they realize that yours is the Truth (tm). Tarsonis gets this, you do not.

Proverbs 25:15 - Through patience a ruler can be persuaded, and a gentle tongue can break a bone.

[Tarsonis]

With regards to these comments, I don’t have much to say other than this:
I am an Episcopalian, which has many implications, but the one that’s important here is that I don’t believe I am sinning simply by being who I am. Both of y’all have clearly different religious views than me. Even if you happen to be a theology teacher, you teach a different theology than my church ascribes to. Theologians of all denominations have merit, but I believe my own first. With that said, I think the other comments here have moved into the realm of unproductive collision of ideas, so I’m not going to waste any of our time further elaborating on ideas that don’t seem to translate well to y’all’s views of the world and of theology. Have a good night, or whatever time of day it is. I appreciate the discussion, and I’m glad we were able to keep it nice and polite for a good while.

Thank you. This is exactly why I don’t bring them up in this context, it just wouldn’t be productive. And the “debate” would just be people talking past each other.

Feel free to hop over to the CDT if you want to get the theology debate on. I may be Catholic but Yale is an Episcopalian seminary, so I do have a wide base of knowledge in that field.

[Tarsonis]

And that’s where I stopped caring. I don’t give a shit about the macrocosm. I debate things on the internet in order to learn, not win the bloody culture war. It’s NS not crossfire on CNN, there is no greater audience here. And considering that process pushed me on a path that took me through the Ivy League, I think I’m doing just fine with it. Keep that in mind next time you try to condescend to me.

I humored your WN questions, but you’ve quickly worn out your welcome with me.

Also, you win by convincing other people you're right, not spouting religious babble and waiting for everyone to bow down at your feet as they realize that yours is the Truth (tm). Tarsonis gets this, you do not.

Proverbs 25:15 - Through patience a ruler can be persuaded, and a gentle tongue can break a bone.

I now have one piece at a time by Johnny Cash stuck on my head.
Also to do the trademark thing use the superscript button (sup).

[Twilight Imperium]

I now have one piece at a time by Johnny Cash stuck on my head.
Also to do the trademark thing use the superscript button (sup).

I appreciate the tip, but I don't want to put in more effort than he is.

(I'll use it next time though, thanks!)

[Luminesa]

And that’s where I stopped caring. I don’t give a shit about the macrocosm. I debate things on the internet in order to learn, not win the bloody culture war. It’s NS not crossfire on CNN, there is no greater audience here. And considering that process pushed me on a path that took me through the Ivy League, I think I’m doing just fine with it. Keep that in mind next time you try to condescend to me.

I humored your WN questions, but you’ve quickly worn out your welcome with me.

Also, you win by convincing other people you're right, not spouting religious babble and waiting for everyone to bow down at your feet as they realize that yours is the Truth (tm). Tarsonis gets this, you do not.

Proverbs 25:15 - Through patience a ruler can be persuaded, and a gentle tongue can break a bone.

...I like this verse. I like it a lot.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

Ewww, religion. ( I kid ofc)

But honestly I'm not entirely sure if it matters what some guys from thousands of years ago said when it comes to modern issues and my dysphoria. Why does it matter? I don't think their input on the subject can do anything of positive benefit on the subject that couldn't already be achieved through moral philosophy.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

I suppose I gots to clarify I don't mean that's not a rad discussion and you all seem very intelligent on the matter, but that I don't think modern society can really use the input of these books, even more recent ones like the book of Mormon, to address a problem that's only really been brought to the mainstream and been heard in a fair way in the past what, 20-60 years?

[Tarsonis]

I suppose I gots to clarify I don't mean that's not a rad discussion and you all seem very intelligent on the matter, but that I don't think modern society can really use the input of these books, even more recent ones like the book of Mormon, to address a problem that's only really been brought to the mainstream and been heard in a fair way in the past what, 20-60 years?

Not an unfair question really, but only means somethin if you’re irreligius and/or view the past as “backwards.”

For us religious folk, these 2000 year old writings are veritable truths inspired by the Creator of the universe. So they’re applicability doesn’t have an expiration date. The struggle of the modern theologian is applying these ancient texts to modern concepts, and the cutting edge of that right now really is the issue of the (for lack of a better word((by all means someone provide one if there is one))) Queer.

[Mattopilos II]

I suppose I gots to clarify I don't mean that's not a rad discussion and you all seem very intelligent on the matter, but that I don't think modern society can really use the input of these books, even more recent ones like the book of Mormon, to address a problem that's only really been brought to the mainstream and been heard in a fair way in the past what, 20-60 years?

Not an unfair question really, but only means somethin if you’re irreligius and/or view the past as “backwards.”

For us religious folk, these 2000 year old writings are veritable truths inspired by the Creator of the universe. So they’re applicability doesn’t have an expiration date. The struggle of the modern theologian is applying these ancient texts to modern concepts, and the cutting edge of that right now really is the issue of the (for lack of a better word((by all means someone provide one if there is one))) Queer.

GSRM? LGBTQ+?

Anyways, that is why no one is going to take you very seriously. Just as DI has said to me - you are talking on different wavelengths, and from different assumptions to reach differing conclusions. This argument is going to go no where, and I think we all know that. With that in mind, you could all, you know, butt out of each other's shit and let individuals act as they please unless it hurts other people? Let's say you see it as castration or degenerate behaviour.... and? Is it you carrying out the act? Does it affect you directly? Are you less free now that others are free? And I don't mean the "I can't say the N word" sort of lack of freedom. I couldn't care if all religion was thrust off the earth and burnt up (as much as an abstract set of concepts can do that), but I ain't telling all religious people to act, unless they are treating others like shit for not playing along with them and not wanting to follow their scripture or vision of life & death. This is different than the transgender community who want... to be treated like human beings. Oh no, pronouns!

Seriously, this conversation is boring. Really fucking boring.

[Tarsonis]

Not an unfair question really, but only means somethin if you’re irreligius and/or view the past as “backwards.”

For us religious folk, these 2000 year old writings are veritable truths inspired by the Creator of the universe. So they’re applicability doesn’t have an expiration date. The struggle of the modern theologian is applying these ancient texts to modern concepts, and the cutting edge of that right now really is the issue of the (for lack of a better word((by all means someone provide one if there is one))) Queer.

GSRM? LGBTQ+?

Anyways, that is why no one is going to take you very seriously. Just as DI has said to me - you are talking on different wavelengths, and from different assumptions to reach differing conclusions. This argument is going to go no where, and I think we all know that. With that in mind, you could all, you know, butt out of each other's shit and let individuals act as they please unless it hurts other people? Let's say you see it as castration or degenerate behaviour.... and? Is it you carrying out the act? Does it affect you directly? Are you less free now that others are free? And I don't mean the "I can't say the N word" sort of lack of freedom. I couldn't care if all religion was thrust off the earth and burnt up (as much as an abstract set of concepts can do that), but I ain't telling all religious people to act, unless they are treating others like shit for not playing along with them and not wanting to follow their scripture or vision of life & death. This is different than the transgender community who want... to be treated like human beings. Oh no, pronouns!

Seriously, this conversation is boring. Really fucking boring.

Umm you speaking at me or MercuriousEudoro?

[Mattopilos II]

GSRM? LGBTQ+?

Anyways, that is why no one is going to take you very seriously. Just as DI has said to me - you are talking on different wavelengths, and from different assumptions to reach differing conclusions. This argument is going to go no where, and I think we all know that. With that in mind, you could all, you know, butt out of each other's shit and let individuals act as they please unless it hurts other people? Let's say you see it as castration or degenerate behaviour.... and? Is it you carrying out the act? Does it affect you directly? Are you less free now that others are free? And I don't mean the "I can't say the N word" sort of lack of freedom. I couldn't care if all religion was thrust off the earth and burnt up (as much as an abstract set of concepts can do that), but I ain't telling all religious people to act, unless they are treating others like shit for not playing along with them and not wanting to follow their scripture or vision of life & death. This is different than the transgender community who want... to be treated like human beings. Oh no, pronouns!

Seriously, this conversation is boring. Really fucking boring.

Umm you speaking at me or MercuriousEudoro?

Both.

[Tarsonis]

Umm you speaking at me or MercuriousEudoro?

Both.

Well you shouldn’t. Because the only argument I made here was about treatment of minors who cannot reasonably advocate for themselves, and I didn’t even use theology to do it. If you want to rail against proselytizing, rail at the one doing it.

[Hediacrana]

Seeing that we're back to the never-ending 'theology and trans' debate, I just thought for the sake of contrast I'd share this bit from a facebook post that has been making the rounds during the last month or so:

In the beginning, God created day and night. But have you ever seen a sunset!?!? Well trans and non-binary people are kind of like that. Gorgeous. Full of a hundred shades of color you can't see in plain daylight or during the night.

In the beginning God created land and sea. But have you ever seen a beach?!?! Well trans and non-binary people are kind of like that. Beautiful. A balanced oasis that's not quite like the ocean, nor quite like the land.

In the beginning God created birds of the air and fish of the sea. But have you ever seen a flying fish, or a duck or a puffin that swims and flies, spending lots of time in the water and on the land!?!? Well trans and non-binary people are kind of like that. Full of life. A creative combination of characteristics that blows people's minds.

In the beginning God also created male and female, in God's own image, God created them. So in the same way that God created realities in between, outside of, and beyond night and day, land and sea, or fish and birds, so God also created people with genders beyond male and female. Trans and non-binary and agender and intersex, God created us. All different sorts of people for all different sorts of relationships. Created from love to love and be loved. In God's image we live.

God is still creating you. You are no less beautiful and wild than a sunset or a beach or a puffin. You are loved. You have a place here.

(The author is a nonbinary Lutheran pastor from Colorado).

[NeoOasis]

First thing:

Get some magic mushrooms, go to a safe place where you can be alone, fast, eat them, and ask God to please explain to you why you are alive and what you are supposed to do with your life.

Ah yes... Take drugs and then question your life decisions. I recall people often make the best decisions while on drugs.

That is one of the dumbest things I have read this month.

I do not condone the use of drugs, espcially/specifically in relation to life altering decisions. I urge everyone thinking about their own lives to do it sober and rationally. Not under the influence of mind altering substances.

[Cekoviu]

Not to shut down the adorable transphobia here, but could we maybe discuss being transgender rather than how you as a cis person feel about them transes?

[Tarsonis]

Seeing that we're back to the never-ending 'theology and trans' debate, I just thought for the sake of contrast I'd share this bit from a facebook post that has been making the rounds during the last month or so:

In the beginning, God created day and night. But have you ever seen a sunset!?!? Well trans and non-binary people are kind of like that. Gorgeous. Full of a hundred shades of color you can't see in plain daylight or during the night.

In the beginning God created land and sea. But have you ever seen a beach?!?! Well trans and non-binary people are kind of like that. Beautiful. A balanced oasis that's not quite like the ocean, nor quite like the land.

In the beginning God created birds of the air and fish of the sea. But have you ever seen a flying fish, or a duck or a puffin that swims and flies, spending lots of time in the water and on the land!?!? Well trans and non-binary people are kind of like that. Full of life. A creative combination of characteristics that blows people's minds.

In the beginning God also created male and female, in God's own image, God created them. So in the same way that God created realities in between, outside of, and beyond night and day, land and sea, or fish and birds, so God also created people with genders beyond male and female. Trans and non-binary and agender and intersex, God created us. All different sorts of people for all different sorts of relationships. Created from love to love and be loved. In God's image we live.

God is still creating you. You are no less beautiful and wild than a sunset or a beach or a puffin. You are loved. You have a place here.

(The author is a nonbinary Lutheran pastor from Colorado).

Sigh with the exception of the last line it’s a bunch of bullshit. Pedestrian orology with no regard of established Christian concepts of sex/gender, and the moral components of each.

[Tarsonis]

Not to shut down the adorable transphobia here, but could we maybe discuss being transgender rather than how you as a cis person feel about them transes?

You say that word like it’s supposed to mean something.