Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Mardla]

There's something pretty funny about seeing bright red big letters "WE WILL NOT TOLERATE DELIBERATE MISGENDERING!"

Crazy crazy world we're in.

What's funny about treating people with basic respect?

I have an old grammar book which says, "In English, gender is determined by sex." So it's more than "basic respect", it's a major change to our way of thinking and speaking.

[Vassenor]

What's funny about treating people with basic respect?

I have an old grammar book which says, "In English, gender is determined by sex." So it's more than "basic respect", it's a major change to our way of thinking and speaking.

So rejecting our very existence because it doesn't fit your personal beliefs isn't disrespectful?

[Dumb Ideologies]

I have an old grammar book which says, "In English, gender is determined by sex." So it's more than "basic respect", it's a major change to our way of thinking and speaking.

So rejecting our very existence because it doesn't fit your personal beliefs isn't disrespectful?

Completely refusing to acknowledge the fundamental identity of someone standing in front of you is always going to involve some disrespect towards them. There are compromises that allow people to scrape by in a relatively polite way, like the NSG-rule of referring to people as "they" or avoiding pronouns if you don't accept transgenderism so at least you're not actively asserting an identity upon them.

The same accusation of disrespect goes for failing to recognise the extent of what we're asking for from society and throwing our toys out the pram like over-entitled brats if we don't instantly get it from everyone in totality or if someone makes an honest mistake. We're done a great disservice in particular by the extraordinary demands that a few narcissists make (like having different pronouns on different days, or for people to refer to them using a made-up pronoun, or for the removal of gendered terms from society more generally etc etc).

[Mardla]

I have an old grammar book which says, "In English, gender is determined by sex." So it's more than "basic respect", it's a major change to our way of thinking and speaking.

So rejecting our very existence because it doesn't fit your personal beliefs isn't disrespectful?

I'm not saying that. I am saying you are asking a hell of a lot. Sometimes a hell of a lot should be asked, whether or not I support it here is beside the point. But trying to pretend you don't ask a hell of a lot is incorrect. You do not ask for something basic, you ask for something drastic. Which should not be done with such incredible indignation.

[Cekoviu]

There's something pretty funny about seeing bright red big letters "WE WILL NOT TOLERATE DELIBERATE MISGENDERING!"

Crazy crazy world we're in.

Thanks for the valuable input.

[Cekoviu]

So rejecting our very existence because it doesn't fit your personal beliefs isn't disrespectful?

I'm not saying that. I am saying you are asking a hell of a lot. Sometimes a hell of a lot should be asked, whether or not I support it here is beside the point. But trying to pretend you don't ask a hell of a lot is incorrect. You do not ask for something basic, you ask for something drastic. Which should not be done with such incredible indignation.

Asking for someone to use a different consonant at the start of a word is drastic?

[Mardla]

I'm not saying that. I am saying you are asking a hell of a lot. Sometimes a hell of a lot should be asked, whether or not I support it here is beside the point. But trying to pretend you don't ask a hell of a lot is incorrect. You do not ask for something basic, you ask for something drastic. Which should not be done with such incredible indignation.

Asking for someone to use a different consonant at the start of a word is drastic?

I'm sorry, are you seriously going to trivialize it as that? If it were that trivial, you yourself would not care so much. It is a drastic change in our way of speaking and therefore thinking.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

So rejecting our very existence because it doesn't fit your personal beliefs isn't disrespectful?

I'm not saying that. I am saying you are asking a hell of a lot. Sometimes a hell of a lot should be asked, whether or not I support it here is beside the point. But trying to pretend you don't ask a hell of a lot is incorrect. You do not ask for something basic, you ask for something drastic. Which should not be done with such incredible indignation.

You can always use a neutral pronoun if this is oh so drastic. Having a modicum of decency is not that hard when you really analyze it.

That being said, DI brought a valid point. There's a quid pro quo here too and we must all accept that this indeed is asking for a change in how society approaches gender, sex and non-conformity. Asking for respect is all well and good, but within reason too. Especially when there are people who ask to be called by made up pronouns (something that makes me roll my eyes but I don't have an issue calling you ''xer'' if that's what you want). If you don't get that, throwing a tantrum isn't the way to go either.

Completely refusing to acknowledge the fundamental identity of someone standing in front of you is always going to involve some disrespect towards them. There are compromises that allow people to scrape by in a relatively polite way, like the NSG-rule of referring to people as "they" or avoiding pronouns if you don't accept transgenderism so at least you're not actively asserting an identity upon them.

The same accusation of disrespect goes for failing to recognise the extent of what we're asking for from society and throwing our toys out the pram like over-entitled brats if we don't instantly get it from everyone in totality or if someone makes an honest mistake. We're done a great disservice in particular by the extraordinary demands that a few narcissists make (like having different pronouns on different days, or for people to refer to them using a made-up pronoun, or for the removal of gendered terms from society more generally etc etc).

[Mardla]

If you don't get that, throwing a tantrum isn't the way to go either.

That's a two-way street, you know.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

If you don't get that, throwing a tantrum isn't the way to go either.

That's a two-way street, you know.

Never said it wasn't. Read the bold.

I'm not saying that. I am saying you are asking a hell of a lot. Sometimes a hell of a lot should be asked, whether or not I support it here is beside the point. But trying to pretend you don't ask a hell of a lot is incorrect. You do not ask for something basic, you ask for something drastic. Which should not be done with such incredible indignation.

You can always use a neutral pronoun if this is oh so drastic. Having a modicum of decency is not that hard when you really analyze it.

That being said, DI brought a valid point. There's a quid pro quo here too and we must all accept that this indeed is asking for a change in how society approaches gender, sex and non-conformity. Asking for respect is all well and good, but within reason too. Especially when there are people who ask to be called by made up pronouns (something that makes me roll my eyes but I don't have an issue calling you ''xer'' if that's what you want). If you don't get that, throwing a tantrum isn't the way to go either.

Completely refusing to acknowledge the fundamental identity of someone standing in front of you is always going to involve some disrespect towards them. There are compromises that allow people to scrape by in a relatively polite way, like the NSG-rule of referring to people as "they" or avoiding pronouns if you don't accept transgenderism so at least you're not actively asserting an identity upon them.

The same accusation of disrespect goes for failing to recognise the extent of what we're asking for from society and throwing our toys out the pram like over-entitled brats if we don't instantly get it from everyone in totality or if someone makes an honest mistake. We're done a great disservice in particular by the extraordinary demands that a few narcissists make (like having different pronouns on different days, or for people to refer to them using a made-up pronoun, or for the removal of gendered terms from society more generally etc etc).

[Philjia]

So rejecting our very existence because it doesn't fit your personal beliefs isn't disrespectful?

Completely refusing to acknowledge the fundamental identity of someone standing in front of you is always going to involve some disrespect towards them. There are compromises that allow people to scrape by in a relatively polite way, like the NSG-rule of referring to people as "they" or avoiding pronouns if you don't accept transgenderism so at least you're not actively asserting an identity upon them.

Deliberately undermining individuals doesn't do anything except get a rise out of them, which is great for political rhetoric but useless for actually getting the other side to engage with your ideas. If you really must have your fix schadenfreude, attempt to strip them of their confidence in their ideas.

[Ifreann]

What's funny about treating people with basic respect?

I have an old grammar book which says, "In English, gender is determined by sex." So it's more than "basic respect", it's a major change to our way of thinking and speaking.

It's a bit rich to say this online, where you have spent years and years referring to people by the pronouns they specify, with no idea whether those pronouns have anything to do with their physical sex in the vast majority of cases.

[Cekoviu]

Asking for someone to use a different consonant at the start of a word is drastic?

I'm sorry, are you seriously going to trivialize it as that? If it were that trivial, you yourself would not care so much. It is a drastic change in our way of speaking and therefore thinking.

It's only a change in your thinking if you've been thinking incorrectly, and I don't believe that we should let that continue unchecked.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Completely refusing to acknowledge the fundamental identity of someone standing in front of you is always going to involve some disrespect towards them. There are compromises that allow people to scrape by in a relatively polite way, like the NSG-rule of referring to people as "they" or avoiding pronouns if you don't accept transgenderism so at least you're not actively asserting an identity upon them.

Deliberately undermining individuals doesn't do anything except get a rise out of them, which is great for political rhetoric but useless for actually getting the other side to engage with your ideas. If you really must have your fix schadenfreude, attempt to strip them of their confidence in their ideas.

I think it a good compromise, in some way, if someone who unilaterally refused to address someone by preferred pronoun before decides to cave and at least use a gender neutral pronoun instead. It's an improvement of sorts. At least concerning the people who negate a person's identity due to ideology or religion or whatever. Mind you, the best thing to do, IMO, is use the pronouns a person prefers (regardless of whether you like them or not). But barring that, and in the spirit of reaching at least a common ground in some way, gender neutral pronouns like ''they'' are preferable. Some people will never acknowledge your identity, but if at least they use gender neutral pronouns, then things improve.

[Izaakia]

Do we even need pronouns? Serious point here. When was the last time you used a pronoun, except Dr which is gender neutral? It’s inefficient use of language.

I don’t reckon transgenders demand anything, I see it like I see all LGBTQ etc, its not for me but whatever they wanna do, they can, it doesn’t effect me, so I aren’t bothered. Be much better for you religious folk to refocus and pick a better fight, like protecting gods creations from climate change.

[ZhongJia]

I kind of hate gender, in general, being a detransitioner. A handful of trans people I know have sex dysphoria, and if that requires transition, I don’t care. Good on them for doing something they feel they need to.
But a lot of trans people (most that I know ) insist on things like “woman brains” and “man brains” and that’s sexism doesn’t exist, just genderism, and it’s pretty sexist and aggravating. They’re generally the crowd taking the piss out of lesbians and trying to screw over women’s Sports because it’s not affirming enough, when most of the sexually dysphoric people I know get that gender and sex are different (and that sex supersedes gender in almost every instance!) and aren’t sexist, homophobic jerks about it.
The former are way more popular, which is super crappy. I think it’s because it doesn’t dismantle sexism and meshes super well with patriarchal thought, versus going “hey, screw you, I like [gendered thing not of my sex], and it doesn’t change my sex! This gender stuff is crap!”. That’s wasier and people are lazy, to the point where they’ll merrily hurt others if it means altering themselves instead of the system, even if they have the most power in that system.
Anyway. That was my intro. Hi, y’all.

[Ifreann]

Do we even need pronouns? Serious point here. When was the last time you used a pronoun, except Dr which is gender neutral? It’s inefficient use of language.

Dr. isn't a pronoun. Pronouns are words like I, you, he, she, we, they.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I kind of hate gender, in general, being a detransitioner. A handful of trans people I know have sex dysphoria, and if that requires transition, I don’t care. Good on them for doing something they feel they need to.
But a lot of trans people (most that I know ) insist on things like “woman brains” and “man brains” and that’s sexism doesn’t exist, just genderism, and it’s pretty sexist and aggravating. They’re generally the crowd taking the piss out of lesbians and trying to screw over women’s Sports because it’s not affirming enough, when most of the sexually dysphoric people I know get that gender and sex are different (and that sex supersedes gender in almost every instance!) and aren’t sexist, homophobic jerks about it.
The former are way more popular, which is super crappy. I think it’s because it doesn’t dismantle sexism and meshes super well with patriarchal thought, versus going “hey, screw you, I like [gendered thing not of my sex], and it doesn’t change my sex! This gender stuff is crap!”. That’s wasier and people are lazy, to the point where they’ll merrily hurt others if it means altering themselves instead of the system, even if they have the most power in that system.
Anyway. That was my intro. Hi, y’all.

I have never met a trans person like that, tbf. :/

In fact, at least in my experience, many transgender people insist on a transgender brain, and how the structuring of said brain changes and is similar to that of the gender of expression. They often agree there is sexism, as well as genderism. Not the other way around. But it sounds like your experience has been tough there. Sorry about that.

[Cekoviu]

Do we even need pronouns? Serious point here. When was the last time you used a pronoun, except Dr which is gender neutral? It’s inefficient use of language.

I don’t reckon transgenders demand anything, I see it like I see all LGBTQ etc, its not for me but whatever they wanna do, they can, it doesn’t effect me, so I aren’t bothered. Be much better for you religious folk to refocus and pick a better fight, like protecting gods creations from climate change.

A lot of languages just do that, where pronouns don't distinguish by gender. Iirc it's an innovation of the Germanic languages.

[Cekoviu]

I kind of hate gender, in general, being a detransitioner. A handful of trans people I know have sex dysphoria, and if that requires transition, I don’t care. Good on them for doing something they feel they need to.
But a lot of trans people (most that I know ) insist on things like “woman brains” and “man brains” and that’s sexism doesn’t exist, just genderism, and it’s pretty sexist and aggravating. They’re generally the crowd taking the piss out of lesbians and trying to screw over women’s Sports because it’s not affirming enough, when most of the sexually dysphoric people I know get that gender and sex are different (and that sex supersedes gender in almost every instance!) and aren’t sexist, homophobic jerks about it.
The former are way more popular, which is super crappy. I think it’s because it doesn’t dismantle sexism and meshes super well with patriarchal thought, versus going “hey, screw you, I like [gendered thing not of my sex], and it doesn’t change my sex! This gender stuff is crap!”. That’s wasier and people are lazy, to the point where they’ll merrily hurt others if it means altering themselves instead of the system, even if they have the most power in that system.
Anyway. That was my intro. Hi, y’all.

What exactly do you by mean by "taking the piss out of lesbians"?

[Misthas]

Do we even need pronouns? Serious point here. When was the last time you used a pronoun, except Dr which is gender neutral? It’s inefficient use of language.

I don’t reckon transgenders demand anything, I see it like I see all LGBTQ etc, its not for me but whatever they wanna do, they can, it doesn’t effect me, so I aren’t bothered. Be much better for you religious folk to refocus and pick a better fight, like protecting gods creations from climate change.

A lot of languages just do that, where pronouns don't distinguish by gender. Iirc it's an innovation of the Germanic languages.

If pronouns didn't distinguish by gender, it'd make a lot of problems go away.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I kind of hate gender, in general, being a detransitioner. A handful of trans people I know have sex dysphoria, and if that requires transition, I don’t care. Good on them for doing something they feel they need to.
But a lot of trans people (most that I know ) insist on things like “woman brains” and “man brains” and that’s sexism doesn’t exist, just genderism, and it’s pretty sexist and aggravating. They’re generally the crowd taking the piss out of lesbians and trying to screw over women’s Sports because it’s not affirming enough, when most of the sexually dysphoric people I know get that gender and sex are different (and that sex supersedes gender in almost every instance!) and aren’t sexist, homophobic jerks about it.
The former are way more popular, which is super crappy. I think it’s because it doesn’t dismantle sexism and meshes super well with patriarchal thought, versus going “hey, screw you, I like [gendered thing not of my sex], and it doesn’t change my sex! This gender stuff is crap!”. That’s wasier and people are lazy, to the point where they’ll merrily hurt others if it means altering themselves instead of the system, even if they have the most power in that system.
Anyway. That was my intro. Hi, y’all.

What exactly do you by mean by "taking the piss out of lesbians"?

The transmages mind-control new members into the community using uromancy.

[Auzkhia]

Do we even need pronouns? Serious point here. When was the last time you used a pronoun, except Dr which is gender neutral? It’s inefficient use of language.

I don’t reckon transgenders demand anything, I see it like I see all LGBTQ etc, its not for me but whatever they wanna do, they can, it doesn’t effect me, so I aren’t bothered. Be much better for you religious folk to refocus and pick a better fight, like protecting gods creations from climate change.

Ideally, there should not be gendered pronouns, some languages have a common 3rd person pronoun, like hän in Finnish, hän means both he and she, English has those, but also the singular they, which is what I use. I also speak German and French, and they have gendered pronouns and a lot of inflected based around masculine, feminine, and in German, neuter grammatical genders. In a language with gendered pronouns, it's important to use the correct ones. I think Mandarin has a same word for both he and she.

[Cekoviu]

What exactly do you by mean by "taking the piss out of lesbians"?

The transmages mind-control new members into the community using uromancy.

Sounds kinky.

[Misthas]

Do we even need pronouns? Serious point here. When was the last time you used a pronoun, except Dr which is gender neutral? It’s inefficient use of language.

I don’t reckon transgenders demand anything, I see it like I see all LGBTQ etc, its not for me but whatever they wanna do, they can, it doesn’t effect me, so I aren’t bothered. Be much better for you religious folk to refocus and pick a better fight, like protecting gods creations from climate change.

Ideally, there should not be gendered pronouns, some languages have a common 3rd person pronoun, like hän in Finnish, hän means both he and she, English has those, but also the singular they, which is what I use. I also speak German and French, and they have gendered pronouns and a lot of inflected based around masculine, feminine, and in German, neuter grammatical genders. In a language with gendered pronouns, it's important to use the correct ones. I think Mandarin has a same word for both he and she.

ACKCHYUALLY, while he/she are both pronounced as ta, they are written differently, with the male version the symbol for a male and the female version having the symbol for a female. not trying to be a smartass or anything; just thought I'd let you know.