Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Grenartia]

Can you fix those quotes, Dy?

Good now, or needs some more love on my part?

Yeah, that works. Thanks.

No loving God would mandate that on you. Either God hates you (which runs contrary to Scripture), or God is fine with you being a girl and transitioning. Those are the only two options. So either Scripture is wrong, or the person telling you these things is wrong.

1.

24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 For whoever wishes to save his [a]life will lose it; but whoever loses his [b]life for My sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Maybe the underlined is a sign that your views are wrong and need revision. The only times I don't immediately respond to somebody are when other things in life are more urgent (i.e., work, school, sleep, etc.), or I've been doing other things (either in other parts of NS, or other parts of the internet in general), or when I don't have the spoons at that moment to keep defending my existence. Not knowing what to say is never an issue in this context (though I do get it a fair amount in roleplays and other discussions).

Well, no. 2. As a Catholic I'm called to treat everyone with the same amount of respect, love and compassion that they deserve. And that unjust discrimination should be avoided at all costs, but we are to condemn sinful actions. That is what it says in the Catechism, which is our rulebook(since we don't believe in Sola Scriptura). 3. I just don't want to give the wrong impression that I, and by extension, the Church, hate trans people.

With good reason. Its another one of those seemingly convenient compartmentalizations that fails to hold up to assault from facts and logic.

4. Not really.

1. Methinks you're taking that verse entirely out of context.

2. Except when it comes to equal rights, apparently, or you wouldn't be here speaking against how two consenting adults express their love, or how anyone expresses their God-given gender identity (especially when it runs contrary to what would traditionally be expected from their sex assigned at birth). Catholicism talks a good game, but when it comes to backing that up with action, it becomes rather lethargic.

3. If your's, and the church's, sentiment is anything other than "As long as it doesn't harm anyone else, how somebody explores their God-given gender identity is of no concern to us", then you have failed in that mission.

4. Except it is. There's no justification for it to be a sin (unlike every other sin, such as murder, rape, etc.).

[The Parkus Empire]

Guys, Geneviev (who probably intends to get SRS as an adult) is just reiterating mom and dad out of dispair, not actually trying to argue the point from personal belief. You're completely missing the point.

I'm assuming that her parents are monitoring, or else she wouldn't have had to add the thing to her sig.


I'm not arguing against her, I'm arguing against her parents.

If that's your aim, you're doing it terribly. Your better bet would arguing that therapy is not the best way to treat sin, rather than telling them it's not sin, which you're not going to convince them of. Suggest maybe they should show boys can be into some feminine things and so forth. Geneviev will have to figure most of this out as an adult, only thing realistically to be done is mitigation.

[The New California Republic]

I'm assuming that her parents are monitoring, or else she wouldn't have had to add the thing to her sig.


I'm not arguing against her, I'm arguing against her parents.

If that's your aim, you're doing it terribly. Your better bet would arguing that therapy is not the best way to treat sin, rather than telling them it's not sin, which you're not going to convince them of. Suggest maybe they should show boys can be into some feminine things and so forth. Geneviev will have to figure most of this out as an adult, only thing realistically to be done is mitigation.

We have already been over that, several dozen pages back in the thread if you want to check.

[The Parkus Empire]

If that's your aim, you're doing it terribly. Your better bet would arguing that therapy is not the best way to treat sin, rather than telling them it's not sin, which you're not going to convince them of. Suggest maybe they should show boys can be into some feminine things and so forth. Geneviev will have to figure most of this out as an adult, only thing realistically to be done is mitigation.

We have already been over that, several dozen pages back in the thread if you want to check.

No, I'll take your word for it.

[Grenartia]

I'm assuming that her parents are monitoring, or else she wouldn't have had to add the thing to her sig.


I'm not arguing against her, I'm arguing against her parents.

1. If that's your aim, you're doing it terribly. 2. Your better bet would arguing that therapy is not the best way to treat sin, rather than telling them it's not sin, 3. which you're not going to convince them of. 4. Suggest maybe they should show boys can be into some feminine things and so forth. 5. Geneviev will have to figure most of this out as an adult, only thing realistically to be done is mitigation.

1. Coming from you, that's an indication I'm on the right track.

2. Which would be an explicit admission that it is a sin. Which it is not. And would only cause them to take other, even more draconian measures to "treat" it. Like locking her in a basement for 10 years.

3. You'd be surprised.

4. Because that's totally worked with solving gender dysphoria.

Besides, they'd consider that to be giving in. Which they're not going to do as long as they're still convinced its a sin.

5. Well, not precisely. This time of her life is when a lot of people figure these things out, and its psychologically and spiritually counterproductive to prevent that self-exploration.

[Dylar]

Good now, or needs some more love on my part?

Yeah, that works. Thanks.

1.


Well, no. 2. As a Catholic I'm called to treat everyone with the same amount of respect, love and compassion that they deserve. And that unjust discrimination should be avoided at all costs, but we are to condemn sinful actions. That is what it says in the Catechism, which is our rulebook(since we don't believe in Sola Scriptura). 3. I just don't want to give the wrong impression that I, and by extension, the Church, hate trans people.

4. Not really.

1. Methinks you're taking that verse entirely out of context.

2. Except when it comes to equal rights, apparently, or you wouldn't be here speaking against how two consenting adults express their love, or how anyone expresses their God-given gender identity (especially when it runs contrary to what would traditionally be expected from their sex assigned at birth). Catholicism talks a good game, but when it comes to backing that up with action, it becomes rather lethargic.

3. If your's, and the church's, sentiment is anything other than "As long as it doesn't harm anyone else, how somebody explores their God-given gender identity is of no concern to us", then you have failed in that mission.

4. Except it is. There's no justification for it to be a sin (unlike every other sin, such as murder, rape, etc.).

1. Just a little. But only if you look at "deny himself." I was personally more aiming for "take up your cross and follow me" This could be Geniviev's cross. Just as much as celibacy is the cross that I must bear.

2. Is gender identity God-given? Anyway, like I said, we're called to respect others, but that doesn't mean that we can't condemn certain sins.

3. Condemning sins and forgiving sinners and welcoming them back to the Church after they repent = "Mission failed, we'll get 'em back next time?"

4. There is a justification. God finds it as an abomination. And do note that this is going off the fact that God finds crossdressing, bodily mutilation(which is what happens when you undergo sex reassignment surgery), and homosexuality an abomination(This last one is blurred and fuzzy when speaking in the context of trans people)

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Guys, Geneviev (who probably intends to get SRS as an adult) is just reiterating mom and dad out of dispair, not actually trying to argue the point from personal belief. You're completely missing the point.

I'm assuming that her parents are monitoring, or else she wouldn't have had to add the thing to her sig.


I'm not arguing against her, I'm arguing against her parents.

You can't change your thoughts, but you can just not act on them. Like for me that would mean not acting like a girl, or not transitioning.

No loving God would mandate that on you. Either God hates you (which runs contrary to Scripture), or God is fine with you being a girl and transitioning. Those are the only two options. So either Scripture is wrong, or the person telling you these things is wrong.

Don't worry, I'll reply to it in due time. I just need to sit down, write, revise and reword my answers so that it doesn't sound like I actually despise trans people. And so far...it's taking a long time for me to figure out how to word my answers to you and Gren. Damn writer's block...

Maybe the underlined is a sign that your views are wrong and need revision. The only times I don't immediately respond to somebody are when other things in life are more urgent (i.e., work, school, sleep, etc.), or I've been doing other things (either in other parts of NS, or other parts of the internet in general), or when I don't have the spoons at that moment to keep defending my existence. Not knowing what to say is never an issue in this context (though I do get it a fair amount in roleplays and other discussions).

No, more of "hate the sin, love the sinner" as much as everyone hates that line being repeated over and over again.

With good reason. Its another one of those seemingly convenient compartmentalizations that fails to hold up to assault from facts and logic.

I find it hard to believe that parents, who should love their children, would force their child to repress who she is just for their sake and for appearances. That, to me, is abusive and sinful.

[The New California Republic]

God finds ... bodily mutilation(which is what happens when you undergo sex reassignment surgery) ... an abomination

Which Bible verse in the following link forbids changing one's gender?

https://www.openbible.info/topics/self_mutilation

[Vassenor]

4. There is a justification. God finds it as an abomination. And do note that this is going off the fact that God finds crossdressing, bodily mutilation(which is what happens when you undergo sex reassignment surgery), and homosexuality an abomination(This last one is blurred and fuzzy when speaking in the context of trans people)

So does that make having pierced ears or tattoos sinful then?

[Dumb Ideologies]

God finds ... bodily mutilation(which is what happens when you undergo sex reassignment surgery) ... an abomination

Which Bible verse in the following link forbids changing one's gender?

https://www.openbible.info/topics/self_mutilation

It's like asking which Bible verse deals with teabagging in video games. The writers obviously didn't know about it. You read intent through the general drift of the writings on gender and sexuality. Which aren't ever going to be even vaguely progressive when considered against the cultural practices of two millennia later. Any contrary interpretation is super-reachy fanon. Why put so much effort into twisting theology to try and save a religion that doesn't give two shits about saving people like you unless you live in denial or join a sect that throws everything inconvenient in the bin and is blatantly heretical in doing so?

Thou canst not haveth thine cake and yet also eateth it.

[The New California Republic]

Which Bible verse in the following link forbids changing one's gender?

https://www.openbible.info/topics/self_mutilation

It's like asking which Bible verse deals with teabagging in video games. The writers obviously didn't know about it. You read intent through the general drift of the writings on gender and sexuality. Which aren't ever going to be even vaguely progressive when considered against the cultural practices of two millennia later. Any contrary interpretation is super-reachy fanon.

Dylar clearly has a Bible reference in mind from the way that he is speaking in a very matter-of-fact manner, I was just wondering if it is any of the ones on that list.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

4. There is a justification. God finds it as an abomination. And do note that this is going off the fact that God finds crossdressing, bodily mutilation(which is what happens when you undergo sex reassignment surgery), and homosexuality an abomination(This last one is blurred and fuzzy when speaking in the context of trans people)

So does that make having pierced ears or tattoos sinful then?

I don't agree, mind you, but 1 Corinthians 6:19, where it is declared that the body a temple, could be used to call tattooing sinful.

KJB: ''What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?''

[The Serbian Empire]

Which Bible verse in the following link forbids changing one's gender?

https://www.openbible.info/topics/self_mutilation

It's like asking which Bible verse deals with teabagging in video games. The writers obviously didn't know about it. You read intent through the general drift of the writings on gender and sexuality. Which aren't ever going to be even vaguely progressive when considered against the cultural practices of two millennia later. Any contrary interpretation is super-reachy fanon. Why put so much effort into twisting theology to try and save a religion that doesn't give two shits about saving people like you unless you live in denial or join a sect that throws everything inconvenient in the bin and is blatantly heretical in doing so?

Thou canst not haveth thine cake and yet also eateth it.

Or the text contradicts itself in spots as well. Loving thy neighbor and stoning them when they work on the Sabbath doesn't exactly mesh well.

[Jelmatt]

But if someone is trans, living as their gender identity improves their well-being.

It seems quite unreasonable to deem actions universally sinful when the same actions have different results for different people. I might desire to take some opioid pain pills to get high, and you could say that I shouldn't act upon that desire. But if another person has the same desire, except this person is suffering from extreme pain and wants to stop being in agony, would you say the action is wrong for each of us?

(As an analogy for the transgender issue, gender dysphoria is the pain and transitioning is the pill).

I mostly agree, although the theology is pretty sound and it is what it is. Christianity is a fairly dogmatic religion, and changes in attitude of such magnitude tend to take quite some time.

As for transitioning being the best choice, yes, usually. Although it's worth noting that's a decision best left until early adulthood, since 80% of children with gender dysphoria tend to grow out of it, for lack of a better term.

80% of children, yes. The persistence rate for adolescents is much, much higher (I don't have exact numbers, but it's way higher than 20%)--hence why in the DSM-5, gender dysphoria in adolescence and adulthood is one diagnosis, separate from gender dysphoria in childhood.

[Yaqobia]

I mostly agree, although the theology is pretty sound and it is what it is. Christianity is a fairly dogmatic religion, and changes in attitude of such magnitude tend to take quite some time.

As for transitioning being the best choice, yes, usually. Although it's worth noting that's a decision best left until early adulthood, since 80% of children with gender dysphoria tend to grow out of it, for lack of a better term.

80% of children, yes. The persistence rate for adolescents is much, much higher (I don't have exact numbers, but it's way higher than 20%)--hence why in the DSM-5, gender dysphoria in adolescence and adulthood is one diagnosis, separate from gender dysphoria in childhood.

I had no idea about the 80% of children ,or however prevalent it is in adolescents. I'm pretty much certain I had gender dysphoria as a child & adolescent, idk what else to call it. But I've always kept that secret as I worry that talking about it when I 'grew out of it' to just being very mildly uncomfortable and conflicted now, could be used as ammo against trans people.

[Dylar]

4. There is a justification. God finds it as an abomination. And do note that this is going off the fact that God finds crossdressing, bodily mutilation(which is what happens when you undergo sex reassignment surgery), and homosexuality an abomination(This last one is blurred and fuzzy when speaking in the context of trans people)

So does that make having pierced ears or tattoos sinful then?

Depends on the content of the tattoo/piercing. The way I understand it, it's morally neutral on a scale from morally evil to morally good. Self-mutilation would be kinda like the Blade Runner where he cuts off his working legs in favor for prosthetic limbs. Tattoo doesn't really do anything harmful to your body.

It's like asking which Bible verse deals with teabagging in video games. The writers obviously didn't know about it. You read intent through the general drift of the writings on gender and sexuality. Which aren't ever going to be even vaguely progressive when considered against the cultural practices of two millennia later. Any contrary interpretation is super-reachy fanon. Why put so much effort into twisting theology to try and save a religion that doesn't give two shits about saving people like you unless you live in denial or join a sect that throws everything inconvenient in the bin and is blatantly heretical in doing so?

Thou canst not haveth thine cake and yet also eateth it.

Or the text contradicts itself in spots as well. Loving thy neighbor and stoning them when they work on the Sabbath doesn't exactly mesh well.

Stoning is an Old Testament judicial law that does not apply to Christians as Christ came to fulfill the ceremonial and judicial laws with his sacrifice. We are however still called to follow the moral laws God has put forth since the Old Testament.

So does that make having pierced ears or tattoos sinful then?

I don't agree, mind you, but 1 Corinthians 6:19, where it is declared that the body a temple, could be used to call tattooing sinful.

KJB: ''What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?''

Only if you interpret it a certain way. There is one verse where the Bible did condemn tattoos. In Leviticus 19:28

28 You shall not make any cuts in your [a]body for the [b]dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.

Now, I think that was a ceremonial law for the Jewish people at the time because the Canaanites in Ancient Israel used to make tattoos on their bodies that would praise their gods.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

So does that make having pierced ears or tattoos sinful then?

Depends on the content of the tattoo/piercing. The way I understand it, it's morally neutral on a scale from morally evil to morally good. Self-mutilation would be kinda like the Blade Runner where he cuts off his working legs in favor for prosthetic limbs. Tattoo doesn't really do anything harmful to your body.

Or the text contradicts itself in spots as well. Loving thy neighbor and stoning them when they work on the Sabbath doesn't exactly mesh well.

Stoning is an Old Testament judicial law that does not apply to Christians as Christ came to fulfill the ceremonial and judicial laws with his sacrifice. We are however still called to follow the moral laws God has put forth since the Old Testament.

I don't agree, mind you, but 1 Corinthians 6:19, where it is declared that the body a temple, could be used to call tattooing sinful.

Only if you interpret it a certain way. There is one verse where the Bible did condemn tattoos. In Leviticus 19:28

28 You shall not make any cuts in your [a]body for the [b]dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.

Now, I think that was a ceremonial law for the Jewish people at the time because the Canaanites in Ancient Israel used to make tattoos on their bodies that would praise their gods.

It is the verse that's always used when I get a new tattoo. I'm considering tattooing it on my butt so I can show it to people every time they feel like butting in and don't mind their own fucking business.

[Dylar]

Depends on the content of the tattoo/piercing. The way I understand it, it's morally neutral on a scale from morally evil to morally good. Self-mutilation would be kinda like the Blade Runner where he cuts off his working legs in favor for prosthetic limbs. Tattoo doesn't really do anything harmful to your body.
Stoning is an Old Testament judicial law that does not apply to Christians as Christ came to fulfill the ceremonial and judicial laws with his sacrifice. We are however still called to follow the moral laws God has put forth since the Old Testament.
Only if you interpret it a certain way. There is one verse where the Bible did condemn tattoos. In Leviticus 19:28 Now, I think that was a ceremonial law for the Jewish people at the time because the Canaanites in Ancient Israel used to make tattoos on their bodies that would praise their gods.

It is the verse that's always used when I get a new tattoo. I'm considering tattooing it on my butt so I can show it to people every time they feel like butting in and don't mind their own fucking business.

Hehe, that's great. I'd love to get the Iron Cross tattoed on my neck. Or maybe a templar knight on my shoulder. Whichever won't drain my money account

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It is the verse that's always used when I get a new tattoo. I'm considering tattooing it on my butt so I can show it to people every time they feel like butting in and don't mind their own fucking business.

Hehe, that's great. I'd love to get the Iron Cross tattoed on my neck. Or maybe a templar knight on my shoulder. Whichever won't drain my money account

Quick parenthesis: if you want the tattoo to be well done, price shouldn't be an objection. Better you pay a little more and have a great piece than you pay too little and just get a horrid tattoo that you may end up having to retouch or cover up later on.

[Jelmatt]

80% of children, yes. The persistence rate for adolescents is much, much higher (I don't have exact numbers, but it's way higher than 20%)--hence why in the DSM-5, gender dysphoria in adolescence and adulthood is one diagnosis, separate from gender dysphoria in childhood.

I had no idea about the 80% of children ,or however prevalent it is in adolescents. I'm pretty much certain I had gender dysphoria as a child & adolescent, idk what else to call it. But I've always kept that secret as I worry that talking about it when I 'grew out of it' to just being very mildly uncomfortable and conflicted now, could be used as ammo against trans people.

Feel free to tell your story (to the extent you feel comfortable sharing that type of information). Telling your personal experience with that kind of stuff doesn't hurt trans people; you're not responsible for the ones who use it as ammo against trans people. You're only responsible for how you tell your story, not for how someone else twists it.

[Bienenhalde]

It's like asking which Bible verse deals with teabagging in video games. The writers obviously didn't know about it. You read intent through the general drift of the writings on gender and sexuality. Which aren't ever going to be even vaguely progressive when considered against the cultural practices of two millennia later. Any contrary interpretation is super-reachy fanon. Why put so much effort into twisting theology to try and save a religion that doesn't give two shits about saving people like you unless you live in denial or join a sect that throws everything inconvenient in the bin and is blatantly heretical in doing so?

Thou canst not haveth thine cake and yet also eateth it.

But the Bible really does not say much about transgender issues. In Leviticus or Deuteronomy somewhere there is a verse about "not pretending to be the opposite sex" or something like that, but it seems to be part of the ceremonial law and therefore not applicable to Christians. There are some verses which may reasonably be considered as condemning homosexuality, but it is harder to find any solid evidence that being transgender is contrary to Christianity.

[The Serbian Empire]

It's like asking which Bible verse deals with teabagging in video games. The writers obviously didn't know about it. You read intent through the general drift of the writings on gender and sexuality. Which aren't ever going to be even vaguely progressive when considered against the cultural practices of two millennia later. Any contrary interpretation is super-reachy fanon. Why put so much effort into twisting theology to try and save a religion that doesn't give two shits about saving people like you unless you live in denial or join a sect that throws everything inconvenient in the bin and is blatantly heretical in doing so?

Thou canst not haveth thine cake and yet also eateth it.

But the Bible really does not say much about transgender issues. In Leviticus or Deuteronomy somewhere there is a verse about "not pretending to be the opposite sex" or something like that, but it seems to be part of the ceremonial law and therefore not applicable to Christians. There are some verses which may reasonably be considered as condemning homosexuality, but it is harder to find any solid evidence that being transgender is contrary to Christianity.

Some say the Old Testament ceremonial law is more vital than the mixing of fabric materials.

[Sovaal]

But the Bible really does not say much about transgender issues. In Leviticus or Deuteronomy somewhere there is a verse about "not pretending to be the opposite sex" or something like that, but it seems to be part of the ceremonial law and therefore not applicable to Christians. There are some verses which may reasonably be considered as condemning homosexuality, but it is harder to find any solid evidence that being transgender is contrary to Christianity.

Some say the Old Testament ceremonial law is more vital than the mixing of fabric materials.

I like bacon though. I'll pass.

[The South Falls]

But the Bible really does not say much about transgender issues. In Leviticus or Deuteronomy somewhere there is a verse about "not pretending to be the opposite sex" or something like that, but it seems to be part of the ceremonial law and therefore not applicable to Christians. There are some verses which may reasonably be considered as condemning homosexuality, but it is harder to find any solid evidence that being transgender is contrary to Christianity.

Some say the Old Testament ceremonial law is more vital than the mixing of fabric materials.

It's basically a punishment book. The new testament is better as a moral guide. The old testament has more gruesome punishments than Saudi Arabia.

[Neutraligon]

Some say the Old Testament ceremonial law is more vital than the mixing of fabric materials.

It's basically a punishment book. The new testament is better as a moral guide. The old testament has more gruesome punishments than Saudi Arabia.

The new testament is a shit moral guide considering it contains the idea of redemption through the sacrifice of another person for deeds that other person did not commit as well as the entire idea about the end times.