Left-Wing Discussion Thread II: Behind 700,000 Bunkers

[The Empire of Pretantia]

This sounds a lot like "donations" in politics.

"Nah, you doing have to give anything in return, just remember who you got it from." *Wink wink*

Again, resources were held to be abundant, there wasn't a concept of private ownership, and people generally didn't spend that much time working. It's hard now to conceptualize economic activity without exchange, but we live in a radically different social setting than our ancestors. Exchange value would have made no sense in a hunter-gatherer society, and continues to make little sense to modern hunter-gatherer societies we have observed.

Here, have a (you). Don't worry, you don't have to give one in return. *Wink wink*

[Threlizdun]

Again, resources were held to be abundant, there wasn't a concept of private ownership, and people generally didn't spend that much time working. It's hard now to conceptualize economic activity without exchange, but we live in a radically different social setting than our ancestors. Exchange value would have made no sense in a hunter-gatherer society, and continues to make little sense to modern hunter-gatherer societies we have observed.

Here, have a (you). Don't worry, you don't have to give one in return. *Wink wink*

I outlined that there is a social expectation for everyone capable in a band to similarly provide gifts to other members of the band, and that there are punishments for violated these social norms, chiefly shaming or shunning. They still do not rely on exchange value however, as it makes little sense to assign specific values to goods or services in the context of a hunter-gatherer society. The gift is not provided in exchange for another gift; such as with individuals bartering goods and comparing associated values to reach equilibrium, but a socially-expected task for everyone capable in a band or tribe to provide freely to others. There is no trading happening and there is no ownership of resources.

[Northern Davincia]

Here, have a (you). Don't worry, you don't have to give one in return. *Wink wink*

I outlined that there is a social expectation for everyone capable in a band to similarly provide gifts to other members of the band, and that there are punishments for violated these social norms, chiefly shaming or shunning. They still do not rely on exchange value however, as it makes little sense to assign specific values to goods or services in the context of a hunter-gatherer society. The gift is not provided in exchange for another gift; such as with individuals bartering goods and comparing associated values to reach equilibrium, but a socially-expected task for everyone capable in a band or tribe to provide freely to others. There is no trading happening and there is no ownership of resources.

I know a way to simplify all that.

[Kubra]

Again, resources were held to be abundant, there wasn't a concept of private ownership, and people generally didn't spend that much time working. It's hard now to conceptualize economic activity without exchange, but we live in a radically different social setting than our ancestors. Exchange value would have made no sense in a hunter-gatherer society, and continues to make little sense to modern hunter-gatherer societies we have observed.

Here, have a (you). Don't worry, you don't have to give one in return. *Wink wink*

Look I know I'm bad for using > but let's try to keep 4chan stuff to a bare minimum

[The Widening Gyre]

To be entirely fair, those research dollars for things without a lot of "direct benefits" often aren't done because of profit motive or state interest, and is often one of the things funding gets taken away from for projects that do have a lot of direct benefits, that do have a potential for profit or otherwise serves the interest of the state. The only reason they get any funding at all is because said research can produce unexpected benefits (numerous examples of "theoretical/non-practical" research work which our world currently relies on the benefits of can be given if desired).

I'd be interested in hearing about the unexpected benefits the F-35 program might bring humanity in exchange for its price tag.

Don't talk shit about science if you aren't involved in science, because those of us who are can and will shut it down.

I am involved in science.

Except, it did exist. For thousands of years.

How? Did Emma Goldman have a time machine I was unaware of?

Until people realized states allow for a better quality of life through superior resource distribution efficiency.

I'd be interested in seeing what proof you have of that particular back-projection.

And yet, after states came around, in about 5 millenia, we went from stick and mud huts to the cusp of harnessing the power of the sun itself. I cannot believe this is merely coincidence.

Is it possible it's something other than either directly causal or entirely unrelated? Can you think of some other potential explanations?

While your ideology may not have existed until very recently in that 5 millenia or so, the societal system it advocates DID. And it failed to advance humanity to any significant degree.

How could a complex social/ideological system laid out by a 19th century ideology exist in 3500 BCE?

[Tekeristan]

An-Prims have never had a freshly harvested pineapple.

[Kubra]

An-Prims have never had a freshly harvested pineapple.

pineapples are terrible.

[Liberalter]

An-Prims have never had a freshly harvested pineapple.

According to the corporate elite. The ones pushing for GMO food and the corrupt non-regulated meat industry.

An-Prims have never had a freshly harvested pineapple.

pineapples are terrible.

Actually I find them quite delicious.

>Economy
>Not involving exchange

It's a barter economy where you expect others to give you stuff because you give them stuff.

Literally just bartering crossed with guilt tripping.

incorrect. In a gift economy you aren't required to give anything back to the person. It's literally just people giving each other things freely.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Medicine may one day give us these same benefits with the added bonus of genetic safety and without having to alter our humanity. We don't need to be improved upon, we are fine as we are.

I totally agree though in regards to space travel

Just because we are fine as we are doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.

We alter our humanity all the time, either environmentally or through sexual selection.

That's not altering humanity, that is literally doing what we are naturally designed to do. I agree that there is room for improvement, but spiritual, not physical. Our greatest deficiency today is not our lacking physical qualities, but our poor moral character and irresponsibility.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

An-Prims have never had a freshly harvested pineapple.

According to the corporate elite. The ones pushing for GMO food and the corrupt non-regulated meat industry.

pineapples are terrible.

Actually I find them quite delicious.

Literally just bartering crossed with guilt tripping.

incorrect. In a gift economy you aren't required to give anything back to the person. It's literally just people giving each other things freely.

*Wink wink*

[Northern Davincia]

An-Prims have never had a freshly harvested pineapple.

pineapples are terrible.

On pizza, at least.

[Tekeristan]

An-Prims have never had a freshly harvested pineapple.

pineapples are terrible.

How about donuts?
My point is food is delicious and I love agriculture.

Also, GMos are fine. Leave them be!

[Kubra]

pineapples are terrible.

How about donuts?
My point is food is delicious and I love agriculture.

Also, GMos are fine. Leave them be!

Donuts are great. That's a dumb question. Pineapples are not. That's simply a fact of life.

[Nazbol Pudding Club]

How about donuts?
My point is food is delicious and I love agriculture.

Also, GMos are fine. Leave them be!

Donuts are great. That's a dumb question. Pineapples are not. That's simply a fact of life.

Even liberals become advocates of sending revisionists down salt mines when they see people putting pineapples on pizza.

[Tekeristan]

How about donuts?
My point is food is delicious and I love agriculture.

Also, GMos are fine. Leave them be!

Donuts are great. That's a dumb question. Pineapples are not. That's simply a fact of life.

What about mangos?

[Kubra]

Donuts are great. That's a dumb question. Pineapples are not. That's simply a fact of life.

What about mangos?

I'd sooner eat a pineapple.

[Tekeristan]

What about mangos?

I'd sooner eat a pineapple.

Do you just not like fruit, and if so, what sort of alien are you?

[Grenartia]

Reminds me of when everybody and their brother (at least, those of yall who don't trust physicists to know what we're fucking talking about) was concerned that turning on the LHC would cause a black hole to swallow the planet.

I'd fund it even if it did.

Truly, the Dr. Strangelove of our generation.

To be entirely fair, those research dollars for things without a lot of "direct benefits" often aren't done because of profit motive or state interest, and is often one of the things funding gets taken away from for projects that do have a lot of direct benefits, that do have a potential for profit or otherwise serves the interest of the state. The only reason they get any funding at all is because said research can produce unexpected benefits (numerous examples of "theoretical/non-practical" research work which our world currently relies on the benefits of can be given if desired).

1. I'd be interested in hearing about the unexpected benefits the F-35 program might bring humanity in exchange for its price tag.

Don't talk shit about science if you aren't involved in science, because those of us who are can and will shut it down.

2. I am involved in science.

Except, it did exist. For thousands of years.

3. How? Did Emma Goldman have a time machine I was unaware of?

Until people realized states allow for a better quality of life through superior resource distribution efficiency.

4. I'd be interested in seeing what proof you have of that particular back-projection.

And yet, after states came around, in about 5 millenia, we went from stick and mud huts to the cusp of harnessing the power of the sun itself. I cannot believe this is merely coincidence.

5. Is it possible it's something other than either directly causal or entirely unrelated? Can you think of some other potential explanations?

While your ideology may not have existed until very recently in that 5 millenia or so, the societal system it advocates DID. And it failed to advance humanity to any significant degree.

6. How could a complex social/ideological system laid out by a 19th century ideology exist in 3500 BCE?

1. You seem to be suffering from the mistaken impression I support the F-35 program. The majority of the cost of which comes from trying to make a fighter that can do everything as well as the multiple planes it is replacing. Which is pretty much impossible without spending a shitload of money.

2. If you were, then you would already know these things.

3. Anarchy is simply a stateless society. In terms of human history, states are a fairly recent concept. Therefore, all societies before the rise of states were stateless. Therefore, they were all anarchist, even if the term did not exist at the time.

4. Logic. If stateless societies were superior, they would still be around. We wouldn't be living in the US or the various countries of Europe. They would be stateless entities.

5. Nope, despite all efforts, I cannot.

6. See 3.

[Grenartia]

Literally just bartering crossed with guilt tripping.

incorrect. In a gift economy you aren't required to give anything back to the person. It's literally just people giving each other things freely.

Then what prevents the most popular person in the group from receiving all the gifts, thus accumulating a surplus of items, and being able to exercise control over the other members of the group (i.e., creating a hierarchy, which is the foundation of a state)?

[Kubra]

I'd sooner eat a pineapple.

Do you just not like fruit, and if so, what sort of alien are you?

Sure I do
Apples, now there's a good fruit. Real american fruit, that one. And let me tell ya, great in pies. Ever heard of mango pie?

[Liberalter]

incorrect. In a gift economy you aren't required to give anything back to the person. It's literally just people giving each other things freely.

Then what prevents the most popular person in the group from receiving all the gifts, thus accumulating a surplus of items, and being able to exercise control over the other members of the group (i.e., creating a hierarchy, which is the foundation of a state)?

No one is stupid enough to give everything to one person.

[Grenartia]

Then what prevents the most popular person in the group from receiving all the gifts, thus accumulating a surplus of items, and being able to exercise control over the other members of the group (i.e., creating a hierarchy, which is the foundation of a state)?

No one is stupid enough to give everything to one person.

Perhaps not everything, but its still conceivable that one person could be given enough that they could acquire a surplus that allows them to make privileged trades, building their surplus even more, etc.

[Tekeristan]

Do you just not like fruit, and if so, what sort of alien are you?

Sure I do
Apples, now there's a good fruit. Real american fruit, that one. And let me tell ya, great in pies. Ever heard of mango pie?

I,ve had mango ice cream,

[Kubra]

Sure I do
Apples, now there's a good fruit. Real american fruit, that one. And let me tell ya, great in pies. Ever heard of mango pie?

I,ve had mango ice cream,

I have too.
I still have flashbacks.

[Tekeristan]

I,ve had mango ice cream,

I have too.
I still have flashbacks.

Orgasmic!