Left-Wing Discussion Thread II: Behind 700,000 Bunkers

[Grenartia]

There are plenty of leftists who reject Marxian theory.

Modern social democrats.

There are anarchists and I believe a few other types of leftists that don't follow Marxian theory 100%.
I know an anarcho-syndicalist from Instagram who likes Marxism (I believe the example was Marxism-Luxemburgism), but said "transition state is a fuck".

But modern social democrats are the ones who truly reject Marxian theory. Of course, I'm not sure we should call them leftists.

I mean, I respect Marx's innovations, but I don't hold them as nearly dogmatically as Marxists tend to. There's a lot of Marxists that try and portray their ideology as inherently scientific in nature, when it objectively is not. Actual scientists don't go around calling everyone and their grandmother "revisionist swine".

[Aillyria]

<----- Economic leftist who's anti-marxist.

I prefer Proudhon, Sorel, or Baikunin.

Good, good.

Never really thought about it, but Sorel would probably appeal a lot to Muslims with his concept of moral regeneration.

Yes, that is primarily my attraction to Sorel's works, I agree with his assessment of moral erosion caused by the bourgeoisie social values (or lack thereof). Marx, on the other hand, is sickeningly materialistic.

[Kubra]

Sorry here, but I had a question regarding anarchism.
How do Anarchists deal with criminals?
Like, I know by abolishing Private Property, most of the types of crime can't technically happen (you can't steal something if everything belongs to everyone, for example), but there are some kinds of crime that exist nonetheless. unless it's a utopia, Rape, and Murder will happen for one reason or the other. so, how do left-wing anarchists deal with a murderer in their community?
or, Idk, how do we deal with someone who claims to own a means of production and closes it to the public use?

Public courts, witness testimony, and some form of rehabilitation process. Granted, if I were to imagine specific details they would be extremely different from those of today, just as rattling off specifics of 19th century english courts would, be the conceptual picture is about the same.

[Kubra]

Good, good.

Never really thought about it, but Sorel would probably appeal a lot to Muslims with his concept of moral regeneration.

Yes, that is primarily my attraction to Sorel's works, I agree with his assessment of moral erosion caused by the bourgeoisie social values (or lack thereof). Marx, on the other hand, is sickeningly materialistic.

>sickeningly materialistc
lol what's the problem

[Pilarcraft]

Sorry here, but I had a question regarding anarchism.
How do Anarchists deal with criminals?
Like, I know by abolishing Private Property, most of the types of crime can't technically happen (you can't steal something if everything belongs to everyone, for example), but there are some kinds of crime that exist nonetheless. unless it's a utopia, Rape, and Murder will happen for one reason or the other. so, how do left-wing anarchists deal with a murderer in their community?
or, Idk, how do we deal with someone who claims to own a means of production and closes it to the public use?

Public courts, witness testimony, and some form of rehabilitation process. Granted, if I were to imagine specific details they would be extremely different from those of today, just as rattling off specifics of 19th century english courts would, be the conceptual picture is about the same.

so essentially it's a very very liberal version of the Common Law system? where the people decide what to do on a case-to-case basis? (Also, could you gve me a link to a few articles? I wanna read more on it)

[Aillyria]

Yes, that is primarily my attraction to Sorel's works, I agree with his assessment of moral erosion caused by the bourgeoisie social values (or lack thereof). Marx, on the other hand, is sickeningly materialistic.

>sickeningly materialistc
lol what's the problem

I loath materialism, I don’t think it has any place in socialism.

[Kubra]

>sickeningly materialistc
lol what's the problem

I loath materialism, I don’t think it has any place in socialism.

that's not quite an answer is it
I'm asking why you loathe materialism.

[Kubra]

Public courts, witness testimony, and some form of rehabilitation process. Granted, if I were to imagine specific details they would be extremely different from those of today, just as rattling off specifics of 19th century english courts would, be the conceptual picture is about the same.

so essentially it's a very very liberal version of the Common Law system? where the people decide what to do on a case-to-case basis? (Also, could you gve me a link to a few articles? I wanna read more on it)

I unfortunately cannot. It's a time honoured tradition not to make up blueprints for future institutions. Here's an article from an old crim class
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library ... al-justice
(it was not linked via anarchistlibrary, of course)
The section "A new way forward — a restorative approach to justice" more or less lays the theoretical groundwork on the matter, as well as being a lot less vague on practice than I will continue to be. Not bureaucratic enough for my tastes, tbh.

[Aillyria]

I loath materialism, I don’t think it has any place in socialism.

that's not quite an answer is it
I'm asking why you loathe materialism.

Hmm....perhaps I should clarify. I don't hate dialectic materialism nor do I entirely disagree with it. What I dislike is the athiesm of marxism, that's more semantically accurate to describe my distaste for Marx.

[Grenartia]

that's not quite an answer is it
I'm asking why you loathe materialism.

Hmm....perhaps I should clarify. I don't hate dialectic materialism nor do I entirely disagree with it. What I dislike is the athiesm of marxism, that's more semantically accurate to describe my distaste for Marx.

If anything, its just really pro-secularism. Which is a great thing.

[War Gears]

I loath materialism, I don’t think it has any place in socialism.

that's not quite an answer is it
I'm asking why you loathe materialism.

> asking why a religious person would loathe an atheistic theory that denies several elements of their religion.

Gee, I dunno.

[War Gears]

Hmm....perhaps I should clarify. I don't hate dialectic materialism nor do I entirely disagree with it. What I dislike is the athiesm of marxism, that's more semantically accurate to describe my distaste for Marx.

If anything, its just really pro-secularism. Which is a great thing.

Marxism makes some very materialistic (i.e atheistic) statements about the nature of reality, simply calling it "secularist" is watering it down.

[Aillyria]

If anything, its just really pro-secularism. Which is a great thing.

Marxism makes some very materialistic (i.e atheistic) statements about the nature of reality, simply calling it "secularist" is watering it down.

Marx did say "Religion is opium" or something to that effect. So, that wouldn't make me very keen on Marx, me being muslim and all.

[Kubra]

that's not quite an answer is it
I'm asking why you loathe materialism.

Hmm....perhaps I should clarify. I don't hate dialectic materialism nor do I entirely disagree with it. What I dislike is the athiesm of marxism, that's more semantically accurate to describe my distaste for Marx.

Well, that about explains it.

that's not quite an answer is it
I'm asking why you loathe materialism.

> asking why a religious person would loathe an atheistic theory that denies several elements of their religion.

Gee, I dunno.

Jeez I don't read u people sigs

Hmm....perhaps I should clarify. I don't hate dialectic materialism nor do I entirely disagree with it. What I dislike is the athiesm of marxism, that's more semantically accurate to describe my distaste for Marx.

If anything, its just really pro-secularism. Which is a great thing.

Nah marx was pretty up front about it being str8 up militant atheism, with critique of religion being a good first step towards a critique of society in general.

[Grenartia]

Marxism makes some very materialistic (i.e atheistic) statements about the nature of reality, simply calling it "secularist" is watering it down.

Marx did say "Religion is opium" or something to that effect. So, that wouldn't make me very keen on Marx, me being muslim and all.

The quote you're looking for is "Religion is the opiate of the masses". All he's saying there is people look to a higher power, or a metaphysical explanation of the world, to comfort them. Its not necessarily an insult against religion, and saying it is is on the same level as calling a doctor a drug dealer, simply because he prescribes somebody in intense pain an opiate painkiller.

[Aillyria]

Marx did say "Religion is opium" or something to that effect. So, that wouldn't make me very keen on Marx, me being muslim and all.

The quote you're looking for is "Religion is the opiate of the masses". All he's saying there is people look to a higher power, or a metaphysical explanation of the world, to comfort them. Its not necessarily an insult against religion, and saying it is is on the same level as calling a doctor a drug dealer, simply because he prescribes somebody in intense pain an opiate painkiller.

Eh, I still think it's obvious Marx was a committed and militant atheist. I have no problem with secularism, since I view institutionalization of religion as sinful, but institutionalized atheism is just as terrible.

[Dumb Ideologies]

It happens. The trigglypuff wing of NSG's libertarians like their snarl words regular and interchangeable no less than any of the other doctrinaire loons.

Wise man say: don't get mad, get a parody nation.

can you really whine about invectives while using invectives

That was diplomatic. If we were using invective I would have called them "lolbuttaryans". Get with the program

[Aillyria]

can you really whine about invectives while using invectives

That was diplomatic. If we were using invective I would have called them "lolbuttaryans". Get with the program

*Raises hands* PREACH!!!

[Noveos]

How can the left ensure the rights of the religious and counter-cultural? It is no secret that religions like Islam and Christianity harbor many views the left would view as insensitive, sexist, or homophobic.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

How can the left ensure the rights of the religious and counter-cultural? It is no secret that religions like Islam and Christianity harbor many views the left would view as insensitive, sexist, or homophobic.

First Amendment baby.

[Dumb Ideologies]

That was diplomatic. If we were using invective I would have called them "lolbuttaryans". Get with the program

*Raises hands* PREACH!!!

Kinda difficult for an advocate of secularism.

"Our polity on its island, hallowed be thy name. United Kingdom come, our will be done, from Land's End to John O'Groats. Give us this day our daily tea, and forgive us our Brexit, as we have also forgiven the Germans. Lead us into orderly queues, but deliver us from small-talk."

[Ostroeuropa]

*Raises hands* PREACH!!!

Kinda difficult for an advocate of secularism.

"Our polity on its island, hallowed be thy name. United Kingdom come, our will be done, from Land's End to John O'Groats. Give us this day our daily tea, and forgive us our Brexit, as we have also forgiven the Germans. Lead us into orderly queues, but deliver us from small-talk."

For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, forever and ever. Kettles boiled.

[Kubra]

can you really whine about invectives while using invectives

That was diplomatic. If we were using invective I would have called them "lolbuttaryans". Get with the program

jeez see
if we can all just accept name calling we can get back to name calling instead talking about calling names

[Australias]

Does anyone here have any data on food production in Anarchist societies?

[The Eternal Aulus]

Sorry here, but I had a question regarding anarchism.
How do Anarchists deal with criminals?
Like, I know by abolishing Private Property, most of the types of crime can't technically happen (you can't steal something if everything belongs to everyone, for example), but there are some kinds of crime that exist nonetheless. unless it's a utopia, Rape, and Murder will happen for one reason or the other. so, how do left-wing anarchists deal with a murderer in their community?
or, Idk, how do we deal with someone who claims to own a means of production and closes it to the public use?

I'd imagine mostly jury courts. The abolition of the state and/or private property depends on the form of anarchism too. Not all anarchism is inherently left or right wing.