Left-Wing Discussion Thread II: Behind 700,000 Bunkers

[Taihei Tengoku]

you cant struggle against marxism because it doesn't exist

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fig. 1: people acting out against nothing, how delusional

I'm not sure what phantom you think you're arguing against.

Because the Soviet Union and the East Bloc were state capitalist dictatorships that maintained all of the exploitative elements of capitalism at the barrel of a gun, and could only survive as long as they kept the population convinced there wasn't a better way while they were all clapping their hands and make believing that they were building socialism.

Some of the largest mass worker movements in history occurred in East Bloc states aimed explicitly against the phony socialism and for actual working class power: East Germany in 1952, Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1968.

And thus the cycle repeats. What could possibly cause these purported workingmen's revolutions to degenerate into state capitalism?

[Sanctissima]

Eh, I'd say Pol "Kill everyone with eyeglasses" Pot takes the cake for greatest exception.

And oi'm half Irish, so I concur regarding potatoes. Damn Sassanachs an' their Potato Famines.

This explains practically everything.

Quiet ye Sassanach!

Now gib reparations for Gorta Mor. Preferably in the form of Ulster.

[Trotskylvania]

I'm not sure what phantom you think you're arguing against.

Because the Soviet Union and the East Bloc were state capitalist dictatorships that maintained all of the exploitative elements of capitalism at the barrel of a gun, and could only survive as long as they kept the population convinced there wasn't a better way while they were all clapping their hands and make believing that they were building socialism.

Some of the largest mass worker movements in history occurred in East Bloc states aimed explicitly against the phony socialism and for actual working class power: East Germany in 1952, Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1968.

And thus the cycle repeats. What could possibly cause these purported workingmen's revolutions to degenerate into state capitalism?

Because only the first was an actual proletarian revolution by a working-class organized as a class for itself, and it occurred in circumstances where the revolution could never succeed. There is no such thing as socialism in one country anymore than there is capitalism in one country. The revolution failed because it never internationalized, and the regime became increasingly insular and despotic in the vain hope of holding onto power long enough to reverse this.

China was a peasant revolution that very explicitly aligned with the national bourgeoisie in a development and modernization plan, something very explicit in Mao's "New Democracy" program. There was no revolution against capitalism, only the constitution of a nation-state that tried, in vain, to insulate itself from the world capitalist market.

And Venezuela was only ever a social democratic experiment. There was no working-class revolution, only the mobilization of popular support to thwart a coup against a left-wing nationalist. And Venezuela has continued that vaguely left-wing nationalism at the barrel of a gun ever since.

[Taihei Tengoku]

Despite the difference in revolutionary procedure the views their weltanshauung turned out to be broadly the same.

[Syndicated Shyr]

If you haven't be called a revisionist or an opportunist at least once, then you aren't a true leftie.
Hi comrades!

[The Parkus Empire]

If you're denying any virtue in Marxism then why are you in this thread in the first place tbh

There are plenty of leftists who reject Marxian theory.

[Valgora]

If you're denying any virtue in Marxism then why are you in this thread in the first place tbh

There are plenty of leftists who reject Marxian theory.

Modern social democrats.

There are anarchists and I believe a few other types of leftists that don't follow Marxian theory 100%.
I know an anarcho-syndicalist from Instagram who likes Marxism (I believe the example was Marxism-Luxemburgism), but said "transition state is a fuck".

But modern social democrats are the ones who truly reject Marxian theory. Of course, I'm not sure we should call them leftists.

[The Parkus Empire]

There are plenty of leftists who reject Marxian theory.

Modern social democrats.

There are anarchists and I believe a few other types of leftists that don't follow Marxian theory 100%.
I know an anarcho-syndicalist from Instagram who likes Marxism (I believe the example was Marxism-Luxemburgism), but said "transition state is a fuck".

Since pretty much every theory and philosophy from the 19th Century, including scientific ones, have been either completely overhauled or replaced by more refined theories, it would be a bit peculiar if this didn't apply to Marxism. Even Darwin's theory of evolution has received major updates, arguably even replacements.

[MERIZoC]

If you're denying any virtue in Marxism then why are you in this thread in the first place tbh

There are plenty of leftists who reject Marxian theory.

Not in its entirety.

[Aellex]

Quiet ye Sassanach!

Now gib reparations for Gorta Mor. Preferably in the form of Ulster.

(Image)(Image)

2 6 + 6 = 1

[Rostavykhan]

If you haven't be called a revisionist or an opportunist at least once, then you aren't a true leftie.
Hi comrades!

> TFW I've been called revisionist/uncle tom/not a real Socialist plenty of times.

Yeet.

[War Gears]

If you haven't be called a revisionist or an opportunist at least once, then you aren't a true leftie.
Hi comrades!

The other day I was informed by a tankie that I was a Nazi, if that counts.

[Torrocca]

If you haven't be called a revisionist or an opportunist at least once, then you aren't a true leftie.
Hi comrades!

The other day I was informed by a tankie that I was a Nazi, if that counts.

Silly Tankie.

All true Commies know that Nazis are those cartoonish pinwheel wearing losers in jet black clothing.

[Rostavykhan]

> Implying Tankies or NatSoc are the greater evil compared to Capitalism.

So much infighting. Sad!

Though TBH I've been called both a Tankie and a Nazi. I'm pretty economically left, but I have varying feelings on all sorts of social issues that put me in a really weird spot.

[Bakery Hill]

There are plenty of leftists who reject Marxian theory.

There are anarchists and I believe a few other types of leftists that don't follow Marxian theory 100%.
I know an anarcho-syndicalist from Instagram who likes Marxism (I believe the example was Marxism-Luxemburgism), but said "transition state is a fuck".

That's awfully silly.

[War Gears]

> Implying Tankies or NatSoc are the greater evil compared to Capitalism.

So much infighting. Sad!

Though TBH I've been called both a Tankie and a Nazi. I'm pretty economically left, but I have varying feelings on all sorts of social issues that put me in a really weird spot.

Given that under national socialism, all of us in the thread would likely be shot in the throat or stuck in concentration camps, it seems safe to say that capitalism is the lesser evil compared to it.

Though that'd probably happen to us with tankies as well, based on the track record of Joe and Mao. Though they'd make us sign confessions saying we were Bukharin-Trotskyist-Hitlerite-Fascist counterrevolutionaries first.

[Kubra]

Modern social democrats.

There are anarchists and I believe a few other types of leftists that don't follow Marxian theory 100%.
I know an anarcho-syndicalist from Instagram who likes Marxism (I believe the example was Marxism-Luxemburgism), but said "transition state is a fuck".

Since pretty much every theory and philosophy from the 19th Century, including scientific ones, have been either completely overhauled or replaced by more refined theories, it would be a bit peculiar if this didn't apply to Marxism. Even Darwin's theory of evolution has received major updates, arguably even replacements.

the local trots push Marxism as a methodology instead of a science. A lot of folks just drop the discussion entirely and treat it simply as worldview.

[The Parkus Empire]

There are plenty of leftists who reject Marxian theory.

Not in its entirety.

That's not a very meaningful statement, since I accept aspects of Marx and I am even not a leftist.

[Lonograd]

I've been called a fascist and a Tankie.

Edit: Also I've been called an anti-Semite.

[The Parkus Empire]

Since pretty much every theory and philosophy from the 19th Century, including scientific ones, have been either completely overhauled or replaced by more refined theories, it would be a bit peculiar if this didn't apply to Marxism. Even Darwin's theory of evolution has received major updates, arguably even replacements.

the local trots push Marxism as a methodology instead of a science. A lot of folks just drop the discussion entirely and treat it simply as worldview.

A science is a methodology, and Marx's hypothesis is arguably a worldview.

[Bakery Hill]

I've been called a fascist and a Tankie.

Edit: Also I've been called an anti-Semite.

Wrongly accused, just like the Houthis. Very sad stuff.

[Kubra]

the local trots push Marxism as a methodology instead of a science. A lot of folks just drop the discussion entirely and treat it simply as worldview.

A science is a methodology, and Marx's hypothesis is arguably a worldview.

sure, but a methodology ain't a science. It matters what gets the top billing.

[The Parkus Empire]

A science is a methodology, and Marx's hypothesis is arguably a worldview.

sure, but a methodology ain't a science. It matters what gets the top billing.

"Science" is a type of methodology.

[Kubra]

sure, but a methodology ain't a science. It matters what gets the top billing.

"Science" is a type of methodology.

and to say "marxism" is a type of methodology is to give it a degree of mutual exclusivity.

[The Parkus Empire]

"Science" is a type of methodology.

and to say "marxism" is a type of methodology is to give it a degree of mutual exclusivity.

Marxism certainty has a unique methodology.