Left-Wing Discussion Thread II: Behind 700,000 Bunkers

[War Gears]

To quote a fine upstanding fellow -



Vitalism refers to numerous things besides the outdated scientific theory. In this case, the sentiment that human will, creativity, and sentiment were superior to reason.

I still stand by my statement in general. Logic should not be and cannot be allowed to be submissive to emotion. They must be balanced.

It already is submissive to emotion, reason can't be a motivational force and is dependent on preexisting desires. Most human conscious actions are undertaken by unconscious machinations we are not aware of. Furthermore, syndicalism's emphasis on a sense of vital aliveness is more appealing for youth than someone trying to explain dialectical materialism or other intellectual pretensions to them.

[Grenartia]

I was just being facetious, is all

Obviously insults are not a valid tactic and should be avoided.


Dictatorship and capitalism are not related at all!!

Nobody would support democracy without capitalism existing.

That may be the stupidest thing I've read all day, and its not even 2AM. I can skip over the next 22 hours, because I will surely encounter nothing as intellectually vacuous as that in that time period.

Protip: capitalism is not required for democracy, nor is it required for supporting it.

The last time there was almost absolute freedom in the market (in America) there was slavery galore.

Free markets aren't free.

Slavery goes against free market ideals.

Absolutely wrong. The only thing the free market cares about is pure, unadulterated profit. And what better way to maximize profit than by utilizing unpaid labor?

The definition of the free market has changed since the 19th century.

Taking Moving Goalposts to a new level.

Like, holy shit, he moved those goalposts faster than light.

Look at all the workers who built everything.
Did they get rich because of capitalism? Clearly no.

Should toilet cleaners earn as much as managers? No. Rich people are usually people who work harder and are usually more intelligent, the jobs rich people have usually require a lot of intelligence.

Look, mom, social darwinism rearing its ugly head again!

Also, toilet cleaners should earn much more than managers, because toilet cleaners deal with a lot more shit. Really, there shouldn't even be managers in a workplace. Nobody should get paid more (or really, at all) to sit around and bitch at people (who are already working more than the manager) to work harder.

[Martian Alliance]

I support a government that is socialist economically and democratic politically.

[War Gears]

Also, toilet cleaners should earn much more than managers, because toilet cleaners deal with a lot more shit. Really, there shouldn't even be managers in a workplace. Nobody should get paid more (or really, at all) to sit around and bitch at people (who are already working more than the manager) to work harder.

A toilet cleaner performs trivial labor and is easily expendable because it's not really a job that requires much skill. Managing a department may not be crude physical output, but it is more vital to an enterprise functioning than cleaning a toilet and requires more education.

[The Rich Port]

I have been considering starting a left-wing militia.

Less a straight up survivalist insurgency cell and more... Civil defense/social club/motorcycle club.

AK-104's. AK-104's as far as the eye can see. And denim jackets.

[The Rich Port]

Also, toilet cleaners should earn much more than managers, because toilet cleaners deal with a lot more shit. Really, there shouldn't even be managers in a workplace. Nobody should get paid more (or really, at all) to sit around and bitch at people (who are already working more than the manager) to work harder.

A toilet cleaner performs trivial labor and is easily expendable because it's not really a job that requires much skill. Managing a department may not be crude physical output, but it is more vital to an enterprise functioning than cleaning a toilet and requires more education.

Uh huh.

I'm sure you'll be saying that once the toilets are eldritch and clogged.

[Grenartia]

Should toilet cleaners earn as much as managers? No. Rich people are usually people who work harder and are usually more intelligent, the jobs rich people have usually require a lot of intelligence.

They require a degree of competency within a certain skill-set.
Simply boiling it down to intelligence is extremely misleading considering how many intelligent minimum wage workers there are.

*points to myself*

I've taken enough calculus to make anyone's head spin, and passed it, yet I still work in a grocery store stocking produce.

Hierarchy exists in human nature somewhat. It existed even in the Soviet union. The difference is that there is a chance to rise. Maybe the workers did not innovate enough and did not try in an intelligent way to move up the ranks. You are ignoring the fact. Smarter men than you or me move up the ranks.

Human nature for thousands of years saw no such things as hierarchies, not until the introduction of agriculture. If anything, humanity is inherently non-hierarchical.

To be fair, hierarchies are more efficient at allocating resources to reach a goal that needs completion (like building a skyscraper, or going to the moon, or even harvesting crops from a field, etc.).

How smart do you need to make a burger at McDonald's or clean a toilet?

What you 'need' to be and what you 'are' are two different things, you understand this yes?
And for the record don't fucking denigrate cooks like that, it makes you sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.

Because he doesn't. FTR, my last job was a line cook (literally minimum wage). Still had all that calculus and shit under my belt, and I was literally at the bottom of the totem pole when I left, despite having the most experience.

You have an over-simplistic view of it.
You know why I won't get moved up to manager to where I work despite being one of the highest paid people there?
Because I have absolutely no desire to be in the industry I'm in long-term.

That's your own fault then. Not capitalism's fault you keep switching industries.

Not our fault capitalism expects us to live meaningless, shitty lives in an unfulfilling career for the rest of our lives.

What you 'need' to be and what you 'are' are two different things, you understand this yes?
And for the record don't fucking denigrate cooks like that, it makes you sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.

Fast food which I worked as a teenager which I can say anyone can do.

Sure, but that doesn't mean those who do it don't deserve to take satisfaction in their work, don't deserve to earn enough to support themselves and their family, etc.

[Grenartia]

Love how you equate cooks and cleaners to mindless idiots. Absolutely love it.

It's an entry level job made for people to climb higher. It's not supposed to require intelligence.

Ignoring the impossibility of climbing very high up that pyramid, what happens to those who get pushed off by the "successful" people? Are they supposed to rot?

They exist because workers do not innovate and because the natural hierarchy establish with human nature. Ask in the classroom why do some achieve while others fail. Competition breeds innovation. Some may fail but overall it's lead to a system where it has lead to better living conditions. Rather have some miserable than everyone miserable. Just because you aren't earn millions of dollars does not mean you are oppressed.

Wow it's almost like there's entire departments of people who's job is too come up with ideas to make the company better.
I'm pretty sure they don't make millions every year.

Also, speaking as one of said workers, every idea I suggest to improve the way things are gets shot down by the managers above me. Not my fault I'm not "innovating" if I'm not allowed to innovate.

They exist because workers do not innovate and because the natural hierarchy establish with human nature. Ask in the classroom why do some achieve while others fail. Competition breeds innovation. Some may fail but overall it's lead to a system where it has lead to better living conditions. Rather have some miserable than everyone miserable. Just because you aren't earn millions of dollars does not mean you are oppressed.

Workers don't innovate? What an utter crock of shit. And your "natural hierarchy" has people inheriting their fathers' (or mothers') fortunes and continuing to live rich without innovation.

Better living conditions have been achieved because workers fought and died for them, not because of the free fuckin' market mate. Go do yourself a favor and learn about America's Gilded Age and labor strikes.

This. ^

If, after doing that, you still have no fucking idea of the conditions leading up to the Pullman strike, you haven't read enough.

I'm starting to think that Australias's vision of capitalism is really some kind of new aristocracy where the ignorant plebs can all fuck off.

With added bonus weirdness in that Australias seems to think of himself as one of the plebs.

Economic Uncle Tom.

I should throw this out there that one of the biggest 'Captains of Industry' in American history Henry Ford strongly espoused that mass-production of inexpensive goods coupled with good wages for workers lead to prosperity for EVERYONE.
And he was pretty spot-on.

Holy fucking shitballs, Batman! Its almost as if basic math says that a low cost of living plus relatively high wages means more people have more money to buy more things!

It's called economics. Learn it.

the 'Im 14 12 and have read 10 pages of hayek Atlas Shrugged" starter pack

Phicks'd.

[War Gears]

Its ok as long as they're over the age of consent and are ok with being violated.

Kinky.

* Degenerate.

I have been considering starting a left-wing militia.

Less a straight up survivalist insurgency cell and more... Civil defense/social club/motorcycle club.

AK-104's. AK-104's as far as the eye can see. And denim jackets.

I'd start my own commune if I had the people & resources.

[Grenartia]

With added bonus weirdness in that Australias seems to think of himself as one of the plebs.

I'm an accountant who started as a fast food cook. I work on an internship and I worked up to this point with shit jobs.

A computer can literally do your job. Don't come crying to me when the bourgeois and the ruling elite inevitably replace you with a computer.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

* Degenerate.

Very degenerate.

[Korouse]

With added bonus weirdness in that Australias seems to think of himself as one of the plebs.

I'm an accountant who started as a fast food cook. I work on an internship and I worked up to this point with shit jobs.

Capitalism won't be the one to give a shit about you once a recession takes that all away. Remember that.

[Zakuvia]

I'm an accountant who started as a fast food cook. I work on an internship and I worked up to this point with shit jobs.

Capitalism won't be the one to give a shit about you once a recession takes that all away. Remember that.

Fanatical capitalists think that the 'magic of the markets' is some sort of actual magic that will protect them like a talisman when the boom-bust cycle invariable goes to the latter. I'm a capitalist myself, but by no means a dogmatist.

[Saiwania]

Hungary has had a 99% drop in illegal immigration since they finished the construction of their border fence.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/09 ... -per-cent/
https://hotair.com/archives/2017/09/17/ ... ration-99/

Now, so far as the "overstaying visa" problem goes, my proposal is this- simply don't give these people visas. Take note of the countries which have the most visa over-stayers and preemptively don't allow in anyone from those countries.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Hungary has had a 99% drop in illegal immigration since they finished the construction of their border fence.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/09 ... -per-cent/
https://hotair.com/archives/2017/09/17/ ... ration-99/

Now, so far as the "overstaying visa" problem goes, my proposal is this- simply don't give these people visas. Take note of the countries which have the most visa over-stayers and preemptively don't allow in anyone from those countries.

*screeches angrily in Merkel*

[Ramune and Chocolate]

Hungary has had a 99% drop in illegal immigration since they finished the construction of their border fence.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/09 ... -per-cent/
https://hotair.com/archives/2017/09/17/ ... ration-99/

Now, so far as the "overstaying visa" problem goes, my proposal is this- simply don't give these people visas. Take note of the countries which have the most visa over-stayers and preemptively don't allow in anyone from those countries.

Abolishing the entire idea of "illegal immigration" will be ideal.

[Victoriala II]

Slavery goes against free market ideals.

Absolutely wrong. The only thing capitalism cares about is pure, unadulterated profit. And what better way to maximize profit than by utilizing unpaid labor?

fHHHixed

[War Gears]

Absolutely wrong. The only thing the free market cares about is pure, unadulterated profit. And what better way to maximize profit than by utilizing unpaid labor?

If that were the case, why was abolitionism primarily spearheaded by the bourgeois historically? Especially here in the US, where the Civil War could be seen as a class war between the feudalistic planter oligarchy and the Northern industrial bourgeoisie?

[Australias (Ancient)]

I'm an accountant who started as a fast food cook. I work on an internship and I worked up to this point with shit jobs.

A computer can literally do your job. Don't come crying to me when the bourgeois and the ruling elite inevitably replace you with a computer.

I can retrain with the money I have saved to another job or hopefully be high enough in a company it won't matter.

I'm an accountant who started as a fast food cook. I work on an internship and I worked up to this point with shit jobs.

Capitalism won't be the one to give a shit about you once a recession takes that all away. Remember that.

Capitalism gave me the job in the first place and I can list my experiences to find another jobs with hard work and actually job networking it won't be difficult to find a job

[Torsiedelle]

It seems to be providing a majority of the people in the world with jobs, food, electricity, water etc. It seems to be doing better than what communism ever has done. I mean I can't watch wrestling and read my Spiderman comics in North Korea.

I live in America, and don't make enough to pay to watch wrestling and buy comics, much less actually support myself. Checkmate.

I mean, America is so great. Capitalism is so great! That's why my parents were so free and privileged to work two jobs each and still make just under $22,000 a year while being told that they made too much money and were unable to get any form of healthcare or assistance and often nearly had their only car taken! Meanwhile, store managers and bureaucrats can afford brand new cars and somehow get food stamps and health care.

Nah, I've been pretty adamant since I was young enough to read that I'd rather fight for Socialism.

I have been considering starting a left-wing militia.

Less a straight up survivalist insurgency cell and more... Civil defense/social club/motorcycle club.

AK-104's. AK-104's as far as the eye can see. And denim jackets.

> Not AKM's, Green uniforms, and little red books.

Sad!

[Torrocca]

A computer can literally do your job. Don't come crying to me when the bourgeois and the ruling elite inevitably replace you with a computer.

I can retrain with the money I have saved to another job or hopefully be high enough in a company it won't matter.

Capitalism won't be the one to give a shit about you once a recession takes that all away. Remember that.

Capitalism gave me the job in the first place and I can list my experiences to find another jobs with hard work and actually job networking it won't be difficult to find a job

>Implying you couldn't get that same job in a non-capitalist economy

wew laddie

[Sanctissima]

It's the general historical consensus. You're free to argue otherwise, but academia is not on your side.

In terms of Communism's likelihood of success, I feel compelled to point out literally every Socialist revolution ever. It's been tried dozens of times, and has often resulted in nominally Socialist regimes. If your argument is that somehow, if precisely the correct conditions are achieved so that "true" Socialism can be achieved, I daresay you're deliberately ignoring it's exceedingly lengthy list of failures and holding onto a die-hard belief that it will one day all work out.

Good luck with that.

bruv Fukuyama's thesis was western consensus pretty much through the 90's and even a bit into the 00's
History is a fickle thing to predict with accuracy over long periods, whether historical projections a la fukuyama liberalism or orthodox marxism.

I don't buy into "The End of History" either, but it stands to reason that future Communist regimes will go down the same route as their predecessors, simply due to probability and practically every past historical precedent. The ideology has not resulted in successful states, and this is unlikely to change in the future.

[Sanctissima]

1. "Not real Communism Socialism"

I see you're going even further down the Far-Left rabbit hole now. How lovely.

2. And you're factually incorrect. Not every Socialist state in history was a puppet of the USSR. Albania, Yugoslavia, Zimbabwe, and many others were either independent or firmly in the PRC's bloc.

3. So what's your point, exactly? That not only has no country in the history of mankind ever been Communist, but they also haven't been Socialist either? 4. Alright, let's assume that's the case. So all the dozens of successful revolutions of the 20th century that saw Far-Left regimes come to power were never Socialist, even though that's certainly what they tried to be. 5. Ergo, Socialism is an unachievable pipe dream that destroys economies and results in the deaths of millions, all for nothing. And Communism is even moreso.

6. Thank you for successfully refuting your own ideology. Please help yourself to a boobie prize.

1. If you can actually refute it, feel free to do so. But I know you can't, so don't even bother.

2. *ahem* The PRC was built from the same mold as the USSR, and likewise, built its puppet states in its own image, as the USSR itself did. The Sino-Soviet split did nothing to change that.

3. Precisely.

4. You can't even argue that they attempted to be socialist, because it would've been so fucking easy to implement it, that if they were actually trying to, they'd have done it.

5. Only in the same way that growing vegetables in a garden is an unachievable pipe dream. If you don't control the pests, and don't weed the plot, and don't trim the trees growing nearby, of course you won't be able to harvest anything.

6. *yawn* Next time you do a shitty job "refuting" my arguments, please don't attack strawmen, and do something that actually challenges my intellect. I literally could have refuted your so-called "refutation" in my sleep.

1. Depends how pedantic you want to be about "workers owning the means of production". While they were both ultimately planned economies (hence having an overarching state in control), both the USSR and PRC pre-Deng Xiaoping focused heavily on collectivization. In fact, Maoist China went so nuts over communal ownership of industry that it set up small steel foundries in peoples' backyards.

Regardless, an example of a Socialist system that remained ideologically pure was the Paris Commune, and that didn't work out so well for the little failed state seeing as how it only lasted for slightly more than a month.

2. The PRC was so radical it considered Kruschev a revisionist. Sure, it was of the same basic Marxist mold, but they took it quite a bit further than even some of the die-hard Stalinists were willing to go.

3. Refer to point #1.

4. They did try. One of Stalin's first priorities was collectivizing the USSR's farms. It resulted in dekulakization and a massive famine leading to the Holodomor and the deaths of millions. Needless to say, they took a slightly more nuanced approach to Socialism after that.

5. If you steal someone's garden, kill all the plants and replace them with weeds, then blame the previous owner for leaving you with a garden full of weeds, you've got issues.

6. "I'm so smart, look at me! In fact, I'm so smart that I don't even have to refute any of your arguments and simply resort to calling them strawmen. Teehee!"

[Tekeristan]

Automation is really going to hurt.

[Proctopeo]

Automation is really going to hurt.

I can't wait for the singularity, as long as everything stays pretty much the same.