Left-Wing Discussion Thread II: Behind 700,000 Bunkers

[MERIZoC]

An ordinary man with a formula fights to change the society. Does he succeed?

This but it's Jason Unruhe

[Collatis]

"There is no democracy without socialism, and no socialism without democracy."
- Rosa Luxemburg

Ignoring numerous non-socialist democracies and numerous undemocratic socialist regimes (and no, I don't just mean Soviet states - Makhno and the Catalonian states were both repressive as well).

The argument is that true democracy cannot be achieved without economic democracy as well as political. The same can be said for a democratic economy alongside an undemocratic political system.

[War Gears]

If that were the case, why was abolitionism primarily spearheaded by the bourgeois historically? Especially here in the US, where the Civil War could be seen as a class war between the feudalistic planter oligarchy and the Northern industrial bourgeoisie?

Because popular opinion had turned against slavery, and so the maximization of profit began to be offset by the loss of profit from people not buying goods produced with slave labor (primarily cash crops). Recall that anti-abolitionism (and indeed, slavery in general) was principally an upper class endeavor anyways. The average southerner had no slaves, and the ruling elite had been responsible for the implementation of slavery in the first place.

The planter aristocracy were not bourgeois, they were an agrarian semi-feudal class who had little in common socially or economically with the industrial capitalist class called bourgeoisie. There is no generic "ruling elite" or upper class.

While the amount of slave owners in the whole United States is estimated at 8%, the percentage is much higher when you look at the individual states (Mississipi being the highest at 49%).

[Tekeristan]

Because popular opinion had turned against slavery, and so the maximization of profit began to be offset by the loss of profit from people not buying goods produced with slave labor (primarily cash crops). Recall that anti-abolitionism (and indeed, slavery in general) was principally an upper class endeavor anyways. The average southerner had no slaves, and the ruling elite had been responsible for the implementation of slavery in the first place.

The planter aristocracy were not bourgeois, they were an agrarian semi-feudal class who had little in common socially or economically with the industrial capitalist class called bourgeoisie. There is no generic "ruling elite" or upper class.

While the amount of slave owners in the whole United States is estimated at 8%, the percentage is much higher when you look at the individual states (Mississipi being the highest at 49%).

I'm currently going through some high-intensity history course, and at the moment we're raking over the formation of the States.

You can see the foundations of the Confederacy laid in the very foundation of many of the southern states. They even had a much larger aristocratic base at their formation. I find it fascinating.
Were the "Great Planters" the ruling group in their area? Yea, without a doubt. Prestige, social influence, and wealth. The gap between them and the next group, the small farmers, most of whom lacked any slaves, was significant. This gap between the top and mid was noticeably smaller in areas of the north.

[Sanctissima]

They simply needed to dig in their heels and fight it out. If Salazar managed it in Portugal under worse circumstances, I'm sure the French could have pulled it off as well.

I relent on the point of the Franco-Prussian War. You are correct.

And yes, Commies always get the cross. It's just... postponed, in some cases. Even De Gaulle was smart enough to gradually politically disenfranchise the Maquis when he got in power.

but the colonial empire of Portugal ended with coup after coup and 40% of the national budget going towards fighting in Africa. It seems that continuing to fight fucked them over more than it helped. Perhaps Salazar should have just gave em independence?
Well sure but the PCF still ended up getting an uncomfortably large share of the vote. 20% is a lot a country with like 20 different left parties.

Because the root causes of the rebellions were never addressed, seeing as how Portuguese Angola and Mozambique were virtual slave colonies.

Still, didn't stop the Portuguese military from consistently kicking rebel ass right up until the Carnation Revolution brought a bunch of pacifists to power. Salazar's mistake was not reviewing bad colonial policies, but militarily he made the right choice. Portugal had an actual empire with its African possessions and was relevant on the international stage. Now it's just an irrelevant little bloated welfare state on the edge of the Iberian peninsula.

And I'd say it's more of a testament to the strength of Salazar and the Estado Novo that despite dumping mass amounts of financial resources into their colonial wars, Portugal was still the fastest growing economy in Europe during their tenure. Which is quite the accomplishment, considering how Salazar inherited what was a failed state in the 1930's.

[The Eternal Aulus]

Who else think Rojava is /ourcountry/ here?

[Torsiedelle]

Who else think Rojava is /ourcountry/ here?

Rojava is cool, even if I'm a fan of Assad.

Kurds are based. Also, popping ISIS all day.

[The Eternal Aulus]

Who else think Rojava is /ourcountry/ here?

Rojava is cool, even if I'm a fan of Assad.

Kurds are based. Also, popping ISIS all day.

And it is certainly interesting to see how Rojava will develop.

[Proctopeo]

Who else think Rojava is /ourcountry/ here?

I want more flags and more borders, so I don't mind it. Looks like their civil rights record is better than much to most of the ME so far, anyway.

[Badger Industries]

Who else think Rojava is /ourcountry/ here?

Ocalan's ideas of libertarian municipalism and direct democracy are pretty cool. Rojava isn't socialist yet, though - its current constitution protects property rights, but it utilises private property in such a way that it benefits all Rojavans, as does its government structure. IMO Rojava's biggest chance of actually achieving democratic confederalism would require it to be fully independent.

[Trotskylvania]

Who else think Rojava is /ourcountry/ here?

Ocalan's ideas of libertarian municipalism and direct democracy are pretty cool. Rojava isn't socialist yet, though - its current constitution protects property rights, but it utilises private property in such a way that it benefits all Rojavans, as does its government structure. IMO Rojava's biggest chance of actually achieving democratic confederalism would require it to be fully independent.

It's not going to become socialist anytime soon, it's a national liberation social democracy on its good days. No enclave can isolate itself from the capitalist world market, so the idea that Rojava can be socialist without their being an international revolution against capital is a fairy tale.

[Sanctissima]

Rojava is cool, even if I'm a fan of Assad.

Kurds are based. Also, popping ISIS all day.

And it is certainly interesting to see how Rojava will develop.

Oh, I doubt there's much of a future for Rojava. Both the Turks and Ba'athists are hostile to its very existence, and considering how no other power really gives a shit (or at least, doesn't care enough to intervene in any substantial manner), I'd say it's only a matter of time before the little country is crushed.

[The East Marches II]

And it is certainly interesting to see how Rojava will develop.

Oh, I doubt there's much of a future for Rojava. Both the Turks and Ba'athists Persian backed traitors are hostile to its very existence, and considering how no other power really gives a shit (or at least, doesn't care enough to intervene in any substantial manner), I'd say it's only a matter of time before the little country is crushed.

I fixed it for you, no real Ba'athist would accept help from Iran. Saddam weeps at your suggestion.

[Sanctissima]

Oh, I doubt there's much of a future for Rojava. Both the Turks and Ba'athists Persian backed traitors are hostile to its very existence, and considering how no other power really gives a shit (or at least, doesn't care enough to intervene in any substantial manner), I'd say it's only a matter of time before the little country is crushed.

I fixed it for you, no real Ba'athist would accept help from Iran. Saddam weeps at your suggestion.

Oy vey, what have I done? I accept my punishment of ten lashes for insulting our glorious leader.

I gotta ask though TEM, in all seriousness, what is the reason for your obsession with the man? He wasn't a particularly great military strategist, was tacitly Socialist and betrayed the US for stupid reasons. He was no Uncle Pinochet.

[Victoriala II]

Who else think Rojava is /ourcountry/ here?

GOING HARD FOR BIJI WIJI BASED APO BB

[The East Marches II]

I fixed it for you, no real Ba'athist would accept help from Iran. Saddam weeps at your suggestion.

Oy vey, what have I done? I accept my punishment of ten lashes for insulting our glorious leader.

I gotta ask though TEM, in all seriousness, what is the reason for your obsession with the man? He wasn't a particularly great military strategist, was tacitly Socialist and betrayed the US for stupid reasons. He was no Uncle Pinochet.

He was Ａ　Ｅ　Ｓ　Ｔ　Ｈ　Ｅ　Ｔ　Ｉ　Ｃ

Thats all the reason anybody ever needs.

[Sanctissima]

Oy vey, what have I done? I accept my punishment of ten lashes for insulting our glorious leader.

I gotta ask though TEM, in all seriousness, what is the reason for your obsession with the man? He wasn't a particularly great military strategist, was tacitly Socialist and betrayed the US for stupid reasons. He was no Uncle Pinochet.

He was Ａ　Ｅ　Ｓ　Ｔ　Ｈ　Ｅ　Ｔ　Ｉ　Ｃ

Thats all the reason anybody ever needs.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I fixed it for you, no real Ba'athist would accept help from Iran. Saddam weeps at your suggestion.

Oy vey, what have I done? I accept my punishment of ten lashes for insulting our glorious leader.

I gotta ask though TEM, in all seriousness, what is the reason for your obsession with the man? He wasn't a particularly great military strategist, was tacitly Socialist and betrayed the US for stupid reasons. He was no Uncle Pinochet.

First of all, in Arab Socialism (Baathism) socialism doesn't refer to the economic theories or system of socialism, but rather to the belief that social harmony is ideal, and that the different groups in society should come together to advocate for their common good. This is why some Baathist propaganda will show the leader of the country with Imams, Christian bishops, and other religious leaders doing something like nurturing a tree together.

Baathism stood in stark opposition to Islamism; While Baathism was indeed socially conservative, it promoted religious pluralism and toleration for religious minorities as being a traditional part of Arab society. As such, Baathism represented the last Middle Eastern ideology to deliberately seek to incorporate Christians into its ideological support base (fitting, as the intellectual tradition was founded by Micheal Aflaq, an Orthodox Christian).

[Improved werpland]

Oy vey, what have I done? I accept my punishment of ten lashes for insulting our glorious leader.

I gotta ask though TEM, in all seriousness, what is the reason for your obsession with the man? He wasn't a particularly great military strategist, was tacitly Socialist and betrayed the US for stupid reasons. He was no Uncle Pinochet.

First of all, in Arab Socialism (Baathism) socialism doesn't refer to the economic theories or system of socialism, but rather to the belief that social harmony is ideal, and that the different groups in society should come together to advocate for their common good. This is why some Baathist propaganda will show the leader of the country with Imams, Christian bishops, and other religious leaders doing something like nurturing a tree together.

Baathism stood in stark opposition to Islamism; While Baathism was indeed socially conservative, it promoted religious pluralism and toleration for religious minorities as being a traditional part of Arab society. As such, Baathism represented the last Middle Eastern ideology to deliberately seek to incorporate Christians into its ideological support base (fitting, as the intellectual tradition was founded by Micheal Aflaq, an Orthodox Christian).

Doesn't work very well though, you must admit. A great demonstration could be when Mesut Yilmaz (former liberal prime minister of Turkey/member of an extremely well assimilated Armenian sub-group) poked out Hafez's eyes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/191228.stm

Political liberalism and ethnic homogeneity is superior. :^)

[United Muscovite Nations]

First of all, in Arab Socialism (Baathism) socialism doesn't refer to the economic theories or system of socialism, but rather to the belief that social harmony is ideal, and that the different groups in society should come together to advocate for their common good. This is why some Baathist propaganda will show the leader of the country with Imams, Christian bishops, and other religious leaders doing something like nurturing a tree together.

Baathism stood in stark opposition to Islamism; While Baathism was indeed socially conservative, it promoted religious pluralism and toleration for religious minorities as being a traditional part of Arab society. As such, Baathism represented the last Middle Eastern ideology to deliberately seek to incorporate Christians into its ideological support base (fitting, as the intellectual tradition was founded by Micheal Aflaq, an Orthodox Christian).

Doesn't work very well though, you must admit. A great demonstration could be when Mesut Yilmaz (former liberal prime minister of Turkey/member of an extremely well assimilated Armenian sub-group) poked out Hafez's eyes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/191228.stm

Political liberalism and ethnic homogeneity is superior. :^)

That must be why Turkey is so liberal today.

[Improved werpland]

Doesn't work very well though, you must admit. A great demonstration could be when Mesut Yilmaz (former liberal prime minister of Turkey/member of an extremely well assimilated Armenian sub-group) poked out Hafez's eyes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/191228.stm

Political liberalism and ethnic homogeneity is superior. :^)

That must be why Turkey is so liberal today.

Welp, the reason Turkey isn't liberal today is the reason it's going downhill.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/en/originals/2017/09/turkey-economy-big-business-benefit-emergency-law.amp.html

Still, over 30 million people out of a population of 79 million in Turkey are estimated to be on government assistance. In July, the Confederation of Turkish Trade Unions set the poverty limit for a family of four at 4,878 Turkish liras ($1,419) a month. The average salary for government employees, such as teachers and police officers, is about $960 per month, while a specialized doctor makes barely above the poverty line at $1,482. These numbers indicate that the economic miracle of Turkish growth is not being reflected in the real purchasing power of the Turks.

If they had stuck with people like Yilmaz Syria could be a part of Turkey at this point. Even then, the only people who were competent at running the economy in the AKP were Gulenists, who at least pretended to be liberal. Erdogan's faction are made up of obsessed idiots, who would rather waste time writing blogs about their leader named after mediocre movies.

[Sanctissima]

Oy vey, what have I done? I accept my punishment of ten lashes for insulting our glorious leader.

I gotta ask though TEM, in all seriousness, what is the reason for your obsession with the man? He wasn't a particularly great military strategist, was tacitly Socialist and betrayed the US for stupid reasons. He was no Uncle Pinochet.

First of all, in Arab Socialism (Baathism) socialism doesn't refer to the economic theories or system of socialism, but rather to the belief that social harmony is ideal, and that the different groups in society should come together to advocate for their common good. This is why some Baathist propaganda will show the leader of the country with Imams, Christian bishops, and other religious leaders doing something like nurturing a tree together.

Baathism stood in stark opposition to Islamism; While Baathism was indeed socially conservative, it promoted religious pluralism and toleration for religious minorities as being a traditional part of Arab society. As such, Baathism represented the last Middle Eastern ideology to deliberately seek to incorporate Christians into its ideological support base (fitting, as the intellectual tradition was founded by Micheal Aflaq, an Orthodox Christian).

Eh, the ideology still calls for wealth redistribution and an economic system that's doesn't stop too far of what could be considered a planned economy.

It might not be a spitting image of Marxist Socialism, but it still definitely adapted some of the economic theories and is far more than just a belief in "social harmony". Hell, one of the few reasons Aflaq was so adamantly opposed to his ideas being linked to Communism is because the French Communist Party supported the Mandate of Syria. The only major ideological differences are that Aflaq wasn't an internationalist by any stretch of the imagination, and he didn't have a knee-jerk reactionary disdain of private property.

[Serkia]

This is probably one of the biggest pieces of propaganda I've seen.

[The Eternal Aulus]

This is probably one of the biggest pieces of propaganda I've seen.

Yeah no mate

[Genivaria]

This is probably one of the biggest pieces of propaganda I've seen.

Nice touch with the tank commander wearing gasmasks to dehumanize them.