Left-Wing Discussion Thread II: Behind 700,000 Bunkers

[War Gears]

Not really, 1. nationalism isn't exclusively right-wing and 2. NazBol is mainly uniting the Bolshevik political system with nationalism.

1. Perhaps, but you generally find it more on the right than the left.

2. So, basically, exactly what I said.

That depends on the country in question.

"Bolshevik political system" and "Stalinist aesthetic" are not the same thing.

[MERIZoC]

Wow, yes, give me more of that 9th grade political analysis.

If you defend American empire, you are inherently conservative or reactionary. The left is about challenging existing power structures, seeking to upend the status quo.

America becoming a giant, world-spanning empire would certainly upend the status quo. Quite a revolutionary idea, I would say; America spanning every sea and shining sea, instead of just between the Pacific and the Atlantic. You need to be less liberal with your definitions here, Meri.

Besides, you'd probably need to make adjustments to the existing power structure for it to work out anyway.

lol ok

[War Gears]

Anti-intellectualism and irrationality are stupid,

To quote a fine upstanding fellow -

"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."

and vitalism is blatantly unscientific. Fuck that horseshit.

Vitalism refers to numerous things besides the outdated scientific theory. In this case, the sentiment that human will, creativity, and sentiment were superior to reason.

[Proctopeo]

America becoming a giant, world-spanning empire would certainly upend the status quo. Quite a revolutionary idea, I would say; America spanning every sea and shining sea, instead of just between the Pacific and the Atlantic. You need to be less liberal with your definitions here, Meri.

Besides, you'd probably need to make adjustments to the existing power structure for it to work out anyway.

lol ok

no response.txt

[MERIZoC]

lol ok

no response.txt

I'm not gonna bother engaging with idiotic posts *shrug*

[Proctopeo]

no response.txt

I'm not gonna bother engaging with idiotic posts *shrug*

C'mon, I engage with your posts a lot. We might just have different levels of tolerance for idiocy

[Herador]

I'm not gonna bother engaging with idiotic posts *shrug*

C'mon, I engage with your posts a lot. We might just have different levels of tolerance for idiocy

Sick burn, bruh

[Australias (Ancient)]

Do you want a list of not corrupt capitalist leaders? There are lots of them.

>inb4 Bhatcher

ok this is a bad take I admit

Thatcher? I was going to say Robert Menzies as a prime example of a not corrupt capitalist

[Australias (Ancient)]

Do you want a list of not corrupt capitalist leaders? There are lots of them.

we got a ancap everyone. did someone violate your NAP or are you a snow flake.

I'm an authoritarian capitalist who supports minarchisms, a small state with a big defence force to defend capitalism, sedition to the state and criticism of capitalism is illegal.

[MERIZoC]

we got a ancap everyone. did someone violate your NAP or are you a snow flake.

I'm an authoritarian capitalist who supports minarchisms, a small state with a big defence force to defend capitalism, sedition to the state and criticism of capitalism is illegal.

that violates at least 16 NAPs

[Sanctissima]

Ah yes, do tell me more about how torturing union leaders to death was "consolidating power for the people".

Or how firing the country's teachers en masse for "counter-revolutionary behaviour" was totes justified. Gotta look out for the people after all, otherwise they might be exposed to the wrong kind of thoughts. Damn bourgeois teachers and their counter-revolutionary ideas.

Wew. Not even your NATO-funded organizations claim he ordered teachers to be killed. Get real, bud, you're a joke right now. The right-wing always likes to cry about law and order but even in an unstable African nation they'll bitch about the one time a strike was broken because it's socialist.

Literally on the Wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sankara#Human_rights_violations

This isn't that hard, do please try harder.

[Sanctissima]

> be given god knows how many opportunities to prove your ideology can work
>fuck up every single time
"god damn capitalists. bourgeois pigs conspiring against me."

Fuck, you're as bad for conspiracy theories as the Nazis. You've only replaced the Jews with Capitalists as the evil boogeyman who's responsible for all your woes.

Even if one accepts the USSR was actually socialist (which it wasn't, because it never met the definition of socialism), that was the only time. Every other so-called socialist state in history was at one time, a puppet of the USSR.

Tell me, when in human history, has a society ever had the means of production owned by the workers over the long term? It certainly never happened in the USSR or its puppets.

So how in God's name can an ideology "fuck up every time it was given an opportunity to work" when it was never given an opportunity to work in the first place?

"Not real Communism Socialism"

I see you're going even further down the Far-Left rabbit hole now. How lovely.

And you're factually incorrect. Not every Socialist state in history was a puppet of the USSR. Albania, Yugoslavia, Zimbabwe, and many others were either independent or firmly in the PRC's bloc.

So what's your point, exactly? That not only has no country in the history of mankind ever been Communist, but they also haven't been Socialist either? Alright, let's assume that's the case. So all the dozens of successful revolutions of the 20th century that saw Far-Left regimes come to power were never Socialist, even though that's certainly what they tried to be. Ergo, Socialism is an unachievable pipe dream that destroys economies and results in the deaths of millions, all for nothing. And Communism is even moreso.

Thank you for successfully refuting your own ideology. Please help yourself to a boobie prize.

[MERIZoC]

http://i.imgur.com/L20UL6i.jpg

[Improved werpland]

Let me pull you to the side and inform you of the concept of the "economic left-right axis". It'll be enlightening for sure.

Wow, yes, give me more of that 9th grade political analysis.

If you defend American empire, you are inherently conservative or reactionary. The left is about challenging existing power structures, seeking to upend the status quo.

Okay, so I guess you want to return to the state of things before American hegemony, where there was lots of death and warfare, and which is slowly coming back?

Edit: Improved prose.

[Genivaria]

http://i.imgur.com/L20UL6i.jpg

I think a part of me died reading this.

[Torrocca]

Even if one accepts the USSR was actually socialist (which it wasn't, because it never met the definition of socialism), that was the only time. Every other so-called socialist state in history was at one time, a puppet of the USSR.

Tell me, when in human history, has a society ever had the means of production owned by the workers over the long term? It certainly never happened in the USSR or its puppets.

So how in God's name can an ideology "fuck up every time it was given an opportunity to work" when it was never given an opportunity to work in the first place?

"Not real Communism Socialism"

I see you're going even further down the Far-Left rabbit hole now. How lovely.

And you're factually incorrect. Not every Socialist state in history was a puppet of the USSR. Albania, Yugoslavia, Zimbabwe, and many others were either independent or firmly in the PRC's bloc.

So what's your point, exactly? That not only has no country in the history of mankind ever been Communist, but they also haven't been Socialist either? Alright, let's assume that's the case. So all the dozens of successful revolutions of the 20th century that saw Far-Left regimes come to power were never Socialist, even though that's certainly what they tried to be. Ergo, Socialism is an unachievable pipe dream that destroys economies and results in the deaths of millions, all for nothing. And Communism is even moreso.

Thank you for successfully refuting your own ideology. Please help yourself to a boobie prize.

I'll take, "Authoritarian Authoritizing Left Ideologies," for $500, Alex.

If you knew one lick of either Communism or Socialism you'd clearly know neither calls for a dictator like Stalin or Mao (in fact, they both call for the opposite, that being the rule of the people directly - all of the people) and wouldn't even be having this debate.

[Sanctissima]

"Not real Communism Socialism"

I see you're going even further down the Far-Left rabbit hole now. How lovely.

And you're factually incorrect. Not every Socialist state in history was a puppet of the USSR. Albania, Yugoslavia, Zimbabwe, and many others were either independent or firmly in the PRC's bloc.

So what's your point, exactly? That not only has no country in the history of mankind ever been Communist, but they also haven't been Socialist either? Alright, let's assume that's the case. So all the dozens of successful revolutions of the 20th century that saw Far-Left regimes come to power were never Socialist, even though that's certainly what they tried to be. Ergo, Socialism is an unachievable pipe dream that destroys economies and results in the deaths of millions, all for nothing. And Communism is even moreso.

Thank you for successfully refuting your own ideology. Please help yourself to a boobie prize.

I'll take, "Authoritarian Authoritizing Left Ideologies," for $500, Alex.

If you knew one lick of either Communism or Socialism you'd clearly know neither calls for a dictator like Stalin or Mao (in fact, they both call for the opposite, that being the rule of the people directly - all of the people) and wouldn't even be having this debate.

Like what, the Paris Commune?

That particular "revolution" didn't work out so well, now did it?

Fact is, your ideology only ever churns out weak rebel governments that are prone to infighting and can't defend themselves, or semi-functional countries that only survive because a strongman seizes the reigns of power and makes it so. So yes, tell me all about the glories of Socialism. I'm sure Marx would be very proud.

[Torrocca]

I'll take, "Authoritarian Authoritizing Left Ideologies," for $500, Alex.

If you knew one lick of either Communism or Socialism you'd clearly know neither calls for a dictator like Stalin or Mao (in fact, they both call for the opposite, that being the rule of the people directly - all of the people) and wouldn't even be having this debate.

Like what, the Paris Commune?

That particular "revolution" didn't work out so well, now did it?

Fact is, your ideology only ever churns out weak rebel governments that are prone to infighting and can't defend themselves, or semi-functional countries that only survive because a strongman seizes the reigns of power and makes it so. So yes, tell me all about the glories of Socialism. I'm sure Marx would be very proud.

The fact is, those men didn't represent the ideology once they seized dictatorial status. They destroyed the idea of the revolution for their own gain because, again, the ideologies call for the rule of the people, not the rule of a dictator.

[Collatis]

Fuck, you're as bad for conspiracy theories as the Nazis. You've only replaced the Jews with Capitalists as the evil boogeyman who's responsible for all your woes.

I'm an authoritarian capitalist who supports minarchisms, a small state with a big defence force to defend capitalism, sedition to the state and criticism of capitalism is illegal.

"Pro: freedom"

[Genivaria]

So...at what point did we stop talking about actual issues and just start finding ridiculous ways to name-call the 'other side'?

[Sanctissima]

Like what, the Paris Commune?

That particular "revolution" didn't work out so well, now did it?

Fact is, your ideology only ever churns out weak rebel governments that are prone to infighting and can't defend themselves, or semi-functional countries that only survive because a strongman seizes the reigns of power and makes it so. So yes, tell me all about the glories of Socialism. I'm sure Marx would be very proud.

The fact is, those men didn't represent the ideology once they seized dictatorial status. They destroyed the idea of the revolution for their own gain because, again, the ideologies call for the rule of the people, not the rule of a dictator.

Like it or not people like Stalin and Mao still genuinely believed in Socialism and considered themselves Communists.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume every Communist dictator ever wasn't really a Communist and doesn't represent the ideology. Now, how do you explain the shortcomings of Socialist revolutions in consistently producing this result?

[Collatis]

So...at what point did we stop talking about actual issues and just start finding ridiculous ways to name-call the 'other side'?

Pretty sure we've always done this. What's the point of politics if you don't get to insult the other side a bit?

[Proctopeo]

Fuck, you're as bad for conspiracy theories as the Nazis. You've only replaced the Jews with Capitalists as the evil boogeyman who's responsible for all your woes.

I'm an authoritarian capitalist who supports minarchisms, a small state with a big defence force to defend capitalism, sedition to the state and criticism of capitalism is illegal.

"Pro: freedom"

Perhaps it's the type of authoritarianism that only applies to political freedoms?

[Genivaria]

So...at what point did we stop talking about actual issues and just start finding ridiculous ways to name-call the 'other side'?

Pretty sure we've always done this. What's the point of politics if you don't get to insult the other side a bit?

I'm not seeing 'a little bit'.
I'm specifically talking about NSG here.

[Australias (Ancient)]

Fuck, you're as bad for conspiracy theories as the Nazis. You've only replaced the Jews with Capitalists as the evil boogeyman who's responsible for all your woes.

I'm an authoritarian capitalist who supports minarchisms, a small state with a big defence force to defend capitalism, sedition to the state and criticism of capitalism is illegal.

"Pro: freedom"

Economic freedom plus capitalism is freedom.