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Left-Wing Discussion Thread II: Behind 700,000 Bunkers

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Preferred economic system?

Welfare Capitalism
93
23%
Market Socialism
62
15%
Mutualism
10
2%
Syndicalism
40
10%
Communalism
13
3%
State Planning
36
9%
Decentralised Planning
27
7%
Higher Phase Communism
38
9%
Left-wing Market Anarchism
15
4%
Other
67
17%
 
Total votes : 401

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Socialist Women
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Postby Socialist Women » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:30 pm

Great Minarchistan wrote:
Socialist Women wrote:Anarchism is literally without a government and hierarchy. Also Chomsky supports Democratic Socialism not Anarchism. He may have some inspirations from Anarchism, but really he's a democratic socialist like me.
Health and food safety regulations exist for a reason, they keep us safe.


But do we need a State telling us what and not to do? Pretty authoritarian imo.

Yes we do. Otherwise humans would just run around like lawless savages and kill each other. You anarchists are stupid to think that life without a government is "cool" and "edge". Go join the rest of those edgy teenagers in Somalia and see how AMAZING living without a government is. I'm just going to continue living in the civilized world where hopefully my country will be more like Denmark's, and have universal healthcare and a 20$ minimum wage. Unlike all you savages, which want to kill each other. To be honest I don't care if "true anarchy" is left or right, either way it is the stupidest ideology in all of history.
Great Minarchistan wrote:
Socialist Women wrote:Almost all of Denmark's policies would be considered socialist, there fore it is a socialist country.


Might be the 100th time saying that but I don't bother, as long as people learn the difference: Denmark, as well as all of Scandinavia is social-democrat. Social democracy =/= Socialism
DENMARK IS SOCIALIST. FOR THE LAST TIME
Part of the reason you are anarchist, you ate too much expired food

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Uiiop
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Postby Uiiop » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:32 pm

Socialist Women wrote:
Great Minarchistan wrote:
But do we need a State telling us what and not to do? Pretty authoritarian imo.

Yes we do. Otherwise humans would just run around like lawless savages and kill each other. You anarchists are stupid to think that life without a government is "cool" and "edge". Go join the rest of those edgy teenagers in Somalia and see how AMAZING living without a government is. I'm just going to continue living in the civilized world where hopefully my country will be more like Denmark's, and have universal healthcare and a 20$ minimum wage. Unlike all you savages, which want to kill each other. To be honest I don't care if "true anarchy" is left or right, either way it is the stupidest ideology in all of history.
Great Minarchistan wrote:
Might be the 100th time saying that but I don't bother, as long as people learn the difference: Denmark, as well as all of Scandinavia is social-democrat. Social democracy =/= Socialism
DENMARK IS SOCIALIST. FOR THE LAST TIME
Part of the reason you are anarchist, you ate too much expired food

Just asserting your definitions against other people is hardly proof of anything.
Say it until your face is blue but you really have poor arguments for it.

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Italios
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Postby Italios » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:33 pm

Socialist Women wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Some of that is factually wrong, as Olivaero has pointed out.

But I'm more interested in your wider angle here. Do you see being left-wing as a "package deal" where all your ideas must come from the left side of the spectrum? Do particular ideas or positions immediately remove someone from the left even if the overall tendency of the person's beliefs are on that side?
Have you seen mras in real life? Have you?
To answer your your other question, being left wing generally means you want more social equality. Communism puts the state above everything, while everyone else is equally poor. Kind of like a left wing fascism. Unlike communism, socialism puts the focus on social equality for everyone. Almost all of Denmark's policies would be considered socialist, there fore it is a socialist country.

Can we dispel the notion that communism is like "left-wing fascism." Communist and fascist regimes can both have authoritarian elements that are comparable, but the goals of the two are very different.
Last edited by Italios on Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:36 pm

Socialist Women wrote:DENMARK IS SOCIALIST. FOR THE LAST TIME
Part of the reason you are anarchist, you ate too much expired food


1. If it is socialist, show me why they are.

2. If you even knew what is minarchism, you'd understand that it advocates a minimal State, not its absence. Overall, your illiteracy when it comes to ideology is 10/10.
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The Grene Knyght
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Postby The Grene Knyght » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:38 pm

Socialist Women wrote:DENMARK IS SOCIALIST. FOR THE LAST TIME
Part of the reason you are anarchist, you ate too much expired food

Socialism is an economic system whereby the means of production are owned wholly by the community, in whatever form that takes, and rejects the capitalism mode of production. Do you disagree with that definition? Or do you think it applies to Denmark.
Also, I'd hardly call Minarchistan an anarchist lol.
     
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ANTI: Capitalism, Liberalism, nationalism, left-sectarianism.
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Socialist Women wrote:Part of the reason you're an anarchist is because you ate too much expired food.
Claorica wrote:Go burn down Berkeley again.
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Mikelheim
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Postby Mikelheim » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:41 pm

Socialist Women wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Some of that is factually wrong, as Olivaero has pointed out.

But I'm more interested in your wider angle here. Do you see being left-wing as a "package deal" where all your ideas must come from the left side of the spectrum? Do particular ideas or positions immediately remove someone from the left even if the overall tendency of the person's beliefs are on that side?
Have you seen mras in real life? Have you?
Almost all of Denmark's policies would be considered socialist, there fore it is a socialist country.

No, they're a social democracy.
United City States of Oceania wrote:
PaNTuXIa wrote:You think Hillary would've done any better? Besides, last I checked, weren't the leftists the ones who wanted neoliberal globalist bankers in office?

Yes, I do, actually.

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Socialist Women
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Postby Socialist Women » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:45 pm

The Grene Knyght wrote:
Socialist Women wrote:DENMARK IS SOCIALIST. FOR THE LAST TIME
Part of the reason you are anarchist, you ate too much expired food

Socialism is an economic system whereby the means of production are owned wholly by the community, in whatever form that takes, and rejects the capitalism mode of production. Do you disagree with that definition? Or do you think it applies to Denmark.
Also, I'd hardly call Minarchistan an anarchist lol.

Part of the reason you're an anarchist is because you ate too much expired food. Also I meant to quote you the first time.

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Socialist Women
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Postby Socialist Women » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:46 pm

Mikelheim wrote:
Socialist Women wrote:Have you seen mras in real life? Have you?
Almost all of Denmark's policies would be considered socialist, there fore it is a socialist country.

No, they're a social democracy.

How many times do I have to tell you people, DENMARK IS A SOCIALIST COUNTRY

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Mikelheim
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Postby Mikelheim » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:48 pm

Socialist Women wrote:
Mikelheim wrote:No, they're a social democracy.

How many times do I have to tell you people, DENMARK IS A SOCIALIST COUNTRY

They're not - supporting social welfare programs doesn't make someone or a nation socialist.
United City States of Oceania wrote:
PaNTuXIa wrote:You think Hillary would've done any better? Besides, last I checked, weren't the leftists the ones who wanted neoliberal globalist bankers in office?

Yes, I do, actually.

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Uiiop
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Uiiop » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:49 pm

Socialist Women wrote:
Mikelheim wrote:No, they're a social democracy.

How many times do I have to tell you people, DENMARK IS A SOCIALIST COUNTRY

YELLING MY ASSERTIONS MAKES ME MORE RIGHT!
Seriously the rest of thread has almost the same amount of evidence for your claims.
I'd say that because the Chomsky quote is unaddressed.
Isn't a Chomsky a intellectual undercutting your argument?
Last edited by Uiiop on Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Grene Knyght
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Postby The Grene Knyght » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:50 pm

Socialist Women wrote:
The Grene Knyght wrote:Socialism is an economic system whereby the means of production are owned wholly by the community, in whatever form that takes, and rejects the capitalism mode of production. Do you disagree with that definition? Or do you think it applies to Denmark.
Also, I'd hardly call Minarchistan an anarchist lol.

Part of the reason you're an anarchist is because you ate too much expired food. Also I meant to quote you the first time.

If u wanna troll just tell me. I'll pretend to be offended, get all upset, maybe start a flame war, and you can have your ego fed as much as you want. It'll be great.

But if you're ready to have a real conversation, try actually addressing what I said, and stop shiting directly through your monitor and onto mine.
     
[_★_]
(◕‿◕)
PRO: Socialism and Communism, Revolution, Left Unity.
NEUTRAL: Anarchism, ML-ism, reformism (to an extent).
ANTI: Capitalism, Liberalism, nationalism, left-sectarianism.
Portal Nationalist | Proletarian Moralist
Socialist Women wrote:Part of the reason you're an anarchist is because you ate too much expired food.
Claorica wrote:Go burn down Berkeley again.
2015 - x=-8.75, y=-6.56
2016 - x=-8.88, y=-9.54
2017 - x=-9.63, y=-9.90
2018 - x=-9.88, y=-9.23
2019 - x=-10.0, y=-9.90
2020 - x=-10.0, y=-10.0

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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:51 pm

Socialist Women wrote:Go join the rest of those edgy teenagers in Somalia...


I'm sure that there are more people who live in Somalia than teens, and the people responsible for it being the way it is certainly aren't teens.

Somalia is an example of state failure and regression into a sort of feudalism between various warring groups. We (anarchists) don't want state failure but abolition. The two vary greatly. The former has no intentionality to it or organized effort to rebuild societal structures, and thus is prone to being exploited by Islamists and local warlords. The latter is an intentional insurrectionary movement, a social revolution based primarily in changing an economic system (through expropriation), and would work to rebuild afterwards.
Last edited by The New Sea Territory on Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:51 pm

Socialist Women wrote:
The Grene Knyght wrote:Socialism is an economic system whereby the means of production are owned wholly by the community, in whatever form that takes, and rejects the capitalism mode of production. Do you disagree with that definition? Or do you think it applies to Denmark.
Also, I'd hardly call Minarchistan an anarchist lol.

Part of the reason you're an anarchist is because you ate too much expired food. Also I meant to quote you the first time.


It seems like expired food turns people into anarchists. Interesting.

Socialist Women wrote:
Mikelheim wrote:No, they're a social democracy.

How many times do I have to tell you people, DENMARK IS A SOCIALIST COUNTRY


At this point you are just shouting "Denmark is socialist" with no arguments lol.
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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:52 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:
Socialist Women wrote:Go join the rest of those edgy teenagers in Somalia...


I'm sure that there are more people who live in Somalia than teens, and the people responsible for it being the way it is certainly aren't teens.

Somalia is an example of state failure and regression into a sort of feudalism between various warring groups. We (anarchists) don't want state failure but abolition. The two vary greatly. The former has no intentionality to it or organized effort to rebuild societal structures, and thus is prone to being exploited by Islamists and local warlords. The latter is an intentional insurrectionary movement, a social revolution based primarily in changing an economic (expropriation), and would work to rebuild afterwards.


That's not even the funny part, but how he calls me an anarchist implying I dislike anarchy is just fantastic XD
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Mikelheim
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Postby Mikelheim » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:53 pm

Socialist Women wrote:
The Grene Knyght wrote:Socialism is an economic system whereby the means of production are owned wholly by the community, in whatever form that takes, and rejects the capitalism mode of production. Do you disagree with that definition? Or do you think it applies to Denmark.
Also, I'd hardly call Minarchistan an anarchist lol.

Part of the reason you're an anarchist is because you ate too much expired food. Also I meant to quote you the first time.

What?

Aren't socialist countries known for their breadlines?
United City States of Oceania wrote:
PaNTuXIa wrote:You think Hillary would've done any better? Besides, last I checked, weren't the leftists the ones who wanted neoliberal globalist bankers in office?

Yes, I do, actually.

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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:00 pm

Mikelheim wrote:
Socialist Women wrote:Part of the reason you're an anarchist is because you ate too much expired food. Also I meant to quote you the first time.

What?

Aren't socialist countries known for their breadlines?


Nahhhh mate, you are confusing socialist with anarchism. And anything less statist than socialism is straight anarchism to me.
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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:02 pm

Socialist Women wrote:DENMARK IS SOCIALIST. FOR THE LAST TIME

Good, then this should be the last time we tell you Denmark is capitalist.
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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:08 pm

tbh that was one of the few times where I saw both left and right wing united against something
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Northern Davincia
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Postby Northern Davincia » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:29 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:
Socialist Women wrote:Go join the rest of those edgy teenagers in Somalia...


I'm sure that there are more people who live in Somalia than teens, and the people responsible for it being the way it is certainly aren't teens.

Somalia is an example of state failure and regression into a sort of feudalism between various warring groups. We (anarchists) don't want state failure but abolition. The two vary greatly. The former has no intentionality to it or organized effort to rebuild societal structures, and thus is prone to being exploited by Islamists and local warlords. The latter is an intentional insurrectionary movement, a social revolution based primarily in changing an economic system (through expropriation), and would work to rebuild afterwards.

I'd consider Somalia to have many states, operating on the malevolence of warlords within a small surface area.
Great Minarchistan wrote:tbh that was one of the few times where I saw both left and right wing united against something

It's like the Christmas Truce. Beautiful while it lasts, but we'll jump back into the fray eventually.
Last edited by Northern Davincia on Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:01 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
The New Sea Territory wrote:
I'm sure that there are more people who live in Somalia than teens, and the people responsible for it being the way it is certainly aren't teens.

Somalia is an example of state failure and regression into a sort of feudalism between various warring groups. We (anarchists) don't want state failure but abolition. The two vary greatly. The former has no intentionality to it or organized effort to rebuild societal structures, and thus is prone to being exploited by Islamists and local warlords. The latter is an intentional insurrectionary movement, a social revolution based primarily in changing an economic system (through expropriation), and would work to rebuild afterwards.

I'd consider Somalia to have many states, operating on the malevolence of warlords within a small surface area.


Certainly.

The way they got to this situation of many neofeudal states is through the failure of the actual nationstate, Somalia, though. That was my point.
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Socialist Nordia
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Postby Socialist Nordia » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:02 pm

Socialist Women wrote:
Mikelheim wrote:No, they're a social democracy.

How many times do I have to tell you people, DENMARK IS A SOCIALIST COUNTRY

My god, do you realise how bad you are making the centre-left look? You made that same assertion in all caps so many times and are yet to back it up.

In Denmark, as well as all of Scandinavia, wage labour exists, and most industries are owned by private individuals. This goes against socialism by definition. To be socialist, a society must employ social ownership over the means of production. It's not a very hard rule of thumb to remember.

Also, is suggest you edit all your posts demeaning anarchists as stupid, and fast. That'll get you warned or banned around here, especially if done repetitively. I oppose anarchism in all forms, but your critiques are just so bad, and ignore what anarchists actually support. Please, by all means advocate what you're advocating but please do it better.
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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:04 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:
Socialist Women wrote:Go join the rest of those edgy teenagers in Somalia...


I'm sure that there are more people who live in Somalia than teens, and the people responsible for it being the way it is certainly aren't teens.

Somalia is an example of state failure and regression into a sort of feudalism between various warring groups. We (anarchists) don't want state failure but abolition. The two vary greatly. The former has no intentionality to it or organized effort to rebuild societal structures, and thus is prone to being exploited by Islamists and local warlords. The latter is an intentional insurrectionary movement, a social revolution based primarily in changing an economic system (through expropriation), and would work to rebuild afterwards.

It could be argued that a state which allows itself to be abolished has failed.
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Uiiop
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Uiiop » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:09 pm

Geilinor wrote:
The New Sea Territory wrote:
I'm sure that there are more people who live in Somalia than teens, and the people responsible for it being the way it is certainly aren't teens.

Somalia is an example of state failure and regression into a sort of feudalism between various warring groups. We (anarchists) don't want state failure but abolition. The two vary greatly. The former has no intentionality to it or organized effort to rebuild societal structures, and thus is prone to being exploited by Islamists and local warlords. The latter is an intentional insurrectionary movement, a social revolution based primarily in changing an economic system (through expropriation), and would work to rebuild afterwards.

It could be argued that a state which allows itself to be abolished has failed.

Even if you grant that one can still make the argument that the difference in how it happens remains.
Last edited by Uiiop on Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Socialist Women
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Postby Socialist Women » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:28 pm

Look at how AMAZING anarchism is!
Image
Image
Image
Image


Isn't it such an AMAZING ideology!
Last edited by USS Monitor on Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: spoilered large images

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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:35 pm

Socialist Women wrote:Look at how AMAZING anarchism is!

(Image)
(Image)
(Image)
(Image)

Isn't it such an AMAZING ideology!

I agree. However, Socialism isn't any better.
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