Left-Wing Discussion Thread II: Behind 700,000 Bunkers

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I'm not an MRA.

I'm a master baiter, man.

[Conscentia]

I'm a master baiter, man.

From here you looked like the fish.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I'm a master baiter, man.

From here you looked like the fish.

No, I'm a master baiter.

[Catochristoferson]

Why call yourself something which now has an almost universal meaning opposite to what you believe?

Classical Social Democracy is inherently socialist. Post-war SD is pretty much a capitalist system.

There are certain people who insist that there is no difference, and stereotype myself as the latter.

Albeit a very flimsy one.

[Olivaero]

Guys, am I antifa enough now?

Lol at an mra embracing anarchy and communism

And whats the problem with that exactly? I wouldn't describe myself as an MRA but I don't see anything contradictory in being a communist MRA.

[Socialist Women]

No offense meant, but you're not much of a democratic socialist if you think capitalism with welfare and regulation is ideal. And Chomsky is a plain anarchist.

Indeed. And I say this as a Sanders supporter, and classical Social Democrat (i.e., the one person who is stereotyped as thinking such things). Capitalism with welfare and regulation is merely a stepping stone to true socialism.

Socialism has nothing to do with a collectivist USSR style Soviet Dictatorship. And Scandinavian Socialism is in no way a "stepping stone" to communism or anything.

[Socialist Women]

Lol at an mra embracing anarchy and communism

And whats the problem with that exactly? I wouldn't describe myself as an MRA but I don't see anything contradictory in being a communist MRA.

MRA is a right wing ideology, and goes against everything left wing. They Conservatives. Which supposedly goes against communism, despite the fact that communism as actually practiced is actually closer to fascism than anything

[Olivaero]

And whats the problem with that exactly? I wouldn't describe myself as an MRA but I don't see anything contradictory in being a communist MRA.

MRA is a right wing ideology, and goes against everything left wing. They Conservatives. Which supposedly goes against communism, despite the fact that communism as actually practiced is actually closer to fascism than anything

Mens Rights Activists are not inherently right wing. They just disagree with feminism on gender related issues. They absolutely aren't conservatives, the conservative position would be traditional gender roles, whilst MRA's assert non traditional stances, like female on Male rape being a thing that happens. Communsim is also nothing like fascism.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Indeed. And I say this as a Sanders supporter, and classical Social Democrat (i.e., the one person who is stereotyped as thinking such things). Capitalism with welfare and regulation is merely a stepping stone to true socialism.

Socialism has nothing to do with a collectivist USSR style Soviet Dictatorship.

It has everything to do with it.

And Scandinavian Socialism

Scandinavian countries are capitalist.

[Conscentia]

From here you looked like the fish.

No, I'm a master baiter.

You b8 by biting other people's b8, m8?

[Uiiop]

Indeed. And I say this as a Sanders supporter, and classical Social Democrat (i.e., the one person who is stereotyped as thinking such things). Capitalism with welfare and regulation is merely a stepping stone to true socialism.

Socialism has nothing to do with a collectivist USSR style Soviet Dictatorship. And Scandinavian Socialism is in no way a "stepping stone" to communism or anything.

Only in the sense the USSR never got around to it. And depending on what happens any thing can become a "Stone" for anything else depending on your perspective.
I'm still waiting on proof your definitions is the "Intellectual" one BTW.

[Dumb Ideologies]

And whats the problem with that exactly? I wouldn't describe myself as an MRA but I don't see anything contradictory in being a communist MRA.

MRA is a right wing ideology, and goes against everything left wing. They Conservatives. Which supposedly goes against communism, despite the fact that communism as actually practiced is actually closer to fascism than anything

Some of that is factually wrong, as Olivaero has pointed out.

But I'm more interested in your wider angle here. Do you see being left-wing as a "package deal" where all your ideas must come from the left side of the spectrum? Do particular ideas or positions immediately remove someone from the left even if the overall tendency of the person's beliefs are on that side?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

No, I'm a master baiter.

You b8 by biting other people's b8, m8?

No, I'm a mass debater.

[Trotskylvania]

No offense meant, but you're not much of a democratic socialist if you think capitalism with welfare and regulation is ideal. And Chomsky is a plain anarchist.

Indeed. And I say this as a Sanders supporter, and classical Social Democrat (i.e., the one person who is stereotyped as thinking such things). Capitalism with welfare and regulation is merely a stepping stone to true socialism.

They usually call themselves democratic socialists anymore. And even then, the term "classical social democrat" would encompass everyone from the opportunist Ferdinand Lasalle, to the reformist Eduard Bernstein, to the "orthodox" Karl Kautsky, to revolutionaries like Rosa Luxemburg and Marx himself. I'm not sure it is that useful of a term at present, due to its changed connotations post-WW2 and the broadness of the original subject matter.

"Sozialdemokratische" was originally a way around the German Reich's Anti-Socialist Laws, but no one felt particularly opposed to it as a construction until the Second International capitulated into supporting the First World War.

[The New Sea Territory]

You didn't answer my questions.

Side point, I want to live without a state. Government is a broader sense I don't take much issue with. However, I think you might brush nuance and differing definitions between these two terms in intellectual fields (political theory, sociology, philosophy) aside.

Anarchism is literally without a government and hierarchy.

Words can have multiple meanings, their colloquial use and their use in particular fields (philosophy, etc). What we are using it to refer to is an anti-authoritarian, anti-statist interpretation of socialism.

Also Chomsky supports Democratic Socialism not Anarchism. He may have some inspirations from Anarchism, but really he's a democratic socialist like me.

In all the works of Chomsky that I have read, I have seen no evidence of this.

My knowledge of his works is mostly from The Essential Chomsky, although On Anarchism hints to the opposite and the ideas of Manufacturing Consent are certainly not liberal. Also, he has published multiple books through Black Rose Press, an anarchist publisher (source).

This quote shows a bit of his political views:

"You can’t have meaningful political democracy without functioning economic democracy."

That is very specifically anti-capitalist. This one shows his anarchism more:

"Anarcho-syndicalism took for granted that working people ought to control their own work, its conditions, the enterprises in which they work, along with communities, so they should be associated with one another in free associations, and democracy of that kind should be the foundational elements of a more general free society."

Chomsky is by no means the most radical of the anarchist tradition, but he's a large contributor to anarchist theory.

[The New Sea Territory]

Indeed. And I say this as a Sanders supporter, and classical Social Democrat (i.e., the one person who is stereotyped as thinking such things). Capitalism with welfare and regulation is merely a stepping stone to true socialism.

Socialism has nothing to do with a collectivist USSR style Soviet Dictatorship. And Scandinavian Socialism is in no way a "stepping stone" to communism or anything.

Both of these are true, if quotes are supplied around "Scandinavian Socialism", and that's why they are both flawed.

[Socialist Women]

MRA is a right wing ideology, and goes against everything left wing. They Conservatives. Which supposedly goes against communism, despite the fact that communism as actually practiced is actually closer to fascism than anything

Some of that is factually wrong, as Olivaero has pointed out.

But I'm more interested in your wider angle here. Do you see being left-wing as a "package deal" where all your ideas must come from the left side of the spectrum? Do particular ideas or positions immediately remove someone from the left even if the overall tendency of the person's beliefs are on that side?

Have you seen mras in real life? Have you?
To answer your your other question, being left wing generally means you want more social equality. Communism puts the state above everything, while everyone else is equally poor. Kind of like a left wing fascism. Unlike communism, socialism puts the focus on social equality for everyone. Almost all of Denmark's policies would be considered socialist, there fore it is a socialist country.

[Socialist Women]

Socialism has nothing to do with a collectivist USSR style Soviet Dictatorship. And Scandinavian Socialism is in no way a "stepping stone" to communism or anything.

Both of these are true, if quotes are supplied around "Scandinavian Socialism", and that's why they are both flawed.

Enlighten me. Tell me how Anarchy and lawlessness are better than Scandinavian Socialism. Somalia, the only surviving anarchy in the world, is a lawless wasteland, while Denmark is a highly developed country with the happiest people in the world.

[Wulfenia]

Some of that is factually wrong, as Olivaero has pointed out.

But I'm more interested in your wider angle here. Do you see being left-wing as a "package deal" where all your ideas must come from the left side of the spectrum? Do particular ideas or positions immediately remove someone from the left even if the overall tendency of the person's beliefs are on that side?

Have you seen mras in real life? Have you?
To answer your your other question, being left wing generally means you want more social equality. Communism puts the state above everything, while everyone else is equally poor. Kind of like a left wiglng fascism. Unlike communism, socialism puts the focus on social equality for everyone. Almost all of Denmark's policies would be considered socialist, there fore it is a socialist country.

Denmark is a country which mixes welfare and collective bargaining with free market economics and private ownership of the means of production, it's not "socialist" by any stretch of the imagination. All you're doing is parroting those conservatives who think that any state-initiative in the private sphere is socialism.

The Marxist-Leninist state never spoke for all Communists and departed a lot from what Marx and Engels thought would be a dictatorship of the proletariat at the time. Though that's probably in their favor given they adapted with the times instead of staying orthodox.

[Socialist Women]

Have you seen mras in real life? Have you?
To answer your your other question, being left wing generally means you want more social equality. Communism puts the state above everything, while everyone else is equally poor. Kind of like a left wiglng fascism. Unlike communism, socialism puts the focus on social equality for everyone. Almost all of Denmark's policies would be considered socialist, there fore it is a socialist country.

Denmark is a country which mixes welfare and collective bargaining with free market economics and private ownership of the means of production, it's not "socialist" by any stretch of the imagination. All you're doing is parroting those conservatives who think that any state-initiative in the private sphere is socialism.

The Marxist-Leninist state never spoke for all Communists and departed a lot from what Marx and Engels thought would be a dictatorship of the proletariat at the time. Though that's probably in their favor given they adapted with the times instead of staying orthodox.

If that isn't communist, what is? What real world examples of communism can you actually name that were as significant as the ussr? And no, I am a socialist. I'm not parroting conservatives, if anything you are. They are making claims that "demark is a communist country!!!!" and " socialism is communism!!!!"

[United Muscovite Nations]

Denmark is a country which mixes welfare and collective bargaining with free market economics and private ownership of the means of production, it's not "socialist" by any stretch of the imagination. All you're doing is parroting those conservatives who think that any state-initiative in the private sphere is socialism.

The Marxist-Leninist state never spoke for all Communists and departed a lot from what Marx and Engels thought would be a dictatorship of the proletariat at the time. Though that's probably in their favor given they adapted with the times instead of staying orthodox.

If that isn't communist, what is? What real world examples of communism can you actually name that were as significant as the ussr? And no, I am a socialist. I'm not parroting conservatives, if anything you are. They are making claims that "demark is a communist country!!!!" and " socialism is communism!!!!"

Socialism, in the Marxian sense, is meant to be something between, in terms of epochs of history, between capitalism and communism. It is characterized by the state controlling the means of production, and the state being controlled by the working class. The Soviet Union was closer to the vision of socialism than Denmark is. Hence the name of the Soviet Union: Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

[Great Minarchistan]

You didn't answer my questions.

Side point, I want to live without a state. Government is a broader sense I don't take much issue with. However, I think you might brush nuance and differing definitions between these two terms in intellectual fields (political theory, sociology, philosophy) aside.

Anarchism is literally without a government and hierarchy. Also Chomsky supports Democratic Socialism not Anarchism. He may have some inspirations from Anarchism, but really he's a democratic socialist like me.

In the same manner that I believe people should be allowed to do what they want with their bodies, so too does this apply to food standards.
In other words, if people want to buy food that goes past the expiration date (as long as they are informed) they should be allowed to do so. Costs would go down tremendously.

As for your banter on the removal of all other regulations, that seems irrelevant.

Health and food safety regulations exist for a reason, they keep us safe.

But do we need a State telling us what and not to do? Pretty authoritarian imo.

[The Grene Knyght]

Anarchism is literally without a government and hierarchy. Also Chomsky supports Democratic Socialism not Anarchism. He may have some inspirations from Anarchism, but really he's a democratic socialist like me.
Health and food safety regulations exist for a reason, they keep us safe.

But do we need a State telling us what and not to do? Pretty authoritarian imo.

no ones saying you can't eat expired food tho.

[Great Minarchistan]

Almost all of Denmark's policies would be considered socialist, there fore it is a socialist country.

Might be the 100th time saying that but I don't bother, as long as people learn the difference: Denmark, as well as all of Scandinavia is social-democrat. Social democracy =/= Socialism

[The New Sea Territory]

Both of these are true, if quotes are supplied around "Scandinavian Socialism", and that's why they are both flawed.

Enlighten me. Tell me how Anarchy and lawlessness are better than Scandinavian Socialism.

Well, Scandinavian socialism doesn't exist, to start....they aren't socialist.

Somalia, the only surviving anarchy in the world, is a lawless wasteland, while Denmark is a highly developed country with the happiest people in the world.

You continue to argue against things we don't support. Provide a meaningful critique of worker-self management.

You still haven't backed down from your disproven claim that Chomsky isn't an anarchist.