UK Politics Thread 18-inch Mark VI: Witty Title Forthcoming

[Eastfield Lodge]

In other, related, news, the Daily Mail finds out that immigrants stealing jobs may not be the British worker's biggest problem.

[Ifreann]

We want people to think that the number of immigrants is going down, so lets stop counting all the immigrants.

Fuck, why keep immigration statistics at all, then? Just tell people they're going down. It'd be cheaper.

Are you going to engage with my argument or just ignore it?

I did engage with your argument. You argued that immigrants shouldn't be counted in immigration statistics since you're trying to bring them down, i.e. fiddle the numbers, cook the books, skew the stats to keep the public on side.

Would someone less privileged be prevented from speaking their own language by someone else speaking a different one?

They can speak their own language. They should also speak English. It was identified for instance that Muslim women are the least likely to be able to speak English due to patriarchal opinions keeping them repressed. They don't even have the opportunity to integrate or the chance to participate in the wider community, because among other things they are denied this fundamental requisite.

So offer them the opportunity. But you can't force them to learn if they don't want to. Horses and water and all that.

And if they don't learn English to your satisfaction, then what? Throw them out of the country?

Multiculturalism has resulted in lost of trust between different communities and reduced faith in institutions.

Yes.

I don't think your source supports your argument that multiculturalism has resulted in lost trust between different communities.

Also, look at the distrust between the Bengali community and other communities in Tower Hamlets as a result of the client politics that got Luftur Rahmen elected and subsequently removed (because wouldn't you believe it, favouring certain ethnic interests is corruption). Had these client politics, which are acceptable in Bangaladeshi politics, been challenged and not tolerated, it wouldn't had happened.

So it is your contention that the problem here is that there is are Bengali and Bangladeshi communities in Tower Hamlets? Because I would have said that the problem is political corruption.

Where a desire what? Exists?

And why shouldn't people want to protect their own cultural norms? You're threatening them. You're trying to take their way of life away from them and replace it with your own.

All I'm saying is they should integrate, unless they want to sew

A needle pulling thread. You mean "sow".

further mistrust and racism. If we have immigrants our coming to our country they should be thankful towards us and be accepting of the values we believe they should follow. It's not too much to ask.

Fuck that. Try and lord your generosity and tolerance over people and tell them that they owe you gratitude for it and they'll call you a cunt, or whatever the relevant insult would be in their own language. You're not gonna foster trust and solidarity like that.

Sure. You should challenge harmful ideas held by British citizens as well.

Is this insinuating I don't already do this?

No. Just making the point that harmful ideas should be challenged regardless of who is holding them. It shouldn't be something limited to immigrants.

And why promote the sort of ideas that allow FGM to be tolerated?

I don't know, you tell me. Because it seems to me that government enforced cultural heterogeneity is more likely to lead to tolerance of harmful ideas, like acceptance of female genital mutilation. After all, the government isn't going to be imposing your personal interpretation of British values. Even if it was a Labour government doing it, you don't dictate Labour policy. What happens when the Tories take charge of the culture police? Or, gods forbid, UKIP or Britain First or the EDL? What happens when some future government decides that British values means monarchism is right and proper and republicanism is unacceptable? What happens if Ostro takes charge and starts rounding up Jews for mutilating their sons along with the Muslims who mutilate their daughters?

And the answer is to only permit in immigrants who meet with the approval of the Tories?

Of British society, which is governed by HM's government.

So yes, the Tories, who are currently HM's government. I know that UKIP getting what they wanted is bringing down their party, but I don't think that that's a wise tactic to employ to try to bring down the Tory party.

"Dated" is an interesting way to describe values you disapprove of. Are British values not themselves centuries old?

Mainstream society becomes more and more modernised, so yes British values do become modernised, as opposed to Saudi ones which are stuck in the first millenia.

The Christian values adopted in Britain originated in the first millennium(by definition, in fact) and pre-date Islam. Jewish values are older still. If it were up to you, would Labour be telling British Jews to put aside their outdated views, get with the times, and work on the Sabbath?

It's obviously useful for people living in an English speaking country to understand English, but if they prefer to speak some other language then let them at it, I say.

I disagree. They should be out the country, there's more to immigrating to this country then being 'good for the economy' and 'essential to services'. You should participate in civic life too.

If people want to, and can, they will, especially if they see some value in it for themselves and those they care about. But if it's an obligation, a condition of remaining in the UK, then they'll treat it like an obligation being imposed on them and do the bare minimum to avoid getting in trouble.

Why? British people reject British values and social norms and segregate themselves, and they don't get kicked out of the country for it.

We should challenge them, but we can't get rid of them, they're citizens and they have all the entitlements associated with it.

Entitlements can be taken away. The difference between citizens and immigrants isn't written into the fabric of reality. It's written into laws, and laws can be changed, especially in Britain with your parliamentary sovereignty. It's already happening. The entitlements associated with EU citizenship are being taken away from all British citizens, unless that whatchamacallit associate citizenship thing works out.

If you think that it is acceptable to deport immigrants because they hold views that you don't think should be accepted in Britain, then tell me why citizens holding those same views shouldn't be on the boat with them, beyond the fact that they are citizens.

With immigrants it's different - we citizens are letting them into our country, we expect them to fulfill a number of obligations that we set. If they don't, we can kick them out of the country. It's like saying instead of deporting immigrants who commit crimes to their own country (assuming they're treated humanely), we should imprison them because they're equal to their own citizens... no they're not, they violated the terms of their visa arrangement.

Imprisoning them sounds perfectly sensible to me. But I have weird ideas about all people being equal, regardless of paperwork.

If they got a problem and want to be 'good for the economy' somewhere else, they can do that. Also a number of people with regressive, unculturally British values are themselves British citizens - this is about encouraging them to integrate too.

Encouraging them to integrate, on pain of nothing, whereas you would be legally requiring immigrants to integrate on pain of deportation.

Incidentally, that turning people into soap thing is probably one of those values held by Britons that you should challenge.

I do.

Government approved British gesture of approval, citizen.

You're essentially disagreeing with years of research that has been done into this problem, which I pretty much agree with.

Again, don't think I've said anything about the Casey Report or disputed its findings.

---

I really am trying to be as nice as I possibly can to you. Like you I am an intelligent human being. Are you going to respectfully engage in an argument?

Sure. You seem to believe it rather important that people in Britain speak English, so I am respecting that. If it's annoying you then I'll stop, of course.

Because if you're not then I don't think I'll argue this with you. You knew exactly what I meant by this too.

I have no idea what you meant by "individualises his own experience". I don't know if it's even meant to be a bad thing. Like, should I be generalising my experiences instead? Or collectivising them? Should I be individualising something else?

I don't think I'm a sufficiently metropolitan liberal to grok your jargon.

[Dooom35796821595]

In other, related, news, the Daily Mail finds out that immigrants stealing jobs may not be the British worker's biggest problem.

That's not necessarily a problem, so long as the government adapts to something like a negative income tax, or universal income. There will be other changes required as the situation develops.

[Souseiseki]

We want people to think that the number of immigrants is going down, so lets stop counting all the immigrants.

Fuck, why keep immigration statistics at all, then? Just tell people they're going down. It'd be cheaper.

this is either the worst most unworkable idea ever or the best idea ever and i'm not sure why. it's amazing because i legitimately can't tell whether it would work or not.

[Napkiraly]

Yes.

I don't think your source supports your argument that multiculturalism has resulted in lost trust between different communities.

Well according to those research papers, it certainly does if there is no effort to create what is essentially colour blindness in the community. The easiest way of course to achieve this is to have members of minority groups assimilate into the majority and an assimilation process that takes the route of a melting pot also ensures that the host culture remains receptive to some amount of outside influence.

[Souseiseki]

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/12 ... brexit-lie

control status: taken back

[Ifreann]

We want people to think that the number of immigrants is going down, so lets stop counting all the immigrants.

Fuck, why keep immigration statistics at all, then? Just tell people they're going down. It'd be cheaper.

this is either the worst most unworkable idea ever or the best idea ever and i'm not sure why. it's amazing because i legitimately can't tell whether it would work or not.

It'd fall at the first hurdle, because the "Look, just stop counting how many immigrants there are and tell us the numbers are falling" memo would get leaked.

[South Park Labourite]

I don't think your source supports your argument that multiculturalism has resulted in lost trust between different communities.

Well according to those research papers, it certainly does if there is no effort to create what is essentially colour blindness in the community. The easiest way of course to achieve this is to have members of minority groups assimilate into the majority and an assimilation process that takes the route of a melting pot also ensures that the host culture remains receptive to some amount of outside influence.

Dirty, despicable racist. Why can't you be as tolerant as Ifreann?

[Alvecia]

In other, related, news, the Daily Mail finds out that immigrants stealing jobs may not be the British worker's biggest problem.

So long as they're made in Britain.
British jobs for British robots!

[Souseiseki]

Well according to those research papers, it certainly does if there is no effort to create what is essentially colour blindness in the community. The easiest way of course to achieve this is to have members of minority groups assimilate into the majority and an assimilation process that takes the route of a melting pot also ensures that the host culture remains receptive to some amount of outside influence.

Dirty, despicable racist. Why can't you be as tolerant as Ifreann?

i can't be arsed reading the entire conversation but i want to know if you have any personal experience with a significant number of non-integrating immigrants

[South Park Labourite]

Dirty, despicable racist. Why can't you be as tolerant as Ifreann?

i can't be arsed reading the entire conversation but i want to know if you have any personal experience with a significant number of non-integrating immigrants

Yes. Do you?

[Ifreann]

I don't think your source supports your argument that multiculturalism has resulted in lost trust between different communities.

Well according to those research papers, it certainly does if there is no effort to create what is essentially colour blindness in the community. The easiest way of course to achieve this is to have members of minority groups assimilate into the majority and an assimilation process that takes the route of a melting pot also ensures that the host culture remains receptive to some amount of outside influence.

If people don't trust people who are different from them, is that because multiculturalism somehow made them lose the trust they had, or did they start off not trusting each other and stayed that way?

---

Well according to those research papers, it certainly does if there is no effort to create what is essentially colour blindness in the community. The easiest way of course to achieve this is to have members of minority groups assimilate into the majority and an assimilation process that takes the route of a melting pot also ensures that the host culture remains receptive to some amount of outside influence.

Dirty, despicable racist. Why can't you be as tolerant as Ifreann?

I really am trying to be as nice as I possibly can to you. Like you I am an intelligent human being. Are you going to respectfully engage in an argument? Because if you're not then I don't think I'll argue this with you.

[Souseiseki]

i can't be arsed reading the entire conversation but i want to know if you have any personal experience with a significant number of non-integrating immigrants

Yes. Do you?

can't say i have tbh. maybe we're just doing a better job than you?

[Ifreann]

Yes. Do you?

can't say i have tbh. maybe we're just doing a better job than you?

Are you making them all speak Scottish and wear kilts instead of burkas?

[Great Nepal]

We have clearification from May on what Brexit means; I know previous definition was rather tautological so she has fleshed it out this time. Brexit means Red White and Blue Brexit.

[Geilinor]

Your words, not mine. Like the majority of the country I don't have an objection to international students because they're universally beneficial to the country. Students are a special kind of immigrant - they aren't here long term, they contribute to keeping our university system intact, they don't bring dependents, they almost always speak English, they bring lots of money to spend etc. Only 20% of people think they should be included in immigration statistics because most see the benefits of students here - for that reason, it's a bit ridiculous to include a kind of immigrant that the public doesn't see as bad inside statistics we're actively trying to reduce.

We want people to think that the number of immigrants is going down, so lets stop counting all the immigrants.

Fuck, why keep immigration statistics at all, then? Just tell people they're going down. It'd be cheaper.

The Tories are already planning to subtract students and tell people immigration is going down.

[Alvecia]

can't say i have tbh. maybe we're just doing a better job than you?

Are you making them all speak Scottish and wear kilts instead of burkas?

Three factors contribute to this perception: smaller number of Muslim migrants, less fear of terrorism and the particular features of Scottish people.

I lol'd

[The Huskar Social Union]

can't say i have tbh. maybe we're just doing a better job than you?

Are you making them all speak Scottish and wear kilts instead of burkas?

They were all born scottish, they just didnt know it yet

[Ifreann]

We have clearification from May on what Brexit means; I know previous definition was rather tautological so she has fleshed it out this time. Brexit means Red White and Blue Brexit.

Allez les bleu brexit?

---

We want people to think that the number of immigrants is going down, so lets stop counting all the immigrants.

Fuck, why keep immigration statistics at all, then? Just tell people they're going down. It'd be cheaper.

The Tories are already planning to subtract students and tell people immigration is going down.

Yes, that's exactly what we were talking about.

---

Are you making them all speak Scottish and wear kilts instead of burkas?

Three factors contribute to this perception: smaller number of Muslim migrants, less fear of terrorism and the particular features of Scottish people.

I lol'd

Scottish: +2 tolerance of heathens

[Souseiseki]

you gotta bet she was up all night thinking of that one

"omg, red white and blue brexit!!! like our flag! how patriotic!"

countdown to "red and white brexit" and "red, white and green brexit" starts now

[Salandriagado]

I like the introduction of new food personally.

Me too. I love the Narborough Road in Leicester.

*Nods*. I used to live there. Haven't found anywhere as good for takeaways since.

Am I the only one curious about 'British values' bit? Do we have a ministry that sets them, or is it done by sacred meeting for eight knights of the relam as they discuss what values are worthy to be called British values. Also has the value committee recently met to change it such that putting more than four fingers in an orifice is now contrary to the Great British value^tm.

We've already established that British values don't include all values that the majority of the population hold, nor are all British values ones that the whole population holds. Specifically, I'm pretty sure that "British values", in this context, means "Wolfmanne's values".

[Hydesland]

Diane Abbott: 'Labour has never had an open-door immigration policy'

[Cherya]

Religious intolerance, tribalistic conflict and sectarian division is not something to encourage. Anyone who has lived through a civil war will tell you the same. You don't have to look far or even to another country - just turn your eye to Ulster and the horrors the 'Troubles' brought.

And isn't it strange that under the current government it is immigrants and people on benefits in the UK that have become the subject of abuse and the target for hatred while the ruling class, bankers and other elites who have inflicted the hardship on our country are able to avoid being troubled at all.
When the fat cat tells you that your fellow man is the source of your problems - don't be a fool and swallow such nonsense. Austerity is a tool used by the ruling elite to their own ends, time and time again.

This is the formula : Economic crash caused by manipulation by elites = extreme poverty = use of a scapegoat = radicalisation and fascism = War.. End result is the lower classes are thinned out in their numbers and kept in their place at the bottom and the rich get richer and the elites position is secured for another generation or two.

And why would they change when it works so well and we allow them to so easily breed division between us and enable them to control us? Wake up!

And all mainstream Uk political parties are all just the same people who all laugh behind your back at how much they've got you fighting over which tastes better when the piss is poured from the same barrell that you swallow so readily. Labour/Tory, same thing, same schools, they all drink together and laugh at the plebs (you and I.) But even they are just tools for the mechanisms and ruling elites who control this world. The Babylon System is a vampire.

They Live, We Sleep.

[Hydesland]

become the subject of abuse and the target for hatred while the ruling class, bankers and other elites who have inflicted the hardship on our country are able to avoid being troubled at all.

Yes I've definitely not seen abusive vitriol targeted at bankers or politicians, not once.

[Vassenor]

become the subject of abuse and the target for hatred while the ruling class, bankers and other elites who have inflicted the hardship on our country are able to avoid being troubled at all.

Yes I've definitely not seen abusive vitriol targeted at bankers or politicians, not once.

When was the last time a banker was subjected to hate crime?